Polities of the Long Night

[GypsyComet]

T4 has ships already in Corridor during Cleon I's reign, mentioned in Missions of State. I was looking at that book today because I remembered it had an oddball one. The Vrast are Neanderthals that were placed on worlds by the Ancients, located somewhere in Diaspora Sector (it's south of Massilia in what's then Enigma Sector). They're TL-11 and Jump-capable when encountered during Cleon I's reign.

Much of T4 is a bit squirrelly when it comes to Canon. This was apparently on purpose, according to the launch seminar at Gencon, as they were trying to loosen the gatekeeping grip of so much *stuff* already published over 20 years. Even with that, some of the adventures and other writing is a bit more out there than we were accustomed to at the time. Exhibit A would be the decidedly odd collection of local alien sophonts in T4, and Exhibit B some of the adventures with eyebrow raising hardware, critters, etc. One of the adventures, written by Jim Ward, is easily more comfortable in a Metamorphosis Alpha setting than in Traveller.

Keep a salt shaker handy when reading T4 closely.

That said, the settlement year for Mora has been established for a long time, I think, with Rhylanor and Regina no more than 25 years later. Fleets in Corridor and high risk expeditions through Deneb and into the Marches under Cleon I is to be expected.

Relevant to the main topic of the thread, the Lancians are a late-era Long Night Jump-capable polity.

Been a while since I've read their founding article in Signal GK (the fanzine), but I think the elements that make up the Lancian cultural region go back much further, and they are not big Vilani fans.

 

[whulorigan]

Thank you, I'll pull that off the shelf and take a look. Hilariously, the Traveller Wiki doesn't list that as a source for two of the three:

Old Earth Union - MT Solomani & Aslan, CT Solomani, Traveller Chronicle 6
Easter Concord - CT Solomani
Dingir League - GT Rim of Fire, MgT Solomani Rim

Just more justification for why I ask questions here rather than try to rely on the wiki.

Note that the Old Earth Union formed from the earlier (and larger/much looser) Terran Mercantile Community.

 

[whulorigan]

JTAS 18, p13:

In other words, the Solomani were able to launch a wave of exiles ... DURING the Long Night ... who migrated to the Spinward Marches 400+ years before Emperor Cleon established the Third Imperium.

The ancestral origin of the Sword Worlders was an Old Earth Union warship that was on the wrong side of an internal conflict that had lost a battle . . . and the war. The commander and crew decided to get out of the region altogether and fled OEU space as fugitives to Spinward to find their own place and destiny far enough away that they would remain unmolested by the victors, encountering resistance first by other Terran-affiliated cultures and polities and then by early Aslan territorialists, they eventually discovered the J-5 Route and slowly (via multiple jumps) made their way into unclaimed space in the Transrift, eventually ending up in the Sword Worlds Cluster.

 

[mike wightman]

The Long Night is an Imperial designation, there was no Long Night for the Terrans, the Vargr, the Hivers etc.

It refers to the collapse of interstellar government post Imperial crisis. This crisis had practically no effect of the aforementioned polities.

 

[Black Vulmea]

Just a "There And Back Again" voyage would take 7.4 YEARS to complete (assuming nothing went wrong along the way, of course).

So, roughly two terms of service.

Frames of reference matter.

 

[jec10]

T4 has ships already in Corridor during Cleon I's reign, mentioned in Missions of State.

Can you give a page reference for that? I can't find it in a quick look through Missions of State (which, anyway, is written by a collection of authors, and is a mixture of adventures rather than a setting book).

T4/M0 says (page 3) that Cleon insisted that the first exploration of the Third Imperium was to Spinward "towards, and possibly beyond, the Great Rift".

Sylean expansion seems to have been rapid along the 'near shore' of the Great Rift - Gushemege, Verge, llelish and Zarushagar are listed.

The Vilani were more conservative according to M0, and only expanded slowly towards Deneb. They weren't keen to back the expansionist plans of Cleon, apparently (p.40) and rivalries between the Vilani bureaux and Sylean megacorps were strong.

"By Year 20, the Imperium seems destined to encompass about half of Dagudashaag, Ilelish, Massilia, Fornast and Antares, as well as a wide corridor to Vland though Lishun."

M0 says that towards Dawn the Aslan have been expanding "around the edge of an offshoot of the Great Rift, into Zarushagar and Massillia
sectors, with some Aslan outposts (mostly trade outposts) less than fifty parsecs from Core". (p.70)

 

[TheDark]

Much of T4 is a bit squirrelly when it comes to Canon. This was apparently on purpose, according to the launch seminar at Gencon, as they were trying to loosen the gatekeeping grip of so much *stuff* already published over 20 years. Even with that, some of the adventures and other writing is a bit more out there than we were accustomed to at the time. Exhibit A would be the decidedly odd collection of local alien sophonts in T4, and Exhibit B some of the adventures with eyebrow raising hardware, critters, etc. One of the adventures, written by Jim Ward, is easily more comfortable in a Metamorphosis Alpha setting than in Traveller.

Keep a salt shaker handy when reading T4 closely.

I'm probably a bit weird, but I find it fun to try to reconcile some of T4's weirdness with later (chronologically) settings. I haven't gotten to it yet, but for the Vrast in particular I figure they'd be on an Amber or Red Zone world in Diaspora, since the Psionic Suppressions would have led to a freakout about their inherent abilities. Likewise, the Ancient transit system from Gateway!/Long Way Home could be the source of higher-order Jump drives after lots (and lots and lots) of research.

T4 can also be hard to read closely since it's often vague regarding where adventures are set (probably in that "less gatekeeping" mindset). Quite a few only get what sector they're set in and maybe some planetary characteristics that matter to the adventure, which is both a boon since they can be shifted around at need and a problem since it means it's harder to get consensus on where they occur.

What I find funnier is that occasionally authors slip up with regard to what's known in-setting. The core books establish pretty strongly that the early TI has basically no information on Hivers or K'kree, but Anomalies has an NPC refer to a cliff as looking like a K'kree's butt.

Can you give a page reference for that? I can't find it in a quick look through Missions of State (which, anyway, is written by a collection of authors, and is a mixture of adventures rather than a setting book).

Pg. 17, left column, second paragraph: "The conquest of more advanced planets has already spread from Core through the Corridor Sector, and Massilia is almost completely absorbed."

 

[TheDark]

Looking for a place for the Vrast just to see if there is anything that doesn't wildly violate canon, the best Red Zone option might be Shelaghyote/Kushga (Diaspora 1620), with the Vrast being the "Minor Human Race" called Shela in the MegaTraveller era (Challenge #66 has an adventure there when Droyne appear unexpectedly). It has some problems, since the Shela were contacted by the First Imperium and the Red Zone is because of Ancient ruins discovered in 217. It's probably the best available Red Zone, but it's still not an option that makes me happy.

The other option, I think, would be an Amber Zone with a bad starport (E, maybe D), and there are a few options where I'm not aware of any disqualifying features (i.e. not vacuum worlds or hellworlds, not listed as homeworlds for other sophonts, etc):

Shareduu/Khavle (Diaspora 2609)
Erobi/Kushga (Diaspora 1612)
Khuugar/Shadigi (Diaspora 0518)
Kyzyl/Shadigi (Diaspora 0220)
Prosser/Shumisdi (Diaspora 1536)
Genevens/Madoc (Diaspora 2440)

The best option might be Kyzyl and its also-Amber neighbor Tomsk (Diaspora 0120), although Tomsk has a Class C starport. The only other neighbor to those two is their mutual neighbor Cod, which the wiki describes as a mostly-uncontrolled world of nomad bands. Kyzyl and Tomsk are just barely in the northern half of Diaspora, reasonably close to expeditions coming down from Massilia, and they're a rare case of neighboring Zone worlds that are both inhabitable without technological assistance. From those three worlds, the only other worlds within J2 distance are Yidii (Class E), Skebo (Class E), and Bobonong (Class A mostly inhabited by Evantha), which seems like enough of a backwater for the Vrast to be tucked away.

I now eagerly await someone pointing out a source that makes this impossible.

 

[TheDark]

I still need to read through the DGP aliens books again for details and also pick my way through GURPS Traveller (since the timeline divergence is well after the time period in question), but here's a summary of the late-Long Night "pocket empires" (so not the Zhodani or K'kree, for example) so far, along with notes on where each is located and (if known) roughly how large it was. I've organized them by sector, although the sectors are in no particular order.

Union of Sufren – Diaspora (Sufren). Four worlds.
Vrast – Diaspora (unknown) – non-canon suggestion is Kyzyl and Tomsk (both in Shadigi subsector)
League of Antares – Antares (Antares). Twelve worlds
Interstellar Confederacy – Core (Bunkeria, Cemplas)
Chanestin Kingdom – Core (Dunea) – centered on Keshi, TL-11
Santry and Cordova – Core (Dunea) – Santry is presumably centered on Santry. Cordova is less obvious (and I need to look into where it might be).
Sylean Federation – Core (Core, Kaskii). Twenty-five worlds soon before Cleon I took power.
Lancian Confederation – Gushemege (Tansa, Taapvaia, Isi Ahto, Ankhsusgar), Dagudashaag (Mimu, Old Suns, Shallows), and Corridor (Sashrakusha) – this assumes the modern Lancian Cultural Region maps onto the Lancian Confederation. One hundred eighty-one worlds are in the Cultural Region, although I haven’t checked if all of them are populated and it’s not certain all were part of the Confederation.
Vilani Confederation – Vland (Vland) – Kagamira and Kasear at least are likely since there are fairly short J1 mains from Vland to them.
Old Earth Union – Solomani Rim (Sol, Gemini, Dingir) – one world in Dingir. Nineteen worlds total.
Easter Concord – Solomani Rim (Concord). “Most” worlds within 10 parsecs of Easter. This potentially extends into a lot of subsectors – Madoc, Shumisdi, Hijirl, Suleiman, Vega, Esperance, Harlequin, and Khulam. The northeastern edge of Ultima is 10 parsecs away, but Obrichenny and Kropotkin are the closest worlds at 11 parsecs.
Dingir League – Solomani Rim (Dingir, Albadawi, Esperance, Alderamin) – assuming the “all worlds within 5 parsecs of Dingir” is literal and accurate, that includes a few systems in each of the other subsectors. Thirty-seven worlds total, I think, including ten worlds now in the Vegan Autonomous District.
Asimikigir Confederation – Amdukan (Julian) – the modern Confederation extends into Sakas and Vector subsectors and Mendan (Ganok, Kaasam, Valosak, Maidza).
Darrian Group – Spinward Marches (Darrian). Twenty-one worlds, including Entropic Worlds.
Sword Worlds – Spinward Marches (Sword Worlds). Eighteen worlds, not including Narsil or the Metal Worlds (based on “within 4 parsecs of Gram”).

While the Easter Concord and Dingir League are both potentially in Esperance, they’re at least 8 parsecs apart, since only Oort is within 10 parsecs of Easter and the closest the 5 parsec limit from Dingir gets is Ahhunsal or Muan Ialour.

 

[TheDark]

I went through GURPS Traveller Humaniti, and here are my notes on Long Night polities mentioned in that book:

Answerin – receive Jump Drive from the Vilani during the Long Night but did not become part of the Confederation. They join the Sylean Federation in -28, about two years after Vland. (Commentary) This implies some pretty decent travel distances for the Vilani, since Answerin/Parsi is 27 parsecs from Vland.

Darrians – a few more details come up in this book. The Darrian Group had mutual interlocking treaties and cooperative agreements, but the Darrian Confederation didn’t form until 148.
There’s also some detail on the Itzin Fleet. It departed Dingir in -1520, reached Vland in -1516, then proceeded through Corridor and Deneb to the Spinward Marches and stopped at Sacnoth in -1513 to survey the local cluster before completing their emigration to Darrian.

Dynchia – the Dynchia Comitia is said to have reached its current size around the time the Third Imperium was established. This is (according to Travellermap) twenty worlds across four subsectors of Leonidae Sector (trailing from Hinterworlds), between the Imperium and the Hive Federation.

Floriani – the Floriani had Jump by -40, a decade after they recovered an Aslan ship that had misjumped to Floria. Because Floria is 3 parsecs from anywhere else, it took time for them to explore their local systems. In 50 they encountered Vilani who had fled the collapse of the Second Imperium at Trossachs (/Mendrial/Trojan Reach). Their first encounter with the TI is around 150 in Pax Rulin, two subsectors away from their territory. The modern Florian League forms in 506 as a reaction to the existence of multistellar nations and reaches its current size around 700.
(Commentary) Knowing that at least one group of Vilani got all the way down to Trojan Reach makes me wonder how much of the rapid advance of the early TI was the Vilani finding planets populated by refugees from the fall and those planets agreeing to join because of the cultural noninterference pact Cleon I had made with the Vilani Confederation.

Geonee – the Geonee lost Jump drive during Long Night, but recovered it around -250 and formed the Second Geonee Confederation in -190, with core members being Hiponee (Massilia 1027), Lagna (Massilia 1029), and Shiwonee (Massilia 1430). Quickly reclaimed Rigaal, Dreva, Stenardee, and Ashavakuna. Contact with Sylea occurred in -150. Forced into TI slightly after 80, not fully integrated until after the Civil War. Pre-Vilani conquest colonies included Forquee/Forquee and Parahee/Oreo. Shokee subsector was also part of Geonee territory. (Speculation) Presumably Shimmer was also, since the easiest way into Oreo from Shiwonee goes through Shokee and Shimmer.

Iltharans – had Jump-1 around -1000, Iltharan Empire fought with Principality of Caledon starting around -100, encountered TI scouts around 100. Iltharan subject worlds conquered by 267 and capital (Drexilthar/Drexilthar, Reaver’s Deep 1826) bombed with nuclear weapons in 268 by Third Imperium’s White Fleet. (Speculation) The Iltharan Empire likely included what’s now the Confederation of Duncinae, since it’s on the easiest path from Drexilthar to the Principality of Caledon. Any path requires J2 or an alternative multi-jump process.

Kargol – Jump drive acquired from Shan’s Landing around -850. (Speculation) Based on the description in the book, the Kargol might be descended from Neandethals like the Vrast. Using the Travellermap Confederation, I would guess Lisisha and Milligan might not have been part of it early on, since they’re 2 parsecs from any other Confederation world. The rest of the Confederation is on J1 routes.

Yileans – the Second Empire of Gashikan lasted from -1646 to 1070. The current (Third) Empire is over 400 worlds and is implied to be smaller than the Second at its peak, but the size of the Second Empire during the Long Night is unclear at least from this source.

 

[Talifon]

Kargol – Jump drive acquired from Shan’s Landing around -850. (Speculation) Based on the description in the book, the Kargol might be descended from Neandethals like the Vrast. Using the Travellermap Confederation, I would guess Lisisha and Milligan might not have been part of it early on, since they’re 2 parsecs from any other Confederation world. The rest of the Confederation is on J1 routes.

According to the lore that I have read, the Kargol, like the Ziadd, in Dagudashaag, and the Suerrat are all descended from transplanted Neanderthals. However the canon for the Vrast seems more ambiguous. T4's Missions of State does say that they are Neaderthal descendants, but the wiki states that they are descended from an unspecified hominid (presumedly uplifted) that went extinct sometime after -300,000.

Vrast - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

 

[TheDark]

According to the lore that I have read, the Kargol, like the Ziadd, in Dagudashaag, and the Suerrat are all descended from transplanted Neanderthals. However the canon for the Vrast seems more ambiguous. T4's Missions of State does say that they are Neaderthal descendants, but the wiki states that they are descended from an unspecified hominid (presumedly uplifted) that went extinct sometime after -300,000.

Vrast - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

The Vrast article is another shining example of why I don't trust the wiki. As you said, Missions of State clearly states the Vrast are descended from Neanderthals. The wiki article makes other claims. What are the sources for the wiki article?



So here we have an article that explicitly contradicts its only reference. That doesn't build my confidence in any other claim it makes.

 

[Talifon]

The Vrast article is another shining example of why I don't trust the wiki. As you said, Missions of State clearly states the Vrast are descended from Neanderthals. The wiki article makes other claims. What are the sources for the wiki article?

View attachment 7348

So here we have an article that explicitly contradicts its only reference. That doesn't build my confidence in any other claim it makes.

It certainly makes me wonder about the retcon. But given that we now know much more about Neanderthals and human and hominid prehistory than we did in the 1990s –– For instance, we now know that there were Neanderthals and early H. sapiens not merely trading, but even living together in mixed communities and even family groups. So given the Vrast wariness about the more baseline humaniti, I find the retcon that makes them a somewhat more distant branch of the family, that benefited from uplifting, to be a more interesting retcon.

That said, where the Suerat established as Neanderthal-descended prior to Mongoose's Aliens of Charted Space?

 

[whulorigan]

The wiki is NEVER a primary source. It is based on its cited sources, canon, non-canon, and original authorship - preferably cited with in-line citations. ALWAYS check the references.

Original material additions should be attributed with in-line cites.

EDIT: Article corrected.

 

[TheDark]

It certainly makes me wonder about the retcon. But given that we now know much more about Neanderthals and human and hominid prehistory than we did in the 1990s –– For instance, we now know that there were Neanderthals and early H. sapiens not merely trading, but even living together in mixed communities and even family groups. So given the Vrast wariness about the more baseline humaniti, I find the retcon that makes them a somewhat more distant branch of the family, that benefited from uplifting, to be a more interesting retcon.

That said, where the Suerat established as Neanderthal-descended prior to Mongoose's Aliens of Charted Space?

Looking through the references listed for the Suerrat from the wiki, Library Data (A-M) just refers to them as "a human race" in a paragraph about minor races (and Research Station Gamma has the same paragraph). Interstellar Wars also refers to them as Human and I think Solomani & Aslan just has a drawing of them with other human subspecies (Zhodani, Geonee, and Cassilldan), but no actual description.

I don't have the Alien Realms fanzine or the T4 issue 26 of JTAS, which are the other two references for the Suerrat listed on the wiki.

As far as other meanderings on the evolutionary chain that the Ancients may have gleaned from, while I was going through Humaniti I wondered whether the Barnai Floriani might be descended from H. floresiensis rather than H. sapiens.

 

[Talifon]

I suspected that the notion that the Suerrat share 65% of their genome with the Neanderthals was a fairly recent addition to the lore (Aliens of Charted Space, Volume 4), and maybe it was an effort to give Humaniti more of a hard science-fiction grounding

Anyway if we go with the canonical date of -300,000, then the Ancients definitely have the option of H. floresensis, along with H. sapiens, Neanderthals, Denisovans (H. Longi), H. heidelbergensis, H. erectus, H. Naledi, and probably a few other lesser known species and subspecies.

If it doesn't mess with the canon, make it weirder.

Missions of State notes that the Vrast have been literate since the Ancients took them and seem to have kept literacy which definitely suggests some significant uplifting, and may grant them one of the longest continuously recorded histories of any human race (maybe the Florians and the Yaskodri, have similarly ancient archives.).

 

[whulorigan]

As far as other meanderings on the evolutionary chain that the Ancients may have gleaned from, while I was going through Humaniti I wondered whether the Barnai Floriani might be descended from H. floresiensis rather than H. sapiens.

No .

Spoiler:

The Floriani are actually Ancients-constructed biological Androids based on the Humaniti genetic pattern. They have no "descent" from Humaniti at all, other than being used as a genetic template without the unnecessary leftover or extraneous evolutionary DNA code. This is not generally known information, and the Floriani are very resistant to foreign biological analysis. While they can reproduce after the normal human fashion, the baseline Floriani are vat-grown.

 

[whulorigan]

Looking through the references listed for the Suerrat from the wiki, Library Data (A-M) just refers to them as "a human race" in a paragraph about minor races (and Research Station Gamma has the same paragraph). Interstellar Wars also refers to them as Human and I think Solomani & Aslan just has a drawing of them with other human subspecies (Zhodani, Geonee, and Cassilldan), but no actual description.

I don't have the Alien Realms fanzine or the T4 issue 26 of JTAS, which are the other two references for the Suerrat listed on the wiki.

As far as other meanderings on the evolutionary chain that the Ancients may have gleaned from, while I was going through Humaniti I wondered whether the Barnai Floriani might be descended from H. floresiensis rather than H. sapiens.

I believe the MgT material is the first reference to the Neandertal origin. I think it is somewhat unfortunate, as I think Homo naledi would have been a better choice (or at least as a component ancestral hominin), as there is a certain amount of evidence that they were slightly more arboreal to begin with than other contemporary hominins.

 

[GypsyComet]

The Vrast article is another shining example of why I don't trust the wiki. As you said, Missions of State clearly states the Vrast are descended from Neanderthals. The wiki article makes other claims. What are the sources for the wiki article?

View attachment 7348

So here we have an article that explicitly contradicts its only reference. That doesn't build my confidence in any other claim it makes.

The Traveller wiki has maybe a dozen regular or semi-regular editors, and has had several in the past who were, ah, "enthusiastic speculators". Correcting some of these, or just attributing them, takes time and effort. Heck, just finding and identifying them is a never-ending task.

And again, T4 was *purposely* written to be Canon fuzzy, so speculation to bring its material up to other edition standards is expected. We all wish that speculation was credited in the wiki, but proper credit and attribution, even self-attribution, has also been a long time issue.

 

[TheDark]

Getting back on topic (at least momentarily), I'm keeping an updated version of the polities-by-sector post I did earlier. Once I've gotten through a few more sources I'll post the updated version. I'm also adding a little speculation as I look at other sources, like the Floriani probably being so late to reach the Vilani at Trossachs (~90 years to go 4 parsecs) because going "southeast" first made more sense. Trossachs is in a small cluster of 4 systems within J1 of each other. Going southeast to Tibolt would put the Floriani on a J1 network of around 30 systems stretching down into the Hierate.

No .

Spoiler:

The Floriani are actually Ancients-constructed biological Androids based on the Humaniti genetic pattern. They have no "descent" from Humaniti at all, other than being used as a genetic template without the unnecessary leftover or extraneous evolutionary DNA code. This is not generally known information, and the Floriani are very resistant to foreign biological analysis. While they can reproduce after the normal human fashion, the baseline Floriani are vat-grown.

Ah, right, I do remember reading that in the Secret page on the wiki at some point, but had forgotten it. Do you know which source it's in? It's not in Humaniti. Depending on how it's phrased, being patterned on Humaniti might leave open the possibility of genus Homo but not species sapiens; Humaniti defines Humaniti as all sapient hominids, so the various descendants of Neanderthals or Denisovans would be part of Humaniti.

Humorously, while poking through the Humaniti article on the wiki, it became clear I'm not the first one to think the Kargol are good candidates for descent from Neanderthals: