Price-Fixed Travel
- Thread starter Rodina
- Start date
notagoodusername
SOC-13
The official prices are as listed, and for the most part on liners and regular routes they are. Out in the frontier regions, or on small irregular traders the price may be a normal ticket, normal ticket plus a cash supplement, or even a lower price if the captain is desperate.
Shane
Shane
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
You could also charge extra for passage to amber (and red
) zoned planets.
IMU prices are slightly fixed.
Ticket prices depedends on many things;
Primary are market forces.
Are the players ship owners?
Is the destination an amber or red zone?
Is there a regularly scheduled liner making that run?
Is an emergency involved?
Is a mass migration involved?
Is the passenger an Imperial citizen or military, then the price is fixed.
Most passeges prices are fixed unless something is going on.
Transport to an amber zone will unlock price limits.
Transport to a red zone is fixed for Imperial citizen or military on oficial orders only, otherwise since the passengers want to go somewhere illegal, the sky isn't even the limit.
If the passengers are part of an official evacuation or emergency, then price gouging will result in confiscation of the ship. Unofficial evacs mean all bets are off.
Competing against a scheduled liner is an uphill battle. Passengers are available who need to go NOW!!! or are avoiding official channels or "Imperial entanglements".
A mass migration to somewhere that land is "Free" or a mining gold strike will create a surge in people going and limited transport. Charge what you like.
The rule of thumb I use is "Is there an Imperial official who will have an excuse to confiscate the ship if the prices are raised?"
Ticket prices depedends on many things;
Primary are market forces.
Are the players ship owners?
Is the destination an amber or red zone?
Is there a regularly scheduled liner making that run?
Is an emergency involved?
Is a mass migration involved?
Is the passenger an Imperial citizen or military, then the price is fixed.
Most passeges prices are fixed unless something is going on.
Transport to an amber zone will unlock price limits.
Transport to a red zone is fixed for Imperial citizen or military on oficial orders only, otherwise since the passengers want to go somewhere illegal, the sky isn't even the limit.
If the passengers are part of an official evacuation or emergency, then price gouging will result in confiscation of the ship. Unofficial evacs mean all bets are off.
Competing against a scheduled liner is an uphill battle. Passengers are available who need to go NOW!!! or are avoiding official channels or "Imperial entanglements".
A mass migration to somewhere that land is "Free" or a mining gold strike will create a surge in people going and limited transport. Charge what you like.
The rule of thumb I use is "Is there an Imperial official who will have an excuse to confiscate the ship if the prices are raised?"
I've been forced by common sense to completely rescale all passage costs - there is no way anybody will ever build anything cpable of more than Jump-1 in the OTU unless it's for the military/gov't!
3 parsecs travel in a very expensive Jump-3 liner costs 8 or 10 KCr (Middle/High). The same in a much-less expensive Jump-1 liner (with lots of fuel tankage for those routes across 'empty hexes') cost 24 or 30 KCr!
I've cut prices in half, then added a 10% surcharge for every Jump saved. The prices for that same trip IMTU:
Jump 1 = 12 or 15 KCr, 6 weeks travel time.
Jump 2 = 13.2 or 16.5 KCr, 4 weeks
Jump 3 = 14.2 or 18 KCr, 2 weeks.
For longer journeys, the charges for high Jump numbers start to skyrocket!
Another way to look at it - in the OTU, a ticket on Concorde would cost about a third of what a regular airline would charge!
OTU prices are NOT designed to reflect any logic aside from the need to make low-Jump Free and Far Traders marginal enterprises and encourage PCs to do 'interesting things' in order to make the mortgage.
I've also done similar things for the cost of life support (oxygen should be free, you get it from refining fuel from water, and Archdukes spend less on food than starship pursers!).
3 parsecs travel in a very expensive Jump-3 liner costs 8 or 10 KCr (Middle/High). The same in a much-less expensive Jump-1 liner (with lots of fuel tankage for those routes across 'empty hexes') cost 24 or 30 KCr!
I've cut prices in half, then added a 10% surcharge for every Jump saved. The prices for that same trip IMTU:
Jump 1 = 12 or 15 KCr, 6 weeks travel time.
Jump 2 = 13.2 or 16.5 KCr, 4 weeks
Jump 3 = 14.2 or 18 KCr, 2 weeks.
For longer journeys, the charges for high Jump numbers start to skyrocket!
Another way to look at it - in the OTU, a ticket on Concorde would cost about a third of what a regular airline would charge!
OTU prices are NOT designed to reflect any logic aside from the need to make low-Jump Free and Far Traders marginal enterprises and encourage PCs to do 'interesting things' in order to make the mortgage.
I've also done similar things for the cost of life support (oxygen should be free, you get it from refining fuel from water, and Archdukes spend less on food than starship pursers!).
IMTU, the OTU "Fixed Prices" are what both TAS and the Imperial Government will pay. And, since the government will sell you passage coupons....
There is a law, IMTU's 3I, that any ship which accepts passage coupons from the IN, IMC, IISS, IMOT, or IMOJ may not charge more than those rates for any embarked passenger; fraud gets the ships license to cash in those same tickets revoked; revocation time is one year per offence recorded for each offense. (IE: Offense 1, 1 year suspension. Offense 2, 2 years more; offence 3, 3 years.) If the offenses are by the same captain, the captain is also suspended 1 year for each prior offense, and imprisoned for a similar number of months. Since most of the time, this will in fact result in not being readily available, the skippper will wind up getting nabbed several months later and bound over for trial...
And, that law is also going to award ALL passengers reimbursement of the excess charge against the highest overcharge.
Also, the passages are not paid out to the ship in cash simple; the IMOT funded starport ticket authority (At most D's, and all A B & C ports in the 3I) pays the life support recharges, food packets, etc, buying in bulk, and portioning them out. So, for passengers, on a MPC you get CR 6000 cash. Often, it will actually be less than that, as they'll let you sign against ones you've collected during the week for fuel and berthing, too...
A common customs question is "How much did you pay for passage?"
Now, IMTU, the IMoT enforces this in c9oncert with the IMoJ; neither cares if you charge more, but don't accept coupons... that's explicitly allowed... but it reduces available passengers by (1d6-1)x20%. And a DM is applied on the number of passengers by looking at the difference n the AVT and comparing.
There is a law, IMTU's 3I, that any ship which accepts passage coupons from the IN, IMC, IISS, IMOT, or IMOJ may not charge more than those rates for any embarked passenger; fraud gets the ships license to cash in those same tickets revoked; revocation time is one year per offence recorded for each offense. (IE: Offense 1, 1 year suspension. Offense 2, 2 years more; offence 3, 3 years.) If the offenses are by the same captain, the captain is also suspended 1 year for each prior offense, and imprisoned for a similar number of months. Since most of the time, this will in fact result in not being readily available, the skippper will wind up getting nabbed several months later and bound over for trial...
And, that law is also going to award ALL passengers reimbursement of the excess charge against the highest overcharge.
Also, the passages are not paid out to the ship in cash simple; the IMOT funded starport ticket authority (At most D's, and all A B & C ports in the 3I) pays the life support recharges, food packets, etc, buying in bulk, and portioning them out. So, for passengers, on a MPC you get CR 6000 cash. Often, it will actually be less than that, as they'll let you sign against ones you've collected during the week for fuel and berthing, too...
A common customs question is "How much did you pay for passage?"
Now, IMTU, the IMoT enforces this in c9oncert with the IMoJ; neither cares if you charge more, but don't accept coupons... that's explicitly allowed... but it reduces available passengers by (1d6-1)x20%. And a DM is applied on the number of passengers by looking at the difference n the AVT and comparing.
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Well, I think these guys just made up figures that seemed right at the time. I think they used CR1000/ton for cargo and CR8000/mid-passage (CR2000/ton) as nice even numbers. I would use the passage figures as a standard for J-1 travel. Fast passenger services are premium, and some kind of "jump adjustment" for J-1 travel over multiple parsecs would be standard practice. Trading in a free Passage ticket would only get you the base value, less fees of various sorts.
It appears that the initial 3 LBBs were created in terms of tons mass, and only later did the authors acknowledge how small 100 tons mass would be. They probably tossed several ideas around until settling with the 14m³ volume of 1 ton mass H2.
I wonder when they realized that ships would actually use D2 for fuel...
I like to think in terms of British units, and 14m³ comes to just under 8'×8'×8'. If we use the convenient figure 62.5 ft² of deck space, 4 tons would come to a nice even 250 ft². Let's compare that to the first "cruise ship stateroom size" that Googles up, the 50,000 ton Crystal Harmony.
Regular staterooms (class C,D,E) are 198 ft², with F being slightly larger and G being slightly smaller. Class A and B staterooms are 246 ft² including "verandah" (narrow balcony). Penthouses are 360-948 ft². Note that all these are double occupancy with seating area and ¾ bath, not single occupancy with military head (½ bath).
This is from two of the most modern liners afloat, 138kT sister ships Explorer of the Seas and Voyager otS. Standard double occupancy rooms are 160 ft², 167 ft², 173 ft² + balcony, 261 ft², and 381 ft² + balcony.
Likewise the bridge requirement of 20 tons (~1250 ft²) is an excessive deck hog and profit killer for the 100 and 200 ton hulls, and unnecessarily large for the biggest "standard" ships. I wonder if the multi-kT cruise ships' bridges are that big, including allowance for tour groups of observers.
Perhaps that 20 tons in the expanded scale was not adjusted, intended to include sensors, control and power panels, equipment lockers, etc. Perhaps the 4 tons/single was not adjusted, instead assumed to include allowance for galley, pantry, gangways, and other common areas. Those allowances would be generous to the point of wasteful.
I haven't played much with starship design, but IMTU I would halve the stateroom requirement and set something like 1 + sqrt(hull/100+staterooms) as a guideline for bridge and minimal common areas. Passenger service should expect more common area space than military, and allowance for special sensors or comm equipment is extra as well. Other requirements could arise for larger ships and weapons.
Better still, a complete list of standard or typical features (sm/med/lg mil autogalley, passenger galley space, exercise room, observation deck, equip lockers) for simple or detailed deck plans.
It appears that the initial 3 LBBs were created in terms of tons mass, and only later did the authors acknowledge how small 100 tons mass would be. They probably tossed several ideas around until settling with the 14m³ volume of 1 ton mass H2.
I wonder when they realized that ships would actually use D2 for fuel...I like to think in terms of British units, and 14m³ comes to just under 8'×8'×8'. If we use the convenient figure 62.5 ft² of deck space, 4 tons would come to a nice even 250 ft². Let's compare that to the first "cruise ship stateroom size" that Googles up, the 50,000 ton Crystal Harmony.
Regular staterooms (class C,D,E) are 198 ft², with F being slightly larger and G being slightly smaller. Class A and B staterooms are 246 ft² including "verandah" (narrow balcony). Penthouses are 360-948 ft². Note that all these are double occupancy with seating area and ¾ bath, not single occupancy with military head (½ bath).
This is from two of the most modern liners afloat, 138kT sister ships Explorer of the Seas and Voyager otS. Standard double occupancy rooms are 160 ft², 167 ft², 173 ft² + balcony, 261 ft², and 381 ft² + balcony.
Likewise the bridge requirement of 20 tons
(~1250 ft²) is an excessive deck hog and profit killer for the 100 and 200 ton hulls, and unnecessarily large for the biggest "standard" ships. I wonder if the multi-kT cruise ships' bridges are that big, including allowance for tour groups of observers.Perhaps that 20 tons in the expanded scale was not adjusted, intended to include sensors, control and power panels, equipment lockers, etc. Perhaps the 4 tons/single was not adjusted, instead assumed to include allowance for galley, pantry, gangways, and other common areas. Those allowances would be generous to the point of wasteful.
I haven't played much with starship design, but IMTU I would halve the stateroom requirement and set something like 1 + sqrt(hull/100+staterooms) as a guideline for bridge and minimal common areas. Passenger service should expect more common area space than military, and allowance for special sensors or comm equipment is extra as well. Other requirements could arise for larger ships and weapons.
Better still, a complete list of standard or typical features (sm/med/lg mil autogalley, passenger galley space, exercise room, observation deck, equip lockers) for simple or detailed deck plans.
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Commander Drax
SOC-12
IMTU I take the view that the smaller independant merchants can charge what they like, and in the interest of competition often do. They would be foolish to charge less than the cost of the life support though, as after all the whole point is to make a profit.
Within the Imperium I also have large liners 5000 tons or bigger charging Cr3,000 for a mid passage as after all they would discounts on life support or the advantage of their own port facilities making life much more cost effective.
Also simply by carrying literally hundreds of passangers from high pop worlds these ships remain quite profitable.
Like anything else in life, competion forces prices down, the higher the population of the world the more competing merchant lines there would be each trying to price the competition out of the market giving the public cheaper and more regular services. The typical free trader isn't generally built to be profitable in places like this, and profit minded captains would then take their ships to interstellar backwaters that contain moderate population worlds where there's less competition which of course forces prices up for freight, and passage. Again these captains would also avoid the out and out low pop worlds, as these planets might not generate enough passengers to fill the staterooms on his ship, and as we all know in response to low demand most sellers lower their prices.
Many merchants IMTU get round this by joining a trade federation or guild (read cartel), where for a small token fee and safety check (part of annual maintenance) the ship gets 'certified' and must charge standard prices, so as not to outbid other merchants in the fellowship etc.
In return for the fee paid, the ship can use the guild/federation crest in its advertising at ports etc, which the general public would recognise as the guarantee of a minimum standard of service provided like modern day tour operators 'ABTA affiliated or certified etc' remember the inspection.
Also most small merchants tend to cater to the more luxurious side of interstellar travel to off set the relatively cramped conditions aboard. A modern day comparison would be wealthy tourists paying to cruise to Barbados on a small yacht, as oppossed to a large liner, as this is seen to be more elitist and the standards of care recieved are more personal than aboard the liner.
Hope this helps.
Within the Imperium I also have large liners 5000 tons or bigger charging Cr3,000 for a mid passage as after all they would discounts on life support or the advantage of their own port facilities making life much more cost effective.
Also simply by carrying literally hundreds of passangers from high pop worlds these ships remain quite profitable.
Like anything else in life, competion forces prices down, the higher the population of the world the more competing merchant lines there would be each trying to price the competition out of the market giving the public cheaper and more regular services. The typical free trader isn't generally built to be profitable in places like this, and profit minded captains would then take their ships to interstellar backwaters that contain moderate population worlds where there's less competition which of course forces prices up for freight, and passage. Again these captains would also avoid the out and out low pop worlds, as these planets might not generate enough passengers to fill the staterooms on his ship, and as we all know in response to low demand most sellers lower their prices.
Many merchants IMTU get round this by joining a trade federation or guild (read cartel), where for a small token fee and safety check (part of annual maintenance) the ship gets 'certified' and must charge standard prices, so as not to outbid other merchants in the fellowship etc.
In return for the fee paid, the ship can use the guild/federation crest in its advertising at ports etc, which the general public would recognise as the guarantee of a minimum standard of service provided like modern day tour operators 'ABTA affiliated or certified etc' remember the inspection.
Also most small merchants tend to cater to the more luxurious side of interstellar travel to off set the relatively cramped conditions aboard. A modern day comparison would be wealthy tourists paying to cruise to Barbados on a small yacht, as oppossed to a large liner, as this is seen to be more elitist and the standards of care recieved are more personal than aboard the liner.
Hope this helps.
Your ideas are good corcerning large passenger ships. Another point to remember in real life ,during the period of the Luxury Liners in the Atlantic trade, the steerage passengers were what made the ships profitable. The large number of immigrants to the US made these ships profitable. The 2nd and 1st class passengers were an add on to increase their profit margins.
When this dried up in the 50's, aircraft with their faster travel times only completed the job. Promoting the journey as part of your vaction has led the to the cruise ships coming into service.
Cruise ships might not exist because space travel is not that pleasant even under luxury conditions.
The equivalent of aircraft travel, Jump-6 is not a cost effective option. Jump-1 0r Jump-6 will still take a week so it does not affect time only distance.
So carrying large amounts of cold sleep capsules with different baggage allotments maybe the basis for a profitable ship.
When this dried up in the 50's, aircraft with their faster travel times only completed the job. Promoting the journey as part of your vaction has led the to the cruise ships coming into service.
Cruise ships might not exist because space travel is not that pleasant even under luxury conditions.
The equivalent of aircraft travel, Jump-6 is not a cost effective option. Jump-1 0r Jump-6 will still take a week so it does not affect time only distance.
So carrying large amounts of cold sleep capsules with different baggage allotments maybe the basis for a profitable ship.
I'd like to abandon the fixed price (I am using price per parsec, rather than per trip), but I don't have a good enough economic model or the time to build one honestly to find out what the real prices should reach, in different areas, and to model the kinds of supply/demand fluctuations and price effects that this would really require. I'd love to do it though, as standard prices just defy merchantile sense.
As to the stateroom thing, I beg to differ with the prior poster. 1.5m squares.... 8 in a 4 ton allotment. Two for the bed. One for a chair. One for the area in front of the stateroom door, plus any alloted closet space. That leaves, 3 squares to cover any life support, galley, hallways (yes, these tend to eat space), things like swimming pools, common rooms, gymnasia, etc. Not much at all, if you start drawing deck plans.
Your modern luxury ship has not call to provide oxygen recycling, it has no call to provide a sealed environment or the level of damage repair facilities a starship needs. Nor does it have the need to provide spacesuits and rescue balls and other such things in the same manner that a spaceship will. And even then, the 160 sq ft space doesn't account for galleys, dining rooms, hallways, pool halls, swimming pools, shuffleboard tables, dance ballrooms, etc. that exist on these things. Add them in and I suspect you'd come closer to 300 sq ft or more per.
If you use half sized staterooms for single occupancy on your ship (most of my ships do for space reasons), you've got even less luxury space. But it is cheaper then (or should be) to get from A to B by a ship if all you want is 'we get you there' service.
As to the stateroom thing, I beg to differ with the prior poster. 1.5m squares.... 8 in a 4 ton allotment. Two for the bed. One for a chair. One for the area in front of the stateroom door, plus any alloted closet space. That leaves, 3 squares to cover any life support, galley, hallways (yes, these tend to eat space), things like swimming pools, common rooms, gymnasia, etc. Not much at all, if you start drawing deck plans.
Your modern luxury ship has not call to provide oxygen recycling, it has no call to provide a sealed environment or the level of damage repair facilities a starship needs. Nor does it have the need to provide spacesuits and rescue balls and other such things in the same manner that a spaceship will. And even then, the 160 sq ft space doesn't account for galleys, dining rooms, hallways, pool halls, swimming pools, shuffleboard tables, dance ballrooms, etc. that exist on these things. Add them in and I suspect you'd come closer to 300 sq ft or more per.
If you use half sized staterooms for single occupancy on your ship (most of my ships do for space reasons), you've got even less luxury space. But it is cheaper then (or should be) to get from A to B by a ship if all you want is 'we get you there' service.
And charging linearly per parsec gives results just as daft as charging per trip, but in the other direction... Something more sophisticated is needed.
I ran a game last year with two post-doctoral economics researchers, who had a thing or two to say about traveller economics. When it came to modelling the economics bottom up, they reckoned that you just can't do it because there isn't enough information about OTU. The supply of ships affects the shipping rates, the demand affects the shipping rates, and the shipping rates affect the demand and the supply of ships...
It seems to me that the best bet is a more abstract approach like "efficient market theory". This which would make all jump distances equally profitable, since if rates made (say) J2 more profitable then there'd be a rush to build J2 ships which would drive the profits down to parity through competition. So, as a first approximation, you could design a bunch of ships with varying jump distances and set the rates to make each distance equally profitable.
That begs the question of which size you use for the comparisons -- you'll get different results for J1-3 tramp traders and 4000 dton J1-3 Tukera heavies. I figure prices should vary. The economics of Tukera freighters set the prices on high volume trade routes with small trader economics setting the prices between Armpit and Overshoe. I'd not be surprised if small traders get squeezed out of the larger routes, and large ships can't fill their holds to break even on the small routes (even though rates are higher).
There will be various distortions. E.g. if it's the aftermath of a war, with lots of surplus J2 1000 tonners coming on the market, that will drive J2 prices down on medium to large routes. A glut of incurable romantics buying free traders on ridiculous hire-purchase terms would rip the bottom out of the boonies market. A commerce raider will drive prices up.
As you have doubtless noticed, it's very easy to start going around in circles. And you never know enough about the setting to give a truly definitive answer.
In practice, charging 35% extra for each parsec after the first does seem to give fairly reasonable figures, for the sort of ships PCs have. Given the lack of information, a more complex approach is likely to just be wrong in extra detail. I'd go with it.
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
"1.5m squares... 8 in a 4 ton allotment" is 18m², closer to 3 dTons rather than 4 (given a 2.4m ceiling height).
Mostly, I looked at cruise ships just for a restricted-space comparison of double occupancy (as opposed to single occupancy) that could be considered luxurious (as opposed to steerage). I said that using 4dT to account for "galley, pantry, gangways, and other common areas... would be generous to the point of wasteful."
As for life support & sealed environment, that is part and parcel of ship design as a whole. That's why starship hulls cost 20-100k/dT empty: rad shielding, buffered auto-sealing materials for micrometeors, wiring, piping, etc are included. Later design rules account for life support tonnage and costs separately yet still cite 4dT (and the mysterious 2000/jump overhead).
C'mon, I don't think 4dT was ever supposed to account for "pool halls, swimming pools, shuffleboard tables, dance ballrooms, etc." Do you really? If you want those on your ship, add rooms sized and designated for the purpose. Allowance for passageways is reasonable and nothing more required. Especially for standard sub-1000dT ships.
Another thing about travel economics: low passage. A cold sleep berth is, in essence, a piece of medical equipment. In today's economy, a hospital room is more expensive than a luxury hotel room. A pint of blood is more expensive than the finest wine or caviar on Earth. Imaging and lifesign monitoring is high-tech, high-price equipment.
Sure, in Traveller the tech is well developed and benefits from economy of scale. The initial cost is going to be high just because a life depends on the flawless operation of the equipment. Maintenance is going to be costly as well.
Even then, the odds of surviving is worse then a term of service in the military! Picture in your mind an activity that incurs a 16% chance of death, or if attended by a fully qualified doctor, an 8% chance of death. I'm not sure that open heart surgery is that risky today; I am sure that in Traveller tech it isn't.
No, the only time you want cold sleep is for extended travel, like sub-light interstellar or really primitive chemical rocketry interplanetary trips. Maybe if a low passage was over many jumps, essentially mailing yourself across a sector or two, that could justify the extreme risk.
Instead there should be an economy class ticket for double occupancy bunks in a half-sized room, with limited common area privileges (a short period each day to stretch and walk a bit). Decent auto-galley fare. Think sleeper compartment on a train. Price (J-1) would be about 2k, or 4k Private compartment single occupancy.
There might also be 19th century type steerage: an open space with benches and hammocks, with limited space for personal belongings including food under the bench. That would be the 1k J-1 ticket.
Mostly, I looked at cruise ships just for a restricted-space comparison of double occupancy (as opposed to single occupancy) that could be considered luxurious (as opposed to steerage). I said that using 4dT to account for "galley, pantry, gangways, and other common areas... would be generous to the point of wasteful."
As for life support & sealed environment, that is part and parcel of ship design as a whole. That's why starship hulls cost 20-100k/dT empty: rad shielding, buffered auto-sealing materials for micrometeors, wiring, piping, etc are included. Later design rules account for life support tonnage and costs separately yet still cite 4dT (and the mysterious 2000/jump overhead).
C'mon, I don't think 4dT was ever supposed to account for "pool halls, swimming pools, shuffleboard tables, dance ballrooms, etc." Do you really? If you want those on your ship, add rooms sized and designated for the purpose. Allowance for passageways is reasonable and nothing more required. Especially for standard sub-1000dT ships.
Another thing about travel economics: low passage. A cold sleep berth is, in essence, a piece of medical equipment. In today's economy, a hospital room is more expensive than a luxury hotel room. A pint of blood is more expensive than the finest wine or caviar on Earth. Imaging and lifesign monitoring is high-tech, high-price equipment.
Sure, in Traveller the tech is well developed and benefits from economy of scale. The initial cost is going to be high just because a life depends on the flawless operation of the equipment. Maintenance is going to be costly as well.
Even then, the odds of surviving is worse then a term of service in the military! Picture in your mind an activity that incurs a 16% chance of death, or if attended by a fully qualified doctor, an 8% chance of death. I'm not sure that open heart surgery is that risky today; I am sure that in Traveller tech it isn't.
No, the only time you want cold sleep is for extended travel, like sub-light interstellar or really primitive chemical rocketry interplanetary trips. Maybe if a low passage was over many jumps, essentially mailing yourself across a sector or two, that could justify the extreme risk.
Instead there should be an economy class ticket for double occupancy bunks in a half-sized room, with limited common area privileges (a short period each day to stretch and walk a bit). Decent auto-galley fare. Think sleeper compartment on a train. Price (J-1) would be about 2k, or 4k Private compartment single occupancy.
There might also be 19th century type steerage: an open space with benches and hammocks, with limited space for personal belongings including food under the bench. That would be the 1k J-1 ticket.
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Long ago (back in the T4 days) I designed a number of 600 T ships, each optimized for one type of passenger. I then calculated it's yearly expenses and divided that by 90% of it's capacity to get the price of a ticket. I ran out of steam before I finished them all (the only jump-4 to jump-6 ships finished were those for Economy Passage), but here are the results for the ones I did finish:
STANDARD TICKET PRICES
A referee who wishes to avoid all those tedious calculations should make one simple assumption: That any regular passenger liner the PCs need to board is the size it is because it can fill its staterooms 80-90% per trip on the average and that there are no special circumstances like monopolies, state subsidies, price wars, seasonal fluctuations etc. Then all the Referee has to do is to decide on the kind of ship that would reasonably service whatever route is involved and check this table:
REGULAR PASSENGER LINER TRAVELLING FROM SURFACE TO SURFACE (35 jumps per year):
................Steerage......Low........Economy.......Mid .........High
................Passage...Passage....Passage... Passage...Passage
Jump-1:.....1,200......1,400..........2,800........4,800 .......6,200
Jump-2:.....1,500......1,800..........3,800........6,600 .......8,400
Jump-3:.....2,100......2,200..........5,100........9,000 .....11,400
Jump-4:.....................................13,400
Jump-5:.....................................19,800
Jump-6:.....................................35,000
Note 1: The prices above was arrived at by designing a number of 600 T ships each dedicated to one kind of passengers, ie. a ship with 1 T of cargo space per passenger and 1 steward per 8 passengers for High Passengers, another ship with negligible cargo space and 1 steward per 50 passengers for Mid Passengers, a ship with small staterooms for Economy Passengers, a ship with Low Berths and 1 medic per 20 berths for Low Passengers, and a ship with bunks only for Steerage Passengers. In all cases, except the ships for Steerage passengers, the design included emergency medical low berths enough to accomodate a full complement of crew and passengers.
Hans
Straybow
SOC-14 1K
Well, by the examples I cited the double occupancy stateroom would be 3dT, not 2dT, and would include ¾ bath (no tub, only shower stall).
So why not knock off 25% of cargo space for the same reason? Only 3 tons of cargo fit in 4 tons of cargo space because you need room for stabilization webbing, inspection access, etc.
Again, the stateroom examples include both head and shower. A submarine is designed for up to 6 months without resupply. You might find crew space of 1dT each including freezer space for all that food... closet space for designer shoe collections not included.
A modern cruise ship is designed for onboard entertainment to compete with Disney World, whereas most Traveller ships (all the sub-1000dT standard ones) are designed to transport people and cargo for practical reasons. Hence the reason why I contrasted the 4dT single occ Trav stateroom to the luxury 3dT double occ Cruise ship stateroom.
If you want hallways wide enough to walk 3 abreast put them in your design. If you want 8' ceilings plus 2' for decking and grav, put it in your design. A standard Scout or Trader isn't going to have that much elbow room in passages or headroom in crew/passenger areas.
Nope, accounted for by an enormous 20dT Bridge... the size of a small house. Ship's locker, vacc suits/rescue balls, replacement electronics, blah blah blah fit in with room for a pony to spare. It's the size of a house, fer cryin' out loud! For the engineering compartment, all reasonable spares storage and tools for onboard repair included.
Well, this debate is getting too lengthy to hold anyone's attention, so let's cut to the chase scene. Am I against canon? Yes, where slavish devotion results in stupidity. Playing cold-berth Russian roulette just to save a couple weeks' worth of air, water and cheese crackers is stupid. Spending 2k to "support" an empty and oversized stateroom is stupid. If canon means things-we-don't-change-no-matter-how-stupid, it is stupidity compounded. I think you said, "I'd like to abandon the fixed price..." for much the same reason.
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Do I recall a 20dT requirement in all trav ship construction systems? Or is your agrument particular to any individual system? Plus the storage would have to be distributed, unless you 'distribute' your bridge.... (and where would you store your 1970s computer core otherwise?).
The 20dT of bridge include (to my mind) flight controls, computer systems, control panels, linkages to sensors, to gunnery, to engineering, internal monitors, etc. etc. etc. I don't think they include a supply of rescue balls etc for all the passengers - just for the bridge crew. Plus the ship's locker.
I agree with you on the 2K for empty staterooms. You'd think you could shut them down and seal them off. The low berth issue is problematic for reasons I cited before (ignoring tech level, etc), but there is a substantial difference in cost between the cost of a low passage and a mid passage, and *that* is probably why one would run the risk, can't afford mid passage. Now, if you play with a different economic model, it's possible that distinction changes.
I'm not really saying all your points are off-kilter, just that there are arguments (with which no one is compelled to agree) to justify most canon decisions/restrictions/values.
The 20dT of bridge include (to my mind) flight controls, computer systems, control panels, linkages to sensors, to gunnery, to engineering, internal monitors, etc. etc. etc. I don't think they include a supply of rescue balls etc for all the passengers - just for the bridge crew. Plus the ship's locker.
I agree with you on the 2K for empty staterooms. You'd think you could shut them down and seal them off. The low berth issue is problematic for reasons I cited before (ignoring tech level, etc), but there is a substantial difference in cost between the cost of a low passage and a mid passage, and *that* is probably why one would run the risk, can't afford mid passage. Now, if you play with a different economic model, it's possible that distinction changes.
I'm not really saying all your points are off-kilter, just that there are arguments (with which no one is compelled to agree) to justify most canon decisions/restrictions/values.
Commander Drax
SOC-12
I think someone has asked this question before, but here I go anyway, why does the life support cost so much. In MT most starships recycled water and atmosphere, and heat/climate control was supplied by bleed off heat from the fusion reactor, so in effect all that was needed from jump to jump was food and other basic essentials, life support should cost about CR100 per stateroom not CR2000, I think, any comments?
All systems are lossy, and contamination occurs. So I expect water would need replaced. Coolants would need replaced. Food would need replaced. And of course, the most important, carbon dioxide scrubber filters would need replaced! This last one is rather critical. Unless of course your entire ship is a greenhouse, and that comes with a whopping pile of other issues. And I've never seen that in your Far Trader deck plans...
The single most important part of LS is that CO2 scrubber... I don't see Cr100... that barely covers good food.
Now, LiHdroxide scrubbers can be recharged.
Trick is that you have to dump the resultant CO2.
I could see reducing LS costs to around Cr 250-500 per week per person.
What all is happening with LS:
1: Top off the O2 tanks
2: Buy food
3: recharge or replace the CO2 scrubbers
4: Replace or Clean the Dust Filters
5: replace worn out linens.
6: Replace lost/damaged tableware
7: buy cleaning supplies
5 & 6 are rpobably not included in the costs.
3, 4 & 7 are often forgotten by players.
Unskilled hull maintenance hours are MOP MEN!
Now, LiHdroxide scrubbers can be recharged.
Trick is that you have to dump the resultant CO2.
I could see reducing LS costs to around Cr 250-500 per week per person.
What all is happening with LS:
1: Top off the O2 tanks
2: Buy food
3: recharge or replace the CO2 scrubbers
4: Replace or Clean the Dust Filters
5: replace worn out linens.
6: Replace lost/damaged tableware
7: buy cleaning supplies
5 & 6 are rpobably not included in the costs.
3, 4 & 7 are often forgotten by players.
Unskilled hull maintenance hours are MOP MEN!
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