Problems with system data

[Gray Pennell]

I have to admit the problems with system data and subsector date have me scratching my head a lot. Lately, though, I have treated it like I do odd UPP rolls. For example why does the Sector capital only have an E class or a million people living successfully on a tech 3 vacuum world. These issues should not be seen as problems but inspiration to creating a unique vision.

One of the easiest way to explain an issue is the Scouts screwed up the Grand Survey. This makes an excellent Scout campaign. We have statistical errors and we need you and your crew to go verify and correct errors.

I have also had the E class star port issue. My answer has been the downport in question is being renovated or the highport just came online so it hasnt been rated by TAS. Or maybe there was damage to the port.

You can have aliens on those strange low tech, poor human environment worlds. Or remember the tech level represents the sustainable tech level. So that world has a big bullseye on it for traders.

They key is to see these challenges not as road block but as creative inspirations.

 

[BytePro]

If all generated stats - from PC UPPs to world profiles - are seen as 'temporary snapshots' qualifying things, then there is no real reason to get hung up on 'absurd' random results.

'Rationalizing' odd stuff is a lot easier that way - well, more easily made 'believable'. Heck, its the nature of the real Universe.

 

[Enoki]

Another idea on why a E starport, low tech, and small pop on a vacuum world is the case for a major goverment center would be the Brazilia model. The government decided that that particular system needed colonization so they moved the government to that particular barren rock...... Give it a few years....

 

[BlackBat242]

Washington, District of Columbia was built on a drained swamp, and was only in the list of 10 largest cities in the USA once before 1950... and that was in 1820, when New York City had 123,706 people, and D. C. was #9 with 13,247 (#7 & #8 were suburbs of Philadelphia, which was #2).

Even as late as WW2 military personnel stationed in D.C. received hardship pay because of the climate.

 

[mike wightman]

Separate Imperial organisational politics from the world itself.

The reason for a sector capital to have an E star port etc is that the sector duke happens to have that system as a fief - but the world itself runs its own affairs.

The sector duke has the resources to upgrade but doesn't - why?

The imperium doesn't own worlds remember, or impose government or internal economics.

 

[rancke]

The thing is, situations, conditions (I'm not quite sure what the word I want is) do not exist in isolation. There are ramifications, and sometimes those ramifications rule out some explanations.

Case in point, a subsector capital implies government which implies a bureaucracy. A bureaucracy implies orders going out and reports coming in. That implies courier ships coming and going. A government also implies envoys, bureaucrats, politicians, lobbyists coming and going, which implies passenger ships. Ships implies a market for fuel, maintenance, repairs. A market implies people willing to provide goods and services. So a subsector capital implies a class C starport at the very minimum. A subsector capital with an E starport isn't the analogue of an early American Washington, it's the analogue of an early Washington with no stables, feed merchants, and blacksmiths to service the horses.

The 'UWPs are a snapshot' explanations may work (unless UWPs have been reprinted for different years, as in the case of the Spinward Marches), but the way they work means replacing the strange UWPs anyway. "Sure, it was a class E starport the day the government was transferred here, but that was a month ago; now it's class C and they're building a shipyard that'll be finished next year."


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

The E star port is what is available to civilian traffic.

The duke may well have his own private facilities for his use only.

If a duke on a TL10 world can finance a TL15 regiment or two, a duke maintaining his own private type C port for his own use is perfectly acceptable.

Why doe he want to keep his facilities separate from the civilian infrastructure?

 

[BytePro]

For CT, capital systems are assigned by Referee.

A capital that is chosen with an E/X starport just implies that it doesn't follow a typical model, or Ref changes the code.

In CT, at least, special bases are an explicit option. So such a system could have a Diplomatic Base that does not support interstellar trade and such, but does support the needs of the interstellar government.

 

[Dragoner]

Or much of the time like in real life, a military base that is off-limits to civilian traffic.

 

[rancke]

The E star port is what is available to civilian traffic.

On a subsector capital? Does not make sense.

The duke may well have his own private facilities for his use only.

If a duke on a TL10 world can finance a TL15 regiment or two, a duke maintaining his own private type C port for his own use is perfectly acceptable.

Irrelevant. The duke would have to actively prevent anyone from establsihing any ship services, and where's the sense in that?


Hans

 

[77topaz]

Here's a possible situation/reason:
The capital may have, say several dozen class E starports. Any particular facility or feature that could be found on a class C starport could be found somewhere, but since none have the starports have more than about one feature (one's small but has shopping and legal facilities, one's gigantic but has absolutely no control facilities, one has lots of storage facilities but that's basically all it is, etc.), all of them are type E, so the UWP would show E. And the duke may have construction facilities, but they are private and/or cost a lot to use, and not part of any starport, so they don't count for the starport code. This would most likely be a balkanized subsector capital.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

If I may ask, where is this Class E starport sector capitol world? Are we talking about an actual imperial capitol, a big enchilada world in a balkanized sector or just a hypothetical?

Also, a capitol world with a funny starport isn't exactly the best example of wacky random system generation by my reckoning, since I don't recall any in-game d6 metric for assigning one. Isn't that just a matter of Referee/Game Designer fiat?

 

[77topaz]

If I may ask, where is this Class E starport sector capitol world? Are we talking about an actual imperial capitol, a big enchilada world in a balkanized sector or just a hypothetical?

Also, a capitol world with a funny starport isn't exactly the best example of wacky random system generation by my reckoning, since I don't recall any in-game d6 metric for assigning one. Isn't that just a matter of Referee/Game Designer fiat?

It's a hypothetical, but I might find an example somewhere if I crawled through Travellermap information.
On starport assigning, there exists a system for that, but I'm not sure what it is; it's probably in the World Builder's Handbook.

 

[rancke]

Here's a possible situation/reason:
The capital may have, say several dozen class E starports. Any particular facility or feature that could be found on a class C starport could be found somewhere, but since none have the starports have more than about one feature (one's small but has shopping and legal facilities, one's gigantic but has absolutely no control facilities, one has lots of storage facilities but that's basically all it is, etc.), all of them are type E, so the UWP would show E. And the duke may have construction facilities, but they are private and/or cost a lot to use, and not part of any starport, so they don't count for the starport code. This would most likely be a balkanized subsector capital.

"Welcome to Washington, good sir."

"Greeting to you, hostler. Can I stable my horse here at your fine establishment?"

"That you can sir, but I have no stableboys to rub your horse down. For that you will have to visit another stable. And if you want them fed, you must go to yet another stable. Two if you want both hay and oats."


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Here's a possible situation/reason:
The capital may have, say several dozen class E starports...

Well, no, not by the way I recall any of the rules. There is only ONE Starport*. THE Starport is the official interstellar connection for interstellar commerce.

There may well be subordinate facilities, commonly called Spaceports, and as far as I can recall all are of lesser capability than THE Starport (or one of them would be THE Starport).

THE Starport is also the defining installation of THE Mainworld and is not dependent on the local government type in the slightest as it is extraterritorial.

A facility dependent on the local government type is separate from THE Starport and may in fact be superior but it is not openly available to anyone but the local government forces. It may even (theoretically) be effectively a Class A facility while THE Starport is only a Class E.

The quality of THE Starport is a reflection of the Interstellar Polity's importance attached to the system. Class A Starports signify a high level of influence and importance. Class E Starports signify a low level of influence and importance. I personally can't see a Sector Capital having less than a Class A Starport, and a Sub-Sector Capital having less than a Class B Starport.

* not counting High and Low as separate Starports, merely distinct services of the ONE Starport

 

[77topaz]

A facility dependent on the local government type is separate from THE Starport and may in fact be superior but it is not openly available to anyone but the local government forces. It may even (theoretically) be effectively a Class A facility while THE Starport is only a Class E.

Well, that could be an explanation to why some subsector capitals have class E starports. From http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Starport:

It is rare, but not unheard of, that spaceport facilities are better than the Imperial starport facilites.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I personally can't see a Sector Capital having less than a Class A Starport, and a Sub-Sector Capital having less than a Class B Starport.

What makes a capitol? Why would the system need to be a bustling location with a huge port to be the capital for the Imperium?

Maybe it's location, location, location?
- Central location within the area governed?
- Maybe in some instances the Imperium specifically wanted a location away from the possible influences of local politics?
- Perhaps the location was selected during a time of conflict when being remote or of little tactical importance was a consideration?

Example: Montpelier Vermont is not the most populous city in Vermont nor is it anywhere near a port. Why was it chosen? Montpelier was located near the center of the state, it had only a few settlers, and it was neutral politically. You'd think a capital city would warrant an airport but I believe the closest commercial airport is in another county.

 

[Enoki]

The other thing to remember here is that the map, like the Travellermap site is a snapshot not a dynamic thing. It shows the Traveller universe at a particular time. Earlier or later than the date of the map things could have or are radically different than what is shown.

It is like digging in the glove box of the car and pulling out your 1974 copy of a Michelin map to determine what's where......

 

[BytePro]

At least in CT - capitals are assigned by Referees or in a setting... so if there are those that have low quality starports, then that is as intended.

In CT, starports are explicitly defined as supporting Trade and Surveys.

Capitals are not inherently about such - they are about Administration. What makes a system a Capital is not random die roles - and can be due, in-game, to any number of influences (history, wealth, population, TL, what have you). So starports are definitely optional in this case.

Which does not mean that starships don't visit the system nor even that they don't land nor that facilities don't exist for diplomatic envoys and such - just that they are not publicly supported for purposes of Trade or Surveys. Below D class, Navy and Scout bases don't exist (from random gen and for interstellar fleets, local spaceports and related bases are still a given option) - but that does not mean that the Capital system does not still control regional fleets - just that they are not based there.

 

[mike wightman]

A quick check through SM and SR - every sub sector capital has a type A star port.