Proto-High Guard 5, take two

[Ulsyus]

Rock/Paper/Scissors -- I'd like this to have a psychological element. A player takes risks that can be successful if he can judge what the other player is likely to do.

But, I don't think he's thinking of an overly abstract combat model. As in, roll 1D for one dreadnought to attack another dreadnought. Big Ships with One Spine made a design choice for a reason. That reason would presumably be part of the combat model. And it could be part of a Rock/Paper/Scissors rule.

If there was to be a design system that's an updated T5-ified version of HG then there'd be a fair bit of definition in there. But, I s'pose a lot of what comes out the back end of the system is up to the design evaluation phase that pumps out the actual game stats.

So something less than BR, but more than Imperium/Dark Nebula is the vibe I'm getting.

 

[Ulsyus]

It sounds like thousand-ton "fighters" would be represented by a cloud, a mass counter, doesn't it?

Unless he's thinking of a mini rider: 1000dT of pure drives and the heaviest armament possible, manoeuvring in numbers large enough to give pause to an opponents escorts, opening up a way for battle cruisers to scoot in and support the BatRons in taking on the enemy heavies.

When you think about it, 1000 x 10dT fighters might not have much punch, may not be able to affect a capital vessel. But 10 x 1000dT "fighters" may have a much better chance.

 

[robject]

Unless he's thinking of a mini rider: 1000dT of pure drives and the heaviest armament possible, manoeuvring in numbers large enough to give pause to an opponents escorts, opening up a way for battle cruisers to scoot in and support the BatRons in taking on the enemy heavies.

Probably a mini-rider, yes, but not significant enough to be represented by a counter... Marc mentioned "100,000 ton riders". That's 6 times the size of a Nolikian. Imagine the armament that thing could pack.

 

[robject]

Stripped-Down Test Rules 'Alpha'

Not even as developed as Mayday. Just three pieces of data, not including damage marks.

No crew rating or leadership rules.
No tactical matrix.
No differentiation between ship designs.
A strong advantage to superior TL.

Ship data:

• TL.
• Movement rating.
• Jump/Hop/Skip rating.

Vector movement on a hexmat.

Attacks are nearly completely generalized, and defenses are assumed to be complete.

Attack task: nD < Attack value [+ target's damage level]

Attack difficulty is range, minus the attacker's TL, plus the defender's TL, with a minimum of 1D. Example: a unit attacks an adjacent hex at 1D difficulty, regardless of how much more advanced it is than its target.

The main guns' Attack value equals TL, and typically point in the direction of the nose. A ship cannot accelerate when firing its main gun.

The secondary guns' Attack value is 2. Secondary batteries are omnidirectional.

A successful attack adds 1 to the target's damage level. Each damage level represents -1 to movement and jump, as well as a reduction in defenses.


Example "Ships" (Name-TL, Jump, Maneuver)

Asoka-14 J5 M2
Kugganzir-14 J3 M6
Nolan-15 J0 M6
Plankeye-15 J4 M5
Targetess-15 J4 M6

As you can see, not much differentiation here...

 

[JFGarber]

That's straightforward enough. What role does Jump rating play?

 

[Reban]

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In combat, things smaller than Cruisers are abstract. I don't know if that means grouped into counters, or if they are FEATURES of the capital ships themselves (that is possible).

I suspect there will be times when smaller units can have their own counter -- a large number of single-person fighters sent to destroy the Death Star -- but they're likely to be represented by a single counter (plus one for the Millennium Falcon, of course).

But I bet that's an edge case.

So: expect to see Ships of the Line and Cruisers.
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A 100,000 ton Rider is a bruiser to be sure. This sounds like Marc thinks of Nolikians as Cruisers, which is not unreasonable.

It sounds like thousand-ton "fighters" would be represented by a cloud, a mass counter, doesn't it?

And I think he's got "Monitor" mixed up with "Sentinel", but he tends not to mix things up in that way, so this sounds like a change in terms for "Monitor"... or maybe such a ship needs every possible nook and cranny for defenses, to the exclusion of significant maneuver... so it's a Denial of Entry force, a Roadblock, something that protects a planet or immobile resource.

I really should follow Robject's posts more closely....

Monitor actually appears as a term in ACS on p.331 and is a defensive ship, favoring armor over firepower. Sentinels are for countering attacks from the surface.

You know there's an argument for both grouping cruisers (and other auxiliaries) as counters or attaching them to BCS ships or BCS Squadrons. I'm making that point because it apes real world naval practice but I'm going to try and justify it in game terms as follows:

Grouping cruisers as a counter and calling it the Xth Cruiser Squadron is tidy, it relieves the players from having to worry about the details that don't make an impact at the level of detail BCS combat should deal with.

Attaching individual cruisers to a BCS ship could be handled as a bonus to the BCS ship's defenses simulating how the cruiser would lend its defenses to intercepting fire aimed at the BCS ship.

I'm using the term cruiser in both cases but I'm assuming that "cruiser" also covers smaller escorts and destroyers.

1000ton fighters? Thats a bit of a puzzler really, unless you handle 1000ton destroyer flotillas as "fighter squadrons".

The other way of reading it is a fighter counter represents up to 1000tons of craft, so 20 Heavy 50ton Fighters, or 100 10ton Fighters, something like a squadron or a wing.

 

[Ulsyus]

Just three pieces of data, not including damage marks.

No crew rating or leadership rules.
No tactical matrix.
No differentiation between ship designs.
A strong advantage to superior TL.

Nice. No need for a tactical matrix if everything's being done on a hexmat, as that allows all sides to just vector along according to their plans and see if the individual's tactics are solid or not. It also sorts out the spatially competent from the boys, so to speak.

Attack task: nD < Attack value [+ target's damage level]

How do you envisage later adding detail to differentiate between vessels? Mods to range & attack value, adding defence values, crew mods?

A ship cannot accelerate when firing its main gun.

What, not even when firing along the line it is thrusting on?

Great start. Have you tried playing it out yet?

 

[robject]

How do you envisage later adding detail to differentiate between vessels? Mods to range & attack value, adding defence values, crew mods?

What's going to happen here is that I'm going to throw away a lot of rules. So, I post small sets of rules, I try them out and see what they are like, and then see if I can learn some lessons for the next iteration.

 

[Ulsyus]

Got it.

My hex-mat is out, the ship figures have been dusted off, and I'll print out a few ship data cards (such as they are) today and see if I can enlist the young fella to give me a hand tonight trying these out.

 

[robject]

How do you envisage later adding detail to differentiate between vessels? Mods to range & attack value, adding defence values, crew mods?

I think about this every time I think about fleet combat.

Ships in these sorts of games often have a short list of weapons and defenses -- in fact, it is almost like player character equipment. He's got a Laser Rifle with a medium-range reach, and it does 3D damage. But it doesn't do any damage against Reflec. And he's wearing combat armor with a reflec coating.

The difference is that capital ships have several weapons, and several defenses, AND that they'll tend to be highly vulnerable to attacks above their TL (e.g. meson guns against lower-TL ships). Even though there are a dozen weapon types, TL is primary, and effects are secondary.

The statistical difference is that a TL advantage is significant.

The result is that a TL difference also changes the way both sides fight. Or at least that's the way I think it ought to work.

For example, if your Tigress fights my Lightning-class Cruisers, they're not going to split up (unless they're fleeing), and they might not choose a head-on attack (or maybe they are?).

But we want to get from these:

Asoka-14 J5 M2
Kugganzir-14 J3 M6
Nolan-15 J0 M6
Plankeye-15 J4 M5
Targetess-15 J3 M6

...to something more like these:

(note: the "+" sign on the defense means all lower-TL defenses also present)

Lightning-14  J5 M2, AV14, Spine PA,    LBay Dampers+, LBay Ortillery
Kokirrak-14,  J3 M6, AV14, Spine Meson, LBay Screens+, LBay PA,  LBay PA, etc.
Nolikian-15,  J0 M6, AV10, Spine Meson, Bay Screens+,  Bay PA,   Bay PA, etc.
Plankwell-15, J4 M5, AV15, Spine Meson, LBay Screens+, LBay PA,  LBay PA+, etc.
Tigress-15,   J3 M6, AV18, Spine Meson, LBay Screens+, LBay PA+, LBay PA+, etc.

Combined with:

Skimkish (29k)   J4 M2 0* Basic Defenses   1 Wing
Antiama (100k)   J4 M2 0+                  4 Wings
Lurenti (300k)   J4 M2 -*                  2 Wings 7 Riders

Nolikian (20k)   J0 M6 m* 
Gionetti (30k)   J5 M5 m- 
Troyhune (50k)   J0 M6 m-                  1 Wing
Arakoine (50k)   J4 M4 m+ 
Ghalalk  (50k)   J4 M5 p+ 
Lightning (60k)  J5 M2 p+ Ortillery
Atlantic (75k)   J4 M5 m+ 
Wind (75k)       J3 M6 m+                  1 Wing

Plankwell (200k) J4 M5 m+ 
Kokirrak (200k)  J3 M6 m+ 1000 Troops
Tigress (500k)   J3 M6 m+ Strong Defenses  4 Wings

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[robject]

Stripped-Down Test Rules 'Alpha'

No crew rating or leadership rules.
No tactical matrix.
No differentiation between ship designs.
A strong advantage to superior TL.

Ship data:

• TL.
• Movement rating.
• Jump/Hop/Skip rating.

Vector movement on a hexmat.

Attacks are nearly completely generalized, and defenses are assumed to be complete.

Attack task: nD < Attack value [+ target's damage level]

Attack difficulty is range, minus the attacker's TL, plus the defender's TL, with a minimum of 1D. Example: a unit attacks an adjacent hex at 1D difficulty, regardless of how much more advanced it is than its target.

The main guns' Attack value equals TL, and typically point in the direction of the nose. A ship cannot accelerate when firing its main gun.

The secondary guns' Attack value is 2. Secondary batteries are omnidirectional.

A successful attack adds 1 to the target's damage level. Each damage level represents -1 to movement and jump, as well as a reduction in defenses.

I played about six turns, maybe 20 minutes total, with three TL15 ships (M4, M2, and M1) against four TL14 ships (M6, M6, M6, and M1).

For "vector" movement, I plotted the ships' "next position" using a small coin (Cr25 coins for the TL15 ships, 1 yen pieces for the TL14's), and the ships would change the marker based on their current maneuver capability. I would let a ship turn freely one hex for 1 maneuver rating.

The skirmish proper took place within about a 16 x 16 hex area on the hexmat. The ship pieces were oversized, being maybe 2.5" long compared with 1" hexes. I "centered" the movement based on the hex the cockpit was in, and used the entire ship when calculating distances to other ships. So each ship had a bit of an extra "reach", which I found nice.

The TL14 ships were just plain outgunned; superior maneuver didn't help them, although if I had played another session they might have figured out some sort of tactic. The M1 ship was disabled, and would have drifted off the stage in three turns.

Stay at least *four* hexes from a superior enemy; at 3 hexes distance, a TL15 ship attacks a TL14 ship with 2D, guaranteed to hit.

Better, get BEHIND a superior enemy. I should have seen this at the outset; it would be the only way they'd have a chance. But even then, they might only get one free attack.

The secondary weapons came in handy for the TL15 fleet once, and only once -- but where one damage point lowers your maneuver AND defenses, once hurts plenty and pays for itself.

Anyway,superior TL is more important than numbers AND maneuver combined. I'm not sure if TL is supposed to trump everything combined in a "conforming" Traveller wargame.

Good:

• Acceptably fast.
• The "next position" movement seemed to work okay. Plotting vector-like movement is the number one time consuming element of these rules.
• "Main gun fires nose-ward" works well.
• The damage mechanic seemed to work well.
• The TL difference as a difficulty mod worked GREAT.
• The minor but occasionally useful rule for secondary batteries worked.
• Maneuver essentially equals Hit Points: once your damage equals maneuver, you're adrift.

Possible Additions and Changes:

• Use TL only in the design phase.
• Leadership and Morale factors -- an Admiral for each side, and Veteran/Green crew.
• Main weapon strength varies based on the spine's selected strength and ship TL.
• Not All Secondaries Are Created Equal.
• Defense ratings need a "type" or "limitation" when figuring attacks. E.G. ineffective versus certain weapon types (MESON GUNS).
• Fighter rules.
• Missile salvo rules.
• TL might not TRUMP maneuver rating (i.e. "tactical rules").
• Repair rules.
• Collision rules (for fun).
• Gravity rules.
• Jump Scatter rules.
• Jump Arrival Time rules.
• Rules for "outsystem" part of hexmat ("all hexes count double").
• Tactical rules -- flanking and screening.
• Task forces?
• POINT-BUY SYSTEM for building ships of various classes (Dreadnought > Cruiser).

The first few elements there shows how the "ship card" can develop. If I use all of those elements, the ship card grows to:

• Ship Strength (Attack/Defense value)
• Jump
• Maneuver
• Crew Experience
• Main weapon type (or maybe just Effect)
• Secondary weapons Effect
• Defensive type/Effect
• [Fighters, if any]
• [etc]

That's a minimum of 7 points of data. An example, with corresponding Zhodani lower-TL counterparts, might be:

Tigress    (16) J3 M6 Vet / Spine Meson / PA 2- / Screens  +4 HF
Kokirrak   (15) J3 M6     / Spine Meson / PA 2- / Globe    +1000 T
Plankwell  (15) J4 M5     / Spine Meson / PA 2- / Globe
Nolikian   (13) J0 M6     / Spine Meson / PA 3- / Screens
Antiama    (15) J4 M2     / No Spine    / G 3-  / Screens  +4 HF
Wind       (14) J3 M6     / Spine Meson / PA 2- / Screens  +1 HF
Lightning  (13) J5 M2 Vet / Spine PA    / Q 2-  / Dampers

Zho 500k   (15) J3 M6 Vet / Spine Meson / PA 2- / Screens  +2 HF
Zho 200k   (14) J3 M6     / Spine Meson / PA 2- / Screens  +500 T
Zho 200k   (14) J4 M5     / Spine Meson / PA 2- / Screens
Zho 20k    (12) J0 M6     / Spine Meson / PA 2- / Screens
Zho 100k   (14) J4 M2     / No Spine    / G 2-  / Screens  +2 HF
Zho 75k    (13) J3 M6     / Spine Meson / PA 2- / Screens
Zho 60k    (12) J5 M2 Vet / Spine PA    / Q 2-  / Dampers

The Tigress is a big ship indeed; it'll have a big spine (= TL+1, and same goes for defenses). Cruisers have TL-1 on main weapons and defenses. Long-ranged weapons cost more but add 1 to the attack value. Short-ranged weapons are cheaper and subtract 1 from the attack value.

I think "Ship Strength" is going to be 10 through 33, corresponding to TL and size, and there are alternate configurations that could split weapon strength: a "hedgehog" configuration, for example. And there are multiple-barrel main guns for special purposes. That's also how I would like to handle secondaries: lump all of them into one type, but allow a wide variety of effects. Same with defenses.

Jump is the most expensive item. Defenses are the cheapest. All items max out, probably based on TL.

The "Point Buy" thought occurred to me when I was thinking about the different ship types we have in the OTU. The Plankwell and Kokirrak are both 200k ships, with about the same defenses (well not quite, but they should). Their difference is how they trade off drives for armor and weapons. Giving those elements a generic value gives us a point-buy system... in fact, it gets us a meta-design system. As it develops, I suspect what I think of as "points" will actually be BCr.

 

[robject]

Test Rules 'Beta'

Test Rules 'Beta'

Ship Data

• Attack Value (ATT)
• Defense Value (DEF)
• Jump
• Maneuver
• Crew Experience

Movement

Vector movement on a hexmat is done by plotting the "next turn's position" and then using the ship's Maneuver rating to adjust that position.

Attacks and Damage

Attacks are generalized, and defenses are assumed to be complete.

Attack task: nD < ATT [+ target's damage level]

Attack difficulty is range, minus the attacker's ATT, plus the defender's DEF, with a minimum of 1D. Example: a unit attacks an adjacent hex at 1D difficulty, regardless of how much more powerful it is than its target.

The main gun points in the direction of the nose.

The secondary guns' ATT value is 2. Secondary batteries are omnidirectional.

A successful attack adds 1 to the target's damage level. Each damage level represents -1 to movement and jump, as well as a reduction in defenses.

Flagship

At the beginning of the game, the fastest ship (or one of them) on each side is designated as the Flagship. This ship has the Fleet Admiral. All ships adjacent to the Admiral's ship may use the flagship's ATT and DEF, disregarding all damage for that turn.

Screening

Any ship adjacent to a targeted ship may elect to "screen" that ship, taking damage in its place.

Flanking

Two ships adjacent to the same target inflict one additional damage point.

Crew Experience

Veteran units which are damaged may roll a repair task instead of moving; on 1D == 1, one point of damage is removed.

Outsystem Rules

Half of the map may be designated "outsystem". In the outsystem, hexes count double for range and movement.

Placing each Intruder unit: the destination hex is chosen. Roll Flux: a zero or less places the unit in or near the destination hex. A +1 to +5 results in the ship arriving 1 to 5 hexes away (roll 1D for rosette direction).

If the 'Intruder' arrives in the outsystem, place 1/6 of the units before the first turn, 2/3 of the units in the first turn, and all remaining ships in the second turn.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Elegant.

Test Rules 'Beta'

Ship Data

• Attack Value (ATT)
• Defense Value (DEF)
• Jump
• Maneuver
• Crew Experience

Movement

Vector movement on a hexmat is done by plotting the "next turn's position" and then using the ship's Maneuver rating to adjust that position.

Attacks and Damage

Attacks are generalized, and defenses are assumed to be complete.

Attack task: nD < ATT [+ target's damage level]

Attack difficulty is range, minus the attacker's ATT, plus the defender's DEF, with a minimum of 1D. Example: a unit attacks an adjacent hex at 1D difficulty, regardless of how much more powerful it is than its target.

The main gun points in the direction of the nose.

The secondary guns' ATT value is 2. Secondary batteries are omnidirectional.

A successful attack adds 1 to the target's damage level. Each damage level represents -1 to movement and jump, as well as a reduction in defenses.

Flagship

At the beginning of the game, the fastest ship (or one of them) on each side is designated as the Flagship. This ship has the Fleet Admiral. All ships adjacent to the Admiral's ship may use the flagship's ATT and DEF, disregarding all damage for that turn.

Screening

Any ship adjacent to a targeted ship may elect to "screen" that ship, taking damage in its place.

Flanking

Two ships adjacent to the same target inflict one additional damage point.

Crew Experience

Veteran units which are damaged may roll a repair task instead of moving; on 1D == 1, one point of damage is removed.

Outsystem Rules

Half of the map may be designated "outsystem". In the outsystem, hexes count double for range and movement.

Placing each Intruder unit: the destination hex is chosen. Roll Flux: a zero or less places the unit in or near the destination hex. A +1 to +5 results in the ship arriving 1 to 5 hexes away (roll 1D for rosette direction).

If the 'Intruder' arrives in the outsystem, place 1/6 of the units before the first turn, 2/3 of the units in the first turn, and all remaining ships in the second turn.

Well, it sure looks good. Now we have to find out if it can fight. :devil:

Might have to see about genning up some ships and trying this out. Ah, yes playing with toys on the floor, funny how it was cool when I was a kid and as an adult it sort of irks me not to have a table truly big enough to play this without trouble. I hate having to move everything to use the card table. Still, it is something I will have to try out.

Oh, I am not sure I agree with the fastest ship being the Flagship, to me that is the most powerful.

 

[robject]

I tried it out -- with fewer ships than before -- and found I didn't like it for various reasons.

But I didn't try it enough times to try out all of the rules together.

The biggest "gripe" was that combat is very close ranged. It felt claustrophobic: ships coasting in on organized vectors, suddenly all opening fire within three or four hexes of each other. Maybe it's not as bad as I thought the first time, but still.

The next big gripe is I didn't handle initiative well (or perhaps TOO well): the last ships to set their movement have the vast advantages of (a) not being in the line of fire of main guns and (b) being able to point and position themselves to line up their attack. With that initiative, TL doesn't matter.

I'll do it again, but the urge is great to FIX those two problems first.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Bah, TL.

I tried it out -- with fewer ships than before -- and found I didn't like it for various reasons.

But I didn't try it enough times to try out all of the rules together.

The biggest "gripe" was that combat is very close ranged. It felt claustrophobic: ships coasting in on organized vectors, suddenly all opening fire within three or four hexes of each other. Maybe it's not as bad as I thought the first time, but still.

The next big gripe is I didn't handle initiative well (or perhaps TOO well): the last ships to set their movement have the vast advantages of (a) not being in the line of fire of main guns and (b) being able to point and position themselves to line up their attack. With that initiative, TL doesn't matter.

I'll do it again, but the urge is great to FIX those two problems first.

Both of those things you are poo-pooing seem like features to me. Go to Atomic Rockets and Rocketpunk Manifesto and be glad we get to play space battles at all.

Seriously, when I ran a few ACS Space Battles I found a similar issue, hours of closure with lots of missiles, followed by beams if it even it makes it that far, missiles seem to rule ACS.

As to initiative, I like how you say it works out. And it should, having the ability to look at the field and chose where and who to engage are pretty nice advantages. I also think you put to damn much reliance on TL as the absolute ruler of battle. It is great for machine war, but it leaves no room for a Nelson.

 

[Ulsyus]

Okay, I found it takes longer to play with simultaneous movement as there's more manoeuvring than you-move-I-move-we-shoot, but the suspense is better and requires more effort.

I found that I still wanted something extra: to be able to fire when the vessels were at their closes point of approach during a turn. Even if you take into account that they're continually adjusting their thrust intensity and direction, they'd still be able to fire at a range closer than when they've all finished moving. Split the difference between point of closest approach and final range?

As for the range issue you wrote about Rob, that's just a function of how you want to represent the weapon ranges. If you wanted more, you could simply make it hexes or units/2.