Prototype Carniculture Technology relevant to life support in hostile environments

[Spinward Flow]

I'm figuring that this "fork on the tech tree" is going to be relevant to both terrestrial and space based nutrition production. The net result is that the production of proteins begins to decouple from "land area" needed to produce those proteins. Once "farmland" is no longer (as) necessary for the production process to make proteins for consumption, a lot of the production can be moved into laboratory settings in which greater (designer) control over the end products becomes possible. Once you have laboratories capable of producing meat proteins, that has implications for life support in hostile environments (such as space habitats, etc.).

I presume that technology along these lines is necessary in order to provide for the basic nutritional needs of populations on Non-agricultural worlds in Traveller, although (obviously) "vertical farming" and other "laboratory" environments for the growing of plants at an industrial scale to feed a population of millions to billions would obviously complement the type of carniculture technology being discussed in the above video.

In an interstellar culture, the ability to source FOOD and DRINK from somewhere other than the "natural" environment becomes absolutely critical to both interplanetary and interstellar expansion of that species. After all, if you can't eat/drink (or breathe) wherever you're going, you aren't going to be staying (alive) there all that long.



What this suggests to me is that Tony Seeba is RIGHT in his assumption that "older" artisanal means of agricultural production will continue, but will become niche premium products sought after by those who can afford them (and have the requisite tastes to support those producers). Viewed more broadly, this would in turn mean that worlds coded with the Agricultural trade code are worlds which have "enough" of these artisanal agricultural producers to supply an interstellar export market with their "unique" (to each world) agricultural products. It means that the artisanal farming methods are economically viable enough to compete in interstellar markets ... much like how wagyu beef now has an international cache to it which can command a premium price outside of Japan. Likewise, champagne can only be grown and bottled in a specific region of France, but has an international standing sufficient to support the export of that specific product around the world.

It doesn't mean that "everyone on an agricultural world is a farmer" (per se) ... but it does mean that (artisanal) terrestrial agriculture production is a large enough segment of the local world economy to be able to export agricultural production to interstellar markets, even if there are "cheaper local alternatives" in those interstellar markets (see: wagyu beef and champagne for market corollaries).

 

[whartung]

Well, it's back to the whole "abundance" economy. When you have unlimited power and now you can do things like "power == food", the calculus changes. Every world can become an A world. For basic sustenance, all worlds can be self sufficient. The only export/import business would be exotic delicacies that cannot be grown in either a greenhouse or a vat.

This reminds of the story of a pizza restaurant in Arizona. And one of the things that they did was analyze the water in New York so that they can make their own "New York Water" (in terms of mineral content) to make their pizza taste more authentic.

All of this still has to stand up against the cheap travel and shipping in the Traveller universe. How many million tons of rice are moved across the planet each year, for example.

I don't see the vat beef industry necessarily disrupting the conventional beef industry that quickly (10 years). They still have to scale up. They still have to fight the forces that run the meat industry today (and who are likely not willing to go quietly). You'd like to think it would work well for developing countries, but there's still the cap ex to build new plants vs having meat shipped internationally.

 

[coliver988]

Well, it's back to the whole "abundance" economy. When you have unlimited power and now you can do things like "power == food", the calculus changes. Every world can become an A world. For basic sustenance, all worlds can be self sufficient. The only export/import business would be exotic delicacies that cannot be grown in either a greenhouse or a vat.

This reminds of the story of a pizza restaurant in Arizona. And one of the things that they did was analyze the water in New York so that they can make their own "New York Water" (in terms of mineral content) to make their pizza taste more authentic.

All of this still has to stand up against the cheap travel and shipping in the Traveller universe. How many million tons of rice are moved across the planet each year, for example.

I don't see the vat beef industry necessarily disrupting the conventional beef industry that quickly (10 years). They still have to scale up. They still have to fight the forces that run the meat industry today (and who are likely not willing to go quietly). You'd like to think it would work well for developing countries, but there's still the cap ex to build new plants vs having meat shipped internationally.

why it is illegal to have lab-grown meat in Florida - those forces are fighting back hard now as they see the writing on the wall.

Warning: this discussion could end in the Pit, just reinforcing that there are strong market forces to prevent this from happening in several places.

 

[Condottiere]

I rather suspect it depends on who's doing the regulating.

 

[bookwyrm]

For a long time I've been wondering how much population an Ag planet of Pop 5-7 & TL 3+ can support with it's exports. Are there even enough Ag planets to support all of the Hi Pop, Po, Na & Va/As worlds?

And then there's the Va & As planets. The ones with a high enough TL and Pop 4-8 might be able to export food, just not at the scale of Ag planets. I was thinking of how in 'The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress', the Lunar Colony was a bread basket for the exploding population of mother Earth.

 

[Spinward Flow]

For a long time I've been wondering how much population an Ag planet of Pop 5-7 & TL 3+ can support with it's exports.

Here's an easy touchstone example of that.

2x Industrial mainworlds (Aki and Glisten).
1x Non-agricultural mainworld (Glisten).
1x Poor mainworld (Aki).
1x Rich mainworld (Sorel).
2x Agricultural mainworlds (Overnale and Sorel).
2x Non-industrial mainworlds (Overnale and Sorel).

Both Overnale and Sorel have Population: 6, but Sorel is TL=2 and the only 1G surface gravity mainworld in the J1 from Glisten grouping.

Are there even enough Ag planets to support all of the Hi Pop, Po, Na & Va/As worlds?

You need to use a trade coded portolan sector map in order to see it (as I did in my re-mapping of the Spinward Marches in 1105 thread). When you can SEE the trade codes and population ranges at a glance on the sector map, a lot of (interstellar economy) things start jumping out and begin demanding attention.

• The Darrians were "really unlucky" with their starting zone mainworld, because a LOT of the worlds around them are Poor trade codes, meaning that they do not support life all that well, making them somewhat dependent on support (usually from elsewhere). They've even got multiple Non-agricultural + Poor mainworlds in the Darrian Confederacy that I can only imagine require significant trade flows to sustain and maintain.
• By contrast, the Sword Worlds have 3x Agricultural mainworlds, 3x Rich mainworlds and another 3x Agricultural + Rich mainworlds, along with 3x Industrial mainworlds in their subsector under control of the Sword Worlds Confederation.
• Just looking at the map, if you "marry up" the various trade codes that "need" each other, you can start to see where some of the trade route flows "need" to be, just in order for settlements to SURVIVE (never mind thrive). A LOT of the Spinward Marches sector amounts to "unique fixer upper" worlds that have been in various stages of "under development" for CENTURIES. There are (repeat) failures as colony projects. There are Boom & Bust mainworlds where the boom is in the past and the bust has settled in for the long haul.

Once you start looking at sector maps with more of an "archipelago eye" with jump routes amounting to "island hopping" for trade, all kinds of things start suggesting themselves as far as story ideas go.

 

[kilemall]

I’ve been assuming the industrialized food for non-ag and boutique premium for ag worlds shipping to non-ag all along. The latter if for no other reason than cost of shipping vs likely profit, most ag products don’t ship well past a few parsecs.

I would assume food is expensive in food deserts, particularly anything better than subsistence. Multiples on daily/weekly costs should apply based on TL, ag trade codes, rich/poor, and non-Ind/ind. For non-atmo/water planets some some fraction of life support should apply.

Ind is an interesting choice, should it be abundant or shortage due to high population/pollution planet?

 

[coliver988]

I’ve been assuming the industrialized food for non-ag and boutique premium for ag worlds shipping to non-ag all along. The latter if for no other reason than cost of shipping vs likely profit, most ag products don’t ship well past a few parsecs.

I would assume food is expensive in food deserts, particularly anything better than subsistence. Multiples on daily/weekly costs should apply based on TL, ag trade codes, rich/poor, and non-Ind/ind. For non-atmo/water planets some some fraction of life support should apply.

Ind is an interesting choice, should it be abundant or shortage due to high population/pollution planet?

for hi-pop worlds, try the Soylent Green.