Point Defense
- Thread starter Major B
- Start date
In which case you can just clone the Striker PD rules against indirect fire with the tech level of the fire control determining how many dice you get to roll to see how many incoming rounds are taken out. TL9=4D, TL10=6D, TL11=8D, etc. Each die roll is modified by the difference in tech level between incoming rounds and the PD fire control. The number of rounds taken out will effect the incoming firing sheaf - more than half original takes a normal sheaf down to a dispersed sheaf, more than half again takes it down to a scattered sheaf. MRL's have the number of rounds destroyed through PD fire cut by half. See post number 3 on this thread for detail.
Perhaps another addition to Don's errata would be a note in the indirect fire section of the Player's Manual pointing to the Referee's Companion for the full explanation of how indirect fire works. I had, apparently incorrectly, assumed this explanation of indirect fire only applied to the large-scale combat rules in the MT RC.
Perhaps another addition to Don's errata would be a note in the indirect fire section of the Player's Manual pointing to the Referee's Companion for the full explanation of how indirect fire works. I had, apparently incorrectly, assumed this explanation of indirect fire only applied to the large-scale combat rules in the MT RC.
Having read closely my Referees Companion, I'd have to say I think you're mistaken Aramis. It is clear the multiple-projectile indirect fire you refer to is limited only to the large-scale combat rules. On page 6 under the heading Conducting a Large-Scale Combat Session it says "Most of the personal combat rules apply...indirect fire has a few minor differences (covered below)." On page 7 under Indirect Fire it says "In large-scale combat, indirect fire consists of many ammunition rounds hitting a location instead of a single round".
So, the extra dice for higher PD FC TL will only be useful in large-scale combat where indirect fire results in multiple incoming projectiles, as opposed to standard MT combat where indirect fire is a single projectile each combat round. I'd say that the suggested errata posted by Major B on 3 January is spot on for the Players Manual.
So, the extra dice for higher PD FC TL will only be useful in large-scale combat where indirect fire results in multiple incoming projectiles, as opposed to standard MT combat where indirect fire is a single projectile each combat round. I'd say that the suggested errata posted by Major B on 3 January is spot on for the Players Manual.
Scott Martin
SOC-13
My rule books are currently packed, so it's worth my reiterating that I may be wrong... I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again
IIRC the "scatter" is rolled on the entire fire mission, and the scatter applies to the sheaf, not each round. This means that if your fire mission is large enough it's almost impossible to "miss" the center of it, it's just that your pattern around it won't be "centered" on what your aim point is.
for merely dozens of shells, you chance missing entirely... that's what forward observers and fire corrections are for.
That said, once you're at ~TL-9, unless you're firing "dumb" (unguided) rounds, hitting what you're aiming at is a pretty trivial excercise (even at TL-7 with laser designation. assuming that you're designating the correct target and not, for example a tennis court and expecting your rounds to scatter...)
Scott Martin
My rule books are currently packed, so it's worth my reiterating that I may be wrong... I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again
IIRC the "scatter" is rolled on the entire fire mission, and the scatter applies to the sheaf, not each round. This means that if your fire mission is large enough it's almost impossible to "miss" the center of it, it's just that your pattern around it won't be "centered" on what your aim point is.
for merely dozens of shells, you chance missing entirely... that's what forward observers and fire corrections are for.
That said, once you're at ~TL-9, unless you're firing "dumb" (unguided) rounds, hitting what you're aiming at is a pretty trivial excercise (even at TL-7 with laser designation. assuming that you're designating the correct target and not, for example a tennis court and expecting your rounds to scatter...)
Scott Martin
No doubt you're correct - for the rules in the Referees Companion (which only apply to large-scale combat and are pretty much lifted from CT/Striker). For regular MT combat this has no relevance.
On your last point, my experience of many, many Striker games is that laser designation plus CBM is god's gift to gunners. I completely agree that, provided you can afford it, making your munitions smart and CBM is the way to go. To beat the laser designation at mid-TLs though, you give all your vehicles laser sensors and anti-laser/prismatic aerosols. In which case, the gunner is back to dumb rounds because GPS doesn't make it into CT/Striker.
Major B
SOC-14 1K
Jec10, you just hit on the reason I designed the M560 system we've kicked around in the ship's locker forum - not just as an intel-gathering platform but also to use the Maser comm linked network for targeting. But that's a subject for another discussion thread.
Do you think we're set with the draft rules additions I posted last week, or do you want to make the change to allow PD fire while moving if the system has PD and stabilization?
I would like to finalize a proposed text and then invite DonM back to take a look.
Do you think we're set with the draft rules additions I posted last week, or do you want to make the change to allow PD fire while moving if the system has PD and stabilization?
I would like to finalize a proposed text and then invite DonM back to take a look.
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As I said, I'm not a big fan of allowing ground vehicles to conduct PD fire while moving because that isn't allowed in CT/Striker regardless of whether they have stabilisation systems. I can't see how the stabilisation systems are any different in MT.
But maybe a case can be made...?
But maybe a case can be made...?
Major B
SOC-14 1K
I don't see Striker disallowing it as a reason to do the same without knowing why Striker disallowed it. Do any of the books state the reason?
It seems reasonable given that the stabilization systems only allow movement at a relatively low speed in MT (20-120 kph depanding on TL). If you pay for the added expense (and space) of the stabilization and since the PD targeting module is doing the work from a stable platform when the vehicle is moving below the allowed speed, it seems plausible to me.
Probably deserves a negative DM but should be allowed.
It seems reasonable given that the stabilization systems only allow movement at a relatively low speed in MT (20-120 kph depanding on TL). If you pay for the added expense (and space) of the stabilization and since the PD targeting module is doing the work from a stable platform when the vehicle is moving below the allowed speed, it seems plausible to me.
Probably deserves a negative DM but should be allowed.
It simply says "because of the high accuracy required..."
I assume it means the bumping and random jerks from moving across country when trying to target a small and fast moving projectile. Different type of target than a large vehicle. Just to repeat and clarify - you buy exactly the same stabilisation systems for your vehicles in CT/Striker as in MT. At the time they wrote those rules they decided those stabilisation systems did not provide a stable enough platform for firing PD from moving ground vehicles. YMMV.
Major B
SOC-14 1K
I guess that's the 'big sky, little bullet' theory in reverse.
Makes sense when you state it that way. Hitting an incoming round or missile will be much more difficult than hitting a vehicle, moving or not.
Given that nearly all of my armored vehicle experience consists of watching the armor drive by, it still seemed like the tube moved a lot even with the stabilizer on. I suppose that a stabilizer doesn't really make the tube stable, it just makes it less unstable, if that makes sense.
That said, the standard for a rule should be 'plausible' not 'realistic' and what we've already written meets that standard.
Makes sense when you state it that way. Hitting an incoming round or missile will be much more difficult than hitting a vehicle, moving or not.
Given that nearly all of my armored vehicle experience consists of watching the armor drive by, it still seemed like the tube moved a lot even with the stabilizer on. I suppose that a stabilizer doesn't really make the tube stable, it just makes it less unstable, if that makes sense.
That said, the standard for a rule should be 'plausible' not 'realistic' and what we've already written meets that standard.
OK... Let's see if I can put all this into "errataese"...
Page 68, right column, Fire Control (revision): Add the following as the last sentence in the paragraph: "Vehicle mounted weapons with point defense targeting modules suffer no penalty when firing at moving targets."
Page 69, left column, Fire Combat (addenda): Insert the following section after the Direct Fire section:
Point Defense Fire: Direct Fire weapons equipped with a point defense targeting module can fire at incoming direct fire missiles, grenades, rockets, and indirect fire from mortars, howitzers, high-velocity guns, and mass drivers. Incoming rounds must be visible by direct line-of-sight by the point defense system for at least 150 meters of their trajectory in order to be targeted.
The range at which a point defense system can engage is limited by the shorter of the weapons range or the range at which a fire controlled weapon can engage with Routine difficulty (V. Long for TL 9-13, Dist. for TL 14+). Apply a +1 modifier to the roll for each tech level above 9 of the firing point defense targeting module (a TL10 module receives a +1, TL11 receives +2, etc.).
A marginal success on the task roll destroys one incoming round; if there is exceptional success (see page 71) each level by which the task roll is exceeded destroys another incoming round. The player firing the point defense weapon decides which incoming rounds are destroyed. Point defense weapons ignore the 'small target' difficulty level increase. Non-grav ground vehicles may not move if they are to perform point defense fire.
Page 73, right column, Indirect Fire (addenda): Insert the following paragraph at the end of the existing section:
Weapons with point defense fire control can engage incoming indirect fire rounds targeted to land anywhere out to the range at which the difficulty for the point defense weapon to engage them would remain at most Routine. The procedure is the same as for point defense against direct fire (see page 69).
You might ask why that text is blue... Because starting with the next draft, all changes since the last update will be blue. I don't know why I haven't done that before, it's how I track changes for my own use. I just thought tonight, "you know, I bet other folks would like that".
Page 68, right column, Fire Control (revision): Add the following as the last sentence in the paragraph: "Vehicle mounted weapons with point defense targeting modules suffer no penalty when firing at moving targets."
Page 69, left column, Fire Combat (addenda): Insert the following section after the Direct Fire section:
Point Defense Fire: Direct Fire weapons equipped with a point defense targeting module can fire at incoming direct fire missiles, grenades, rockets, and indirect fire from mortars, howitzers, high-velocity guns, and mass drivers. Incoming rounds must be visible by direct line-of-sight by the point defense system for at least 150 meters of their trajectory in order to be targeted.
The range at which a point defense system can engage is limited by the shorter of the weapons range or the range at which a fire controlled weapon can engage with Routine difficulty (V. Long for TL 9-13, Dist. for TL 14+). Apply a +1 modifier to the roll for each tech level above 9 of the firing point defense targeting module (a TL10 module receives a +1, TL11 receives +2, etc.).
A marginal success on the task roll destroys one incoming round; if there is exceptional success (see page 71) each level by which the task roll is exceeded destroys another incoming round. The player firing the point defense weapon decides which incoming rounds are destroyed. Point defense weapons ignore the 'small target' difficulty level increase. Non-grav ground vehicles may not move if they are to perform point defense fire.
Page 73, right column, Indirect Fire (addenda): Insert the following paragraph at the end of the existing section:
Weapons with point defense fire control can engage incoming indirect fire rounds targeted to land anywhere out to the range at which the difficulty for the point defense weapon to engage them would remain at most Routine. The procedure is the same as for point defense against direct fire (see page 69).
You might ask why that text is blue... Because starting with the next draft, all changes since the last update will be blue. I don't know why I haven't done that before, it's how I track changes for my own use. I just thought tonight, "you know, I bet other folks would like that".
Major B
SOC-14 1K
You captured what I posted earlier, but I failed to incorporate Scott Martin's suggestions, so here is my proposed amendment based on his post from January 3rd:
Page 68, right column, Fire Control (revision): Add the following as the last sentence in the paragraph: "Vehicle mounted weapons with point defense targeting modules suffer no penalty when firing at moving targets."
Page 69, left column, Fire Combat (addenda): Insert the following section after the Direct Fire section:
Point Defense Fire: Direct Fire weapons equipped with a point defense targeting module can fire at incoming direct fire missiles, grenades, rockets, and indirect fire from mortars, howitzers, high-velocity guns, and mass drivers. Incoming rounds must be visible by direct line-of-sight by the point defense system for at least 150 meters of their trajectory in order to be targeted.
The range at which a point defense system can engage is limited by the shorter of the weapons range or the range at which a fire controlled weapon can engage with Routine difficulty (V. Long for TL 9-13, Dist. for TL 14+). Apply a +1 modifier to the roll for each tech level above 9 of the firing point defense targeting module (a TL10 module receives a +1, TL11 receives +2, etc.).
A marginal success on the task roll destroys one incoming round; if there is exceptional success (see page 71) each level by which the task roll is exceeded destroys additional incoming rounds. The number of rounds destroyed doubles for each additional level of exceptional success (so a +4 exceptional success will destroy 1+2+4+8+16 = 31 rounds). The effectiveness of Point Defense fire is halved against multiple rocket launchers, which are designed to saturate point defenses (so, in the preceding example, the 31 rounds result would be halved to 16 when firing against MRL rounds: always round in the defenders favor). The player firing the point defense weapon decides which incoming rounds are destroyed. Point defense weapons ignore the 'small target' difficulty level increase. Non-grav ground vehicles may not move if they are to perform point defense fire.
Page 73, right column, Indirect Fire (addenda): Insert the following paragraph at the end of the existing section:
Weapons with point defense fire control can engage incoming indirect fire rounds targeted to land anywhere out to the range at which the difficulty for the point defense weapon to engage them would remain at most Routine. The procedure is the same as for point defense against direct fire (see page 69).
If anyone can suggest better wording to enhance clarity, please feel free to post a suggestion. This captures the mechanics that I think gets it right, but I'm sure someone out there can write it better than I can.
Page 68, right column, Fire Control (revision): Add the following as the last sentence in the paragraph: "Vehicle mounted weapons with point defense targeting modules suffer no penalty when firing at moving targets."
Page 69, left column, Fire Combat (addenda): Insert the following section after the Direct Fire section:
Point Defense Fire: Direct Fire weapons equipped with a point defense targeting module can fire at incoming direct fire missiles, grenades, rockets, and indirect fire from mortars, howitzers, high-velocity guns, and mass drivers. Incoming rounds must be visible by direct line-of-sight by the point defense system for at least 150 meters of their trajectory in order to be targeted.
The range at which a point defense system can engage is limited by the shorter of the weapons range or the range at which a fire controlled weapon can engage with Routine difficulty (V. Long for TL 9-13, Dist. for TL 14+). Apply a +1 modifier to the roll for each tech level above 9 of the firing point defense targeting module (a TL10 module receives a +1, TL11 receives +2, etc.).
A marginal success on the task roll destroys one incoming round; if there is exceptional success (see page 71) each level by which the task roll is exceeded destroys additional incoming rounds. The number of rounds destroyed doubles for each additional level of exceptional success (so a +4 exceptional success will destroy 1+2+4+8+16 = 31 rounds). The effectiveness of Point Defense fire is halved against multiple rocket launchers, which are designed to saturate point defenses (so, in the preceding example, the 31 rounds result would be halved to 16 when firing against MRL rounds: always round in the defenders favor). The player firing the point defense weapon decides which incoming rounds are destroyed. Point defense weapons ignore the 'small target' difficulty level increase. Non-grav ground vehicles may not move if they are to perform point defense fire.
Page 73, right column, Indirect Fire (addenda): Insert the following paragraph at the end of the existing section:
Weapons with point defense fire control can engage incoming indirect fire rounds targeted to land anywhere out to the range at which the difficulty for the point defense weapon to engage them would remain at most Routine. The procedure is the same as for point defense against direct fire (see page 69).
If anyone can suggest better wording to enhance clarity, please feel free to post a suggestion. This captures the mechanics that I think gets it right, but I'm sure someone out there can write it better than I can.
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Major B
SOC-14 1K
Semper Gumby:
Page 68, right column, Fire Control (revision): Add the following as the last sentence in the paragraph: "Vehicle mounted weapons with point defense targeting modules suffer no penalty when firing at moving targets."
Page 69, left column, Fire Combat (addenda): Insert the following section after the Direct Fire section:
Point Defense Fire: Direct Fire weapons equipped with a point defense targeting module can fire at incoming direct fire missiles, grenades, rockets, and indirect fire from mortars, howitzers, high-velocity guns, multiple rocket launchers, and mass drivers. Incoming rounds must be visible by direct line-of-sight by the point defense system for at least 150 meters of their trajectory in order to be targeted. When engaging direct fire projectiles, the firing point defense system must also have line-of-sight to the vehicle or object targeted by the projectiles.
The range at which a point defense system can engage is limited by the shorter of the weapons range or the range at which a fire controlled weapon can engage with Routine difficulty (V. Long for TL 9-13, Dist. for TL 14+). Apply a +1 modifier to the roll for each tech level above 9 of the firing point defense targeting module (a TL10 module receives a +1, TL11 receives +2, etc.).
A marginal success on the task roll destroys one incoming round; if there is exceptional success (see page 71) each level by which the task roll is exceeded destroys additional incoming rounds. The number of rounds destroyed doubles for each additional level of exceptional success (so a +4 exceptional success will destroy 1+2+4+8+16 = 31 rounds). The effectiveness of Point Defense fire is halved against multiple rocket launchers, which are designed to saturate point defenses (so, in the preceding example, the 31 rounds result would be halved to 16 when firing against MRL rounds: always round in the defenders favor). The player firing the point defense weapon decides which incoming rounds are destroyed. Point defense weapons ignore the 'small target' difficulty level increase. Non-grav ground vehicles may not move if they are to perform point defense fire.
Page 73, right column, Indirect Fire (addenda): Insert the following paragraph at the end of the existing section:
Weapons with point defense fire control can engage incoming indirect fire rounds targeted to land anywhere out to the range at which the difficulty for the point defense weapon to engage them would remain at most Routine. The procedure is the same as for point defense against direct fire (see page 69).
Check my work.
Page 68, right column, Fire Control (revision): Add the following as the last sentence in the paragraph: "Vehicle mounted weapons with point defense targeting modules suffer no penalty when firing at moving targets."
Page 69, left column, Fire Combat (addenda): Insert the following section after the Direct Fire section:
Point Defense Fire: Direct Fire weapons equipped with a point defense targeting module can fire at incoming direct fire missiles, grenades, rockets, and indirect fire from mortars, howitzers, high-velocity guns, multiple rocket launchers, and mass drivers. Incoming rounds must be visible by direct line-of-sight by the point defense system for at least 150 meters of their trajectory in order to be targeted. When engaging direct fire projectiles, the firing point defense system must also have line-of-sight to the vehicle or object targeted by the projectiles.
The range at which a point defense system can engage is limited by the shorter of the weapons range or the range at which a fire controlled weapon can engage with Routine difficulty (V. Long for TL 9-13, Dist. for TL 14+). Apply a +1 modifier to the roll for each tech level above 9 of the firing point defense targeting module (a TL10 module receives a +1, TL11 receives +2, etc.).
A marginal success on the task roll destroys one incoming round; if there is exceptional success (see page 71) each level by which the task roll is exceeded destroys additional incoming rounds. The number of rounds destroyed doubles for each additional level of exceptional success (so a +4 exceptional success will destroy 1+2+4+8+16 = 31 rounds). The effectiveness of Point Defense fire is halved against multiple rocket launchers, which are designed to saturate point defenses (so, in the preceding example, the 31 rounds result would be halved to 16 when firing against MRL rounds: always round in the defenders favor). The player firing the point defense weapon decides which incoming rounds are destroyed. Point defense weapons ignore the 'small target' difficulty level increase. Non-grav ground vehicles may not move if they are to perform point defense fire.
Page 73, right column, Indirect Fire (addenda): Insert the following paragraph at the end of the existing section:
Weapons with point defense fire control can engage incoming indirect fire rounds targeted to land anywhere out to the range at which the difficulty for the point defense weapon to engage them would remain at most Routine. The procedure is the same as for point defense against direct fire (see page 69).
Check my work.
