I was remembering it from the intro text to each TL Section in Emperor's Arsenal, for the most part.
Yes, but that is a huge improvement because of fuel energy density and endurance issues over fuel cells, batteries and other compact power sources.
Polities of the Long Night
- Thread starter TheDark
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I was remembering it from the intro text to each TL Section in Emperor's Arsenal, for the most part.
Yes, but that is a huge improvement because of fuel energy density and endurance issues over fuel cells, batteries and other compact power sources.
Which also says most surviving examples of TL-13 tech are Vilani... Hmm.
Note that according to the timelines in MegaTraveller Sylea never lost Jump, but was TL10 at the fall of the RoM/2I (-1776). While it's possible, one might suppose, for the Terrans to continue their extremely rapid TL advance (as they did in conjunction with the Darrians), it's seems unlikely given all the other material that makes no mention of the RoM ever pushing on past the TL12 level that the Terran Confederacy reached. That 'most' TL13 artefacts that survive from such a thing are on Vilani worlds... yeah, nah.
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I don't buy that either. The TC reaching TL13 and defeating the Vilani, imposing the RoM over the Imperium, and slowing down their infrastructure growth to accomodate absorbing and consolidating an existing TL11/12 empire I will buy. In 400 more years, TL13 is reasonable with some TL14 research.
On what page did you see the reference to surviving TL13 being Vilani?
Page 86, the end of the introduction to TL13:
"It is worth noting that extremely few examples of tech level 13+ weapon technology remains in existence, either in working or non-functional condition, and many descriptions are based on archeological finds and historical accounts, some of which may have been written and heavily slanted by the weapon manufacturer. Most period pieces are of Vilani origin, simply because of the much greater quantity available."
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Someone goofed with that entry.
Canonically the Ziru Sirka deliberately stagnated at TL11, refusing to advance to TL13. The Terrans advanced to TL12 and won the war, they would have taken TL12 with them.
With theTterrans in charge of the Ziru Sirka until the end of the Rule of man there is the possibility that some Vilani worlds made it to TL12, but how do you explain the TL13? Vilani worlds with considerable Terran presence researching TL13?
Canonically the Ziru Sirka deliberately stagnated at TL11, refusing to advance to TL13. The Terrans advanced to TL12 and won the war, they would have taken TL12 with them.
With theTterrans in charge of the Ziru Sirka until the end of the Rule of man there is the possibility that some Vilani worlds made it to TL12, but how do you explain the TL13? Vilani worlds with considerable Terran presence researching TL13?
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
It's the only explanation that's plausible.
A slightly more nuanced interpretation would be that there are (a handful) Vilani worlds scattered around that "went rogue" on technological research once they learned that TL=B wasn't the limit of possibility. Sure, it would be breaking the straight jacket of Vilani custom and practices to "stay in your lane, never do more than you're told to do" (etc.) ... but that can be rather easily explained via "corruption of norms" brought on by "cultural contamination" of Solomani ideas of How Things Ought To Be getting blended into Vilani culture.
If the Game™ won't let you "win" ... change the Game™ being played ...
It doesn't have to happen EVERYWHERE (all at once?
) ... but it can happen in a few places, where Mad Scientist/Mad Engineer types decide to "push the envelope" of what can be done with technology. The society at large remains TL=B-C, but some research into TL=D possibilities is taking place ... some of which survives the Long Night to become archeological finds later once the Third Imperium emerges from the Long Night.And given the location of the Sylean Federation (that becomes the Third Imperium), it "makes sense" that these isolated finds of TL=D prototypes (not all of which remain in working order) would tend to crop up on (formerly) Vilani dominated worlds.
After all ...
"In every revolution, there's one man with a vision!"
The problem is ... not all revolutions are successful.
One man cannot summon the future ... but he can change the present.
But he must also have the POWER ... and there are no guarantees of that ...
Remember, evolutionary pressure doesn't "try" to do the One Thing That Will Succeed™ ... instead, evolution tries EVERYTHING in parallel, including things that WON'T succeed, using a vast sample size (and lots of experimentation) ... and then lets the chips fall where they may ... wash, rinse, repeat. This means that there won't be a single attempt at advancement, but MANY ... and MOST of them will fail to catch on and take hold/rise to prominence (and/or dominance).
Those ... failures ... to reach TL=D are what are scattered around in (former) Vilani space, lying dormant until (re)discovered in the present time.
Breakthroughs are always possible ... but you still have to contend with the "Burn The Heretic!" crowd who reject change that they cannot control or do not sanction.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The Ziru Sirka knew that TLs above 11 were achievable, they even built secret repositories of forbidden knowledge. It is likely that Terrans gained access to one of these, and as you say once the Terrans have replaced the Ziru Sirka ruling class some Vilani may well have redicovered their adventurous spirit...
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Given how thinly spread the Terrans would be even after several centuries of the IW and RoM, after another 1700 years it's all going to look like Vilani worlds. There is also the pervasive cultural Darwinism of the Vilani: "Of COURSE it was us". They wrote the histories, "preserved" the records, and made no bones of reminding the new Imperium about their importance.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
All of Third Imperial history is an invention of Imperial propagandists.
The long night was a Sylean fiction, it is odd don't you think that when they converted to Empire all of a sudden there were pocket empires and even the Julian Protectorate (who obviously hadn't suffered much from a "long night") who required dealing with
The long night was a Sylean fiction, it is odd don't you think that when they converted to Empire all of a sudden there were pocket empires and even the Julian Protectorate (who obviously hadn't suffered much from a "long night") who required dealing with
JTAS 18, p13:
In other words, the Solomani were able to launch a wave of exiles ... DURING the Long Night... who migrated to the Spinward Marches 400+ years before Emperor Cleon established the Third Imperium.
Furthermore, by year 73 ... the newly established Third Imperium trade routes had reached all the way to the Sword Worlds and Darrian subsectors in the Spinward Marches ... multiple SECTORS distant from the Core sector. Considering the distance from the Sylean Federation to the Spinward Marches, that's an almost INSANE rate of expansion ... especially after the "stagnation" of the Long Night!
In year 73, the reigning emperor was Artemsus.
I'm in the middle of going through Behind the Claw, and that book has the Third Imperium reach the Marches even faster - the TI made contact with the Zhodani in 50, and by the time of that contact had already "mapped and explored the Marches for a few years previously." The first trade ports were established in 60, which started TI colonization of the Marches. This should be at Mora based on other sources. Regina was settled in 75 according to BtC (probably elsewhere as well, I'm just noting that it's in this book), and the claim here is that the Sword Worlds were individually contacted between 73 and 79 (their last interstellar government had collapsed in -80 and the next one formed in 104), with Imperial Scouts contacting Darrian in 150.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Ask Travellermap for a J2 route from Vland/Vland to Mora/Mora and you get this:
At a "2 weeks per 1 jump" operational tempo, that's a 2 year voyage on a one way trip.
If I wind back the clock on Travellermap to Milieu 0 - The Early Imperium, I can't make the route go all the way to the Spinward Marches (mapping only extends to Corridor sector with UWPs) ... but I can get PART of the route from Vland/Vland out to the Spinward Marches sector, and it looks like this. Worlds with type A-B starports on Travellermap will have bolded text and their UWPs appended to the jump route below.
Of that list, the only places that MIGHT be capable of annual overhaul maintenance of a starship ought to be ...
Any merchant making that voyage before the population along that route has "grown" above the Year 0 levels needs to be prosecuted for fraud, skipping or both. Coming out of the Long Night, there really isn't ANYTHING worth making trade voyages to in the Spinward direction beyond Vland sector for far too long a distance to turn a profit on whatever might be getting transported. There's barely anyone out there along this route to conduct trade business WITH!
The idea that within 70 years (a mere 3 generations) there would be enough starships goingwestward young man spinward all the way to Mora/Mora/Spinward Marches is laughable.
Also, I hope someone can explain to me how 4 type B starports in a row along this route can have TL=0.
And if you can do that, explain to me how Udgiin can have a type A starport, Pop/Gov/Law all code: 0 and be TL=9.
Are all the sophonts DEAD and the place has been overrun by robots keeping the type A starport in "fair condition" or something?
Granted, these UWPs are at the end of the Long Night ... so a variety of Dieback World circumstances are to be expected ... but under such conditions I wouldn't expect starports to remain operational (including construction and maintenance facilities still in good working order).
Please!
Somebody!
MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!
Spoiler:
At a "2 weeks per 1 jump" operational tempo, that's a 2 year voyage on a one way trip.
If I wind back the clock on Travellermap to Milieu 0 - The Early Imperium, I can't make the route go all the way to the Spinward Marches (mapping only extends to Corridor sector with UWPs) ... but I can get PART of the route from Vland/Vland out to the Spinward Marches sector, and it looks like this. Worlds with type A-B starports on Travellermap will have bolded text and their UWPs appended to the jump route below.
Spoiler:
Of that list, the only places that MIGHT be capable of annual overhaul maintenance of a starship ought to be ...
- Vland/Vland ... but with a Population: 3 ... pull the other one, guv!
- Ishuug/Corridor ... but with a Population: 1 ... okay, you ARE pulling the other one, but you really need to stop, mate!
- Aamgiuum/Corridor ... Population: 2 ... you're not making a strong case here, you know!
- Durima/Corridor ... Population: A and Industrial trade coded, but look at those Government and Law Level codes!
- Kilii Ar/Corridor ... Population: A, but look at those Government and Law Level codes!
Any merchant making that voyage before the population along that route has "grown" above the Year 0 levels needs to be prosecuted for fraud, skipping or both. Coming out of the Long Night, there really isn't ANYTHING worth making trade voyages to in the Spinward direction beyond Vland sector for far too long a distance to turn a profit on whatever might be getting transported. There's barely anyone out there along this route to conduct trade business WITH!
The idea that within 70 years (a mere 3 generations) there would be enough starships going
Also, I hope someone can explain to me how 4 type B starports in a row along this route can have TL=0.
And if you can do that, explain to me how Udgiin can have a type A starport, Pop/Gov/Law all code: 0 and be TL=9.
Are all the sophonts DEAD and the place has been overrun by robots keeping the type A starport in "fair condition" or something?
Granted, these UWPs are at the end of the Long Night ... so a variety of Dieback World circumstances are to be expected ... but under such conditions I wouldn't expect starports to remain operational (including construction and maintenance facilities still in good working order).
Please!
Somebody!
MAKE IT MAKE SENSE!
First Survey is (IMO) even less trustworthy than the rest of T4. A known programming error meant all the law codes and government codes were the same, and I wouldn't bank on the rest of it being accurate either*. If I was going to run a campaign in M0, I'd rather start with the current codes and back them up using Bill Prankard's method for worlds that would plausibly be populated back then (since some are explicitly noted as recently settled and thus should be X---000-0 during the Long Night).
*With that said, I don't currently have a copy of First Survey, so I'm not sure whether Traveller Map is showing the player-facing or GM-facing stats, since it had both.
*With that said, I don't currently have a copy of First Survey, so I'm not sure whether Traveller Map is showing the player-facing or GM-facing stats, since it had both.
Oh, for sure.
But those same Vilani made a virtue of never adopting a new technology unless it had been studied, and it's effects on society, exhaustively - and even that was abandoned in favour of 'no new tech' centuries before they were conquered. That kind of world-view doesn't disappear overnight. As far as I'm concerned, even Terran TL12 tech on old Vilani worlds would be a thin veneer over the top, and only simple improvements of existing items would gain any traction with the Vilani. A TL12 air/raft, a bit lighter, cheaper, and with longer-lasting batteries than the old Vilani standard models? Sure. Autonomous robots and gauss rifles? Nope.
And that's assuming that Terran policy was to allow access to the Good Stuff by Vilani (and that goes double when it comes access to cutting-edge research and tech). It undoubtedly did, on worlds long assimilated, but they're all out in the Solomani Rim.
One thing that is odd - the early 3I was Sylean and Solomani dominated, so why would they entertain a narrative that TL13+ finds were 'largely Vilani'?
That date (50) is in MegaTraveller's timeline, which also gives 60 as the beginning of colonisation by the Imperium. Of course there are plenty of non-Imperial inhabitants already, from Vilani fleeing from whatever (probably more from Vargr than from Terrans), to Solomani 'traders'. Recontact with the Darriands in 148.
Keep in mind that the Ziru Sirka was not a monolith of ethnic Vilani expansion into uncharted space that the Terrans had come into contact with. The Vilani of Vland had been a vibrant growing and technologically sophisticated culture at one point (even if it was slower measured growth by Terran standards) that encountered other sapient species with alien cultures and psychologies as they expanded, some of whom were minor human races, some of which were highly technological themselves, albeit w/o native Jump Drive tech.
At some point the Vilani, for reasons, had a socio-political shift and decided to transform their hegemony into an Imperium that imposed Vilani cultural norms, rigidity, and stagnancy as a means of consolidation and overlordship. Now all of these people were "Vilani" as part of the Imperium, or Ziru Sirka.
One of the contributory reasons for the Terran victory over the Ziru Sirka 1000 years later was the resentment of suppressed cultural groups within the Vilani Imperial region who were more than happy to aid the Terrans either after, or as an incentive for, liberation. These groups may have also included many native Vilani and Vilani Colonial cultural groups dating to before the consolidation who were not part of the "in" group of the consolidation crowd. These groups experienced new freedoms and cross cultural exchange after joining the Terran Confederation and then the RoM.
So afterwards, during the RoM, who are the "Vilani"? How did the Solomani use the term? How do the Sylean Solomani use the term 1500-2000 years later? During the Long Night, the Vilani cultural region survived as a polity and trade federation, and was dominated by the core reactionary conservative elements of their former "Imperial" culture. It was this region that joined the Sylean Federation to form the Third Imperium.
So when early Third Imperium texts refer to relic "Vilani" tech from the RoM, who are they talking about?
At some point the Vilani, for reasons, had a socio-political shift and decided to transform their hegemony into an Imperium that imposed Vilani cultural norms, rigidity, and stagnancy as a means of consolidation and overlordship. Now all of these people were "Vilani" as part of the Imperium, or Ziru Sirka.
One of the contributory reasons for the Terran victory over the Ziru Sirka 1000 years later was the resentment of suppressed cultural groups within the Vilani Imperial region who were more than happy to aid the Terrans either after, or as an incentive for, liberation. These groups may have also included many native Vilani and Vilani Colonial cultural groups dating to before the consolidation who were not part of the "in" group of the consolidation crowd. These groups experienced new freedoms and cross cultural exchange after joining the Terran Confederation and then the RoM.
So afterwards, during the RoM, who are the "Vilani"? How did the Solomani use the term? How do the Sylean Solomani use the term 1500-2000 years later? During the Long Night, the Vilani cultural region survived as a polity and trade federation, and was dominated by the core reactionary conservative elements of their former "Imperial" culture. It was this region that joined the Sylean Federation to form the Third Imperium.
So when early Third Imperium texts refer to relic "Vilani" tech from the RoM, who are they talking about?
I'll also reiterate that we know the Vilani joining the Syleans wasn't the start of the Third Imperium. They joined in -30 (which also expands our timeline a bit, since both the Vilani joining and the beginning of the push outwards started when Cleon gained power, not when he declared Imperium). We also can assume it was reasonably large, since it had to be mentioned that Answerin didn't join the Vilani. They're 27 parsecs from Vland via J-2 routes. Going that far west from Vland would put a ship somewhere around Brytsee/Narrows. I doubt they controlled worlds that far over when they joined the Syleans, given the chaotic nature of Corridor, but it's how far south they had reached before joining Cleon. There are also mentions of Vilani fleeing the collapse of the ROM through Corridor to the Marches, so that westward expansion could have been hastened by encountering worlds already predisposed to rejoin a Ziru Sirka.
I think that is one of those hidden-in-the-open threads of lost (suppressed?) history. You often hear of groups "fleeing the collapse of the RoM" or "fleeing the Long Night". What are they fleeing from and where did they think they were going in order to get away from it?
A possibly resurgent Ziru Sirkaa? Vilani fleeing a possibly resurgent Ziru Sirkaa employing a new higher TL base?
Leaving a world or small region in strife to settle on another world is one thing. Running multiple sectors thru uncharted (and sometimes empty) space to arrive at a new home vastly separated from your origins at great logistical cost is something different.
I read through the rest of Behind the Claw today, and there are no definite Jump-capable polities dating back to the Long Night. There is one candidate in Towers, which was "the seat of the Tower Clusters government" before they became part of the Third Imperium. It's two subsectors north of Mora.
Given the timelines we know about, a coalition arising during the Long Night probably makes more sense than Towers getting Jump after the creation of the Imperium and then making a really zippy race to control the worlds of the Cluster before joining the TI. The most likely driver for organizing the Cluster (IMO) was Junidy, given its population and tech level in the modern era (14 billion humans and 14 billion Llellewyloly and TL-11 in 1120, to Towers' 72,000 humans at TL-10). I would also suggest it was only the worlds within J-1 of Towers (Rugbird, Yebab, Nasemin, Feneteman, and Junidy) rather than the entire Cluster. Looking at the rest of the Cluster, Zykoca is extremely xenophobic, Aramanx was settled by Junidy in the 400s, Carsten only has a population of wildcat miners, Pavanne has no population, and Jesedipere has no central government, very little population (under 10,000), and is only TL-7. Limiting it to within J-1 of Towers could explain why it was the center of government rather than Junidy, particularly if the Cluster only had J-1 available at the time.
That's all speculative, so I won't include it on my list of known polities, but I think it's more likely than not.
Given the timelines we know about, a coalition arising during the Long Night probably makes more sense than Towers getting Jump after the creation of the Imperium and then making a really zippy race to control the worlds of the Cluster before joining the TI. The most likely driver for organizing the Cluster (IMO) was Junidy, given its population and tech level in the modern era (14 billion humans and 14 billion Llellewyloly and TL-11 in 1120, to Towers' 72,000 humans at TL-10). I would also suggest it was only the worlds within J-1 of Towers (Rugbird, Yebab, Nasemin, Feneteman, and Junidy) rather than the entire Cluster. Looking at the rest of the Cluster, Zykoca is extremely xenophobic, Aramanx was settled by Junidy in the 400s, Carsten only has a population of wildcat miners, Pavanne has no population, and Jesedipere has no central government, very little population (under 10,000), and is only TL-7. Limiting it to within J-1 of Towers could explain why it was the center of government rather than Junidy, particularly if the Cluster only had J-1 available at the time.
That's all speculative, so I won't include it on my list of known polities, but I think it's more likely than not.
