Ever go to Absurdistan when it still existed?
Marc stated things should be logical and realistic; which by both standards, things should not only not make sense, but should be quite insane, because that is the reality of the human condition.
Please tell me I'm doing something wrong (Heya)
- Thread starter rancke
- Start date
Ever go to Absurdistan when it still existed?
Marc stated things should be logical and realistic; which by both standards, things should not only not make sense, but should be quite insane, because that is the reality of the human condition.
Because the K6 III star's jump shadow is out to just shy of orbit 9. Which puts Heya weeks inside.
Putting the M8 dwarf in orbit 9 should provide, jointly, enough heat for hab zone if Heya orbits it in orbit 0 or 1.
Joint heat, eh? I hadn't thought about that. I assumed that out by the solar jump limit the heat from the K6 III star would be negligble. This is taking me outside my meager astronomical knowledge. Would it be possible to place Heya outside the tidelock zone of the M8 dwarf? What about visible light? Would the be enough for ordinary human operation in the daytime?
(BTW, I was using First In to determine orbital radius. That gives much greater flexibility.)
Hans
It should. The further from the M8D it is, the less its meager light will help, and the wider the range of effects will be.
K5 III should be 375☉ luminosity, and the DM should be about 0.01☉
375/x²+0.01/y²=(0.8 to 1.2) or so where X and Y are in AU.
orbit 8 is 19.6 AU, orbit 9 is 38.8
Orbit 0 is 0.2 AU, Orbit 1 is 0.4, orbit 2 is 0.7 and 3 is 1.0 AU
A moon will keep an orbit 0 world from tidelocking to the star.
So 375/x²+0.01/y²=1, solving using y=0.4
375/x²+0.01/0.4²=1
375/x²+0.01/0.16=1
375/x²+0.625=1
375/x²=1-0.625
375/x²=0.375
1/x²=0.001
x²=1/0.001
x²=1000
x=31.6 AU
For a cooler world, we need to solve for less; about 0.8Lre
the formula:
a/x² + b/y² = c
givena in L☉ (Luminosity in Solar luminosities)
b in L☉
c in Lre (Luminosity received in earth units - 1L☉ at 1AU)
x distance from a in AU
y distance from b in AU
b in L☉
c in Lre (Luminosity received in earth units - 1L☉ at 1AU)
x distance from a in AU
y distance from b in AU
Note: luminosities grabbed by looking for stars of that type in the catalogues, not from Traveller sources.
K6 III should be slightly less luminous, right?
Are you saying that the companion would orbit the K6 III star at 31.6 AU and Heya would orbit the companion at 0.4 AU?
According to BtC the surface temperature is somewhere between 284 and 294 K. The warmer it is, the more earthlike, so call it 293 K?
What would be the solar jump limit of the M8 D companion?
Hans
Per t5, the 100D limit of a M9 D is below orbit 0.
K6 should be slightly cooler, and yes, slightly less luminous. I'd have to look for a luminosity table.
Earth's is considered average of 288K. 293 K would be warm, not cool.
Cool should be aiming for around 278 K, IMO 5-10°C cooler. That's a median surface temp of 5°C.
Figure out the needed luminosity for your temp, then figure out where you need to be for that luminosity. I'll see about digging out WBH for better figures later.
If you have equation graphing software, run the solve, and pick so that you're outside the actual limit the whole companion-orbit, then find minimum and maximum primary insolation.
Excellent.
In that case, First In has an error. The table on p. 75 claims that the temperature range 295-302 K is 'Earth-normal' aq´´nd that 284-294 is 'Cool'.
I'm afraid not. All I have is the Windows calculator. I'm doing it all by hand.
Here's what I have so far:
Heya orbits a Class M8 D star name Yata, a companion of the K6 III star Fadiklis. [Can't compute orbital radius and period without knowing mass and luminosity of Yata]. Yata and its planets orbits Fadiklis at a distance of 31.6 AU with an orbital period of 162.16 years.
Heya has a habitable co-orbital body (often erroneously referred to as a moon) called Heya-minor, a world with substantial forest cover, with a diameter of 3000 miles and a standard atmosphere. Heya and Heya-minor are in almost identical orbits. Heya's orbit is a few hundred km shorter than Heya-minor's. Consequently Heya moves a tiny bit faster than Heya-minor, slowly catching up from behind. In another hundred years, Heya will get so close to Heya-minor that gravitational interference between the two will raise Heya's orbit a bit and lower Heya-minor's correspondingly. As a result, Heya-minor will begin moving slightly faster than Heya and draw ahead. In another 600 years, Heya-minor will catch up with Heya and the two will exchange orbits again.
[Yes, I understand that a co-orbital configuration is not stable. It would never have lasted long enough to produce the situation described here. But it's such an awesome phenomenon that I'm going to allow myself enough artistic license to make use of it anyway.]
Heya-minor is very lightly settled because of the uncomfortably low gravity, but a number of mines and other resource extraction operations exist. Some of these are owned by various Imperial corporations under licence. Sternmetal Horizons, Oberlindes Lines, SuSAG, and Spinward Minerals Supply are all represented. Heya-minor is currently orbiting x km ahead of Heya and has a squadron of SDBs stationed to protect it.
Mineral rights to Heya-minor have been leased to the interstellar companies for a pittance. Renewal is coming up in the forseeable future [1125?] and the The Heyan government is desperate to maintain sovereignty over Heya-minor. A substantial part of Heya's defense budget goes to maintain its force of SDBs, leaving its ground forces somewhat underfunded. The mounting guerilla activity is putting a strain on the troops, and Heya has begun skimping on maintaining its SDBs, diverting funds to the army.
Heya has a habitable co-orbital body (often erroneously referred to as a moon) called Heya-minor, a world with substantial forest cover, with a diameter of 3000 miles and a standard atmosphere. Heya and Heya-minor are in almost identical orbits. Heya's orbit is a few hundred km shorter than Heya-minor's. Consequently Heya moves a tiny bit faster than Heya-minor, slowly catching up from behind. In another hundred years, Heya will get so close to Heya-minor that gravitational interference between the two will raise Heya's orbit a bit and lower Heya-minor's correspondingly. As a result, Heya-minor will begin moving slightly faster than Heya and draw ahead. In another 600 years, Heya-minor will catch up with Heya and the two will exchange orbits again.
[Yes, I understand that a co-orbital configuration is not stable. It would never have lasted long enough to produce the situation described here. But it's such an awesome phenomenon that I'm going to allow myself enough artistic license to make use of it anyway.]
Heya-minor is very lightly settled because of the uncomfortably low gravity, but a number of mines and other resource extraction operations exist. Some of these are owned by various Imperial corporations under licence. Sternmetal Horizons, Oberlindes Lines, SuSAG, and Spinward Minerals Supply are all represented. Heya-minor is currently orbiting x km ahead of Heya and has a squadron of SDBs stationed to protect it.
Mineral rights to Heya-minor have been leased to the interstellar companies for a pittance. Renewal is coming up in the forseeable future [1125?] and the The Heyan government is desperate to maintain sovereignty over Heya-minor. A substantial part of Heya's defense budget goes to maintain its force of SDBs, leaving its ground forces somewhat underfunded. The mounting guerilla activity is putting a strain on the troops, and Heya has begun skimping on maintaining its SDBs, diverting funds to the army.
Hans
Well, I can't give you real data for M8D... but since neither FI nor WBH give real world data... (neither produces the correct value for K6III)
K6III Real World Exemplar data
Mass 3.0 Sol
Llunimosity 465 Sol
DC9 real world data
Mass 0.1
Luminosity 0.0000673
http://isthe.com/chongo/tech/astro/HR-temp-mass-table-bytemp.html
Note that a DC9 is twice the temp of a M8...
But... we can get brown dwarves in the m8 range...
Real world M8
Teide 1 M8 BD
Mass 0.052 M☉
Luminosity 0.001 L☉
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teide_1
K6III Real World Exemplar data
Mass 3.0 Sol
Llunimosity 465 Sol
DC9 real world data
Mass 0.1
Luminosity 0.0000673
http://isthe.com/chongo/tech/astro/HR-temp-mass-table-bytemp.html
Note that a DC9 is twice the temp of a M8...
But... we can get brown dwarves in the m8 range...
Real world M8
Teide 1 M8 BD
Mass 0.052 M☉
Luminosity 0.001 L☉
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teide_1
Last edited:
The basic problem, as I understand it, is that we have worlds like Heya being buried in the gravity wells - or whatever the heck it is - of these giant-and-larger stars. The game parameters were created before anyone had the idea of generating star types, and now we have these star types creating impossible game situations - apparently because the folk at GDW who rolled up the star types for Spinward Marches Campaign weren't really thinking about this kind of thing.
Now, in the universe we all call home, 90% of the stars are ordinary type-V main sequence puppies. Another 9% are white dwarfs. The other types are rather rare. However, in the Traveller universe, about 80% of the SWM stars are main sequence - and there are one whompin' lot of giant stars, like 10% of the sector, floating about giving us headaches.
My suggestion? Just declare that GDW "typoed" a lot of the star sizes and reset them to size-V main sequencers wherever it creates a problem. We can keep a few where it makes sense, as with a pop-0 world or some place with a type E or X starport. That should solve most of the headaches AND bring the proportion of giants down to about what we'd actually expect. So, Heya's primary becomes a K6-V.
Sure, it's not quite canon, but it beats heck out of trying to reinvent the jump limit or inventing some way a TL-5 world manages to participate in an interstellar economy from 3 weeks inside its primary's "dead zone".
Now, in the universe we all call home, 90% of the stars are ordinary type-V main sequence puppies. Another 9% are white dwarfs. The other types are rather rare. However, in the Traveller universe, about 80% of the SWM stars are main sequence - and there are one whompin' lot of giant stars, like 10% of the sector, floating about giving us headaches.
My suggestion? Just declare that GDW "typoed" a lot of the star sizes and reset them to size-V main sequencers wherever it creates a problem. We can keep a few where it makes sense, as with a pop-0 world or some place with a type E or X starport. That should solve most of the headaches AND bring the proportion of giants down to about what we'd actually expect. So, Heya's primary becomes a K6-V.
Sure, it's not quite canon, but it beats heck out of trying to reinvent the jump limit or inventing some way a TL-5 world manages to participate in an interstellar economy from 3 weeks inside its primary's "dead zone".
Actually, Carlo, the stellar catalogues have a higher than 10% rate of large stars... due to detection biases... and a whole lot fewer dim red stars. The DM stars listed in traveller are not even stars in the real world - they are substellar objects. Brown Dwarf Planetary Mass Objects.
If the catalogues have a higher than 10% rate due to detection bias - that is, because it's easier to see them and harder to see the smaller stars - then that means the actual percentage is lower than what we see in the catalogues, no? My understanding is that if you try to correct for the bias mathematically, you end up with the biggies being quite rare.
At any rate, I still think it's easier to correct the star than to revise the rules - at least on that issue. As for the other problems, (shudder) I don't know.
At any rate, I still think it's easier to correct the star than to revise the rules - at least on that issue. As for the other problems, (shudder) I don't know.
The problem is that we acknowledge the detection bias, but can't accurately correct for it. My own research on the issue is that the catalogue shows around 16% large stars. I rounded when getting my tables done, but it was MORE than 10%, as for 10% I'd have used a subtable for 4.
And it's not so much that we can detect the big ones easier, as we can detect them further by several orders of magnitude.
2 Size Ia/Ib/II
3 Size III
4 Size IV
5-10 Size V
11 Size VI
12 Dwarf (White or Brown)
2d6
Note that I based this solely upon primaries; there's a strong limit to my simulationism.
Last edited:
I took mine from current catalogues - and best fit to 2d6.
In other words, the rates in the catalogues hold up the Bk6 tables.
The D notation is still used, but no longer tied to the HR color index. Instead, a straight divisor is used from temp. D_9 means mid 5000's of Degrees in Kelvin Scale. The middle number indicates which emission lines are used.
Also, M_D aka DM dwarves of the old scale are again being noted - as Planetary Mass Objects. In other words, REALLY hot Jupiters.
Last edited:
Who is Don, and what errata?
Don McKinney, who is the official CT and MT errata keeper. (ISTR he's also doing the TNE and T4 Errata, but those I can ignore safely, so I'm not certain.)
He's also the guy who does Marc Miller's takedown monitoring.
DonM is his handle here.
http://dmckinne.winterwar.org/trav.html has his errata files.