Please tell me I'm doing something wrong (Heya)

[rancke]

I finally got up the energy to sit down and work out the orbital details for Heya.

Canon facts:

* Heya's star is a K6 III [several sources] (there's also a dwarf companion, but I'm postulating that it is in a really far orbit).

* Heya's climate is 'cool' (i.e. surface temperature lies between 284 and 294 K) [BTC:83].​

Using the formulas in GT:First In (using a surface temperature of 289,an albedo of 0.30, and a greenhouse factor of 0.15) , I arrived at an orbital radius of 1.16955.

Which leaves Heya (that busy tourist goal) orbiting almost 26 AU inside the solar jump limit, or a little under 23 days' travel by 1G. Even at 6G it's still 9 days and change.

I guess that a free trader that visits Heya is going to come up a little short on the monthly payments...


Hans

 

[aramis]

I finally got up the energy to sit down and work out the orbital details for Heya.

Canon facts:

* Heya's star is a K6 III [several sources] (there's also a dwarf companion, but I'm postulating that it is in a really far orbit).

* Heya's climate is 'cool' (i.e. surface temperature lies between 284 and 294 K) [BTC:83].​

Using the formulas in GT:First In (using a surface temperature of 289,an albedo of 0.30, and a greenhouse factor of 0.15) , I arrived at an orbital radius of 1.16955.

Which leaves Heya (that busy tourist goal) orbiting almost 26 AU inside the solar jump limit, or a little under 23 days' travel by 1G. Even at 6G it's still 9 days and change.

I guess that a free trader that visits Heya is going to come up a little short on the monthly payments...


Hans

Y'r doin' it right... Heya is a perfect candidate for a "far port"... a port at the jump limit as a solar orbital station, with system ships hauling pax and cargo to the world itself.

Or, you could put it around the companion, and have the companion out past the primary's jump limit.

 

[DonM]

Doesn't Heya have a TL of 5?

 

[rancke]

Doesn't Heya have a TL of 5?

Indeed it does. Why do you ask?


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Or, you could put it around the companion, and have the companion out past the primary's jump limit.

An arrangement like that might also "solve" the baffling descriptions found in the Heya campaign portion of GT:StarMercs.

Heya's "moon", where the campaign takes place, is too big and too far away from Heya proper. If the two were in some sort of orbital relationship around the stellar companion might the GT:SM description might after a fashion?

 

[Cryton]

Ok. I dont remember (and can't find) where the original thread for the following info is, but its here in COTI. If I could find it I'd credit the original author. I'm also not totaly sure which version of the Marches the author used. In any case, I'm reposting what I copied:

"Based on the assumption the mainworld orbits the primary star in the habitable zone and any companions are Outer Companions, the following systems are Jump Masked by the Primary Star. Third column gives how long dd:hh:mm:ss it takes from a standing start at minimum range where you come out of jump to accelerate at 1g, turn over and decelerate at 1g to reach the mainworld. Yes those top ones are 66 days!!!

There are some interesting planets in the list that may (or may not) have an effect on "canon". Menorb and Narsil spring to the eye immediately."

0723 Trifuge 66:07:30:02
1803 Menorb 66:07:30:02
1924 Ianic 66:07:30:02
2232 Crout 66:07:30:02
1216 Stellatio 46:21:21:39
1402 Farreach 46:21:21:39
1102 Riverland 33:03:45:01
1131 Faldor 33:03:45:01
1204 Mongo 33:03:45:01
1212 Digitis 33:03:45:01
1529 Steel 33:03:45:01
2933 Raydrad 33:03:45:01
2935 Murchison 33:03:45:01
0927 Narsil 30:16:43:18
2419 Cogri 30:16:43:18
1337 Judice 21:16:56:27
1733 Lydia 21:16:56:27
2134 Caledonia 21:16:56:27
2411 Keanou 21:16:56:27
2936 Hammermium 21:16:56:27
1909 Hefry 17:17:20:47
2402 Heya 15:08:21:39
0115 Xhosa 12:12:45:55
1116 Frenzie 12:12:45:55
1934 Weiss 12:12:45:55
2701 Lablon 12:12:45:55
2940 Thornnastor 12:12:45:55
3021 Brodie 12:12:45:55
3114 Huderu 12:12:45:55
0101 Zeycude 1:06:41:48
0129 Uniqua 1:06:41:48
0421 Zamine 1:06:41:48
0518 Faisal 1:06:41:48
0710 Stave 1:06:41:48
1018 Choleosti 1:06:41:48
1138 Tarsus 1:06:41:48
1515 Calit 1:06:41:48
1739 Aster 1:06:41:48
1935 Windsor 1:06:41:48
2036 Glisten 1:06:41:48
2309 Yurst 1:06:41:48
2406 Moughas 1:06:41:48
2415 Vreibefger 1:06:41:48
2418 Icetina 1:06:41:48
2720 Loneseda 1:06:41:48
3004 Zykoca 1:06:41:48
3008 Pysadi 1:06:41:48
3035 Prilissa 1:06:41:48

 

[Enoki]

It also would depend on the rest of the system. There could easily be a satellite around another planet or gas giant (if present) in the system capable of being the port too.

 

[DonM]

Indeed it does. Why do you ask?


Hans

Because I don't see a TL 5 world having much of a highport, and definitely not a farport. But that's just me...

 

[Carlobrand]

Oh my stars and garters!! Nine weeks??

Uh, I have a thought. A lot of discussion about why the 100-diameter limit is the 100 diameter limit. One of several ideas tossed around has to do with the strength of gravity out at that point. So ... is there some point between Menorb and its primary where the gravitational forces of the two would cancel each other out and permit jump, or is that just asking the jump drive to get shredded by two gravitational sources instead of one?

 

[aramis]

Oh my stars and garters!! Nine weeks??

Uh, I have a thought. A lot of discussion about why the 100-diameter limit is the 100 diameter limit. One of several ideas tossed around has to do with the strength of gravity out at that point. So ... is there some point between Menorb and its primary where the gravitational forces of the two would cancel each other out and permit jump, or is that just asking the jump drive to get shredded by two gravitational sources instead of one?

KRUNCH-BOOM!
:devil:

Marc has never actually given a gravity threshold, nor a gradient threshold.

Note that if using a gravity gradient* based upon a size 8 world, other sizes don't work to be 100D; and stars drop rapidly.

Earth's 100 diameter limit is 1/40,000 of 1G; a force of 0.00025m/s/s
Sol's surface gravity is 274m/s/s; getting to the 0.00025m/s/s should be some 523.something diameters... 47 AU... well past neptune's aphelion of roughly 30.45AU.

 

[BytePro]

Having the benefit of a limited CT collection (essentially first 6 books till the reprints), my definition of the safe jump limits was based solely on the Bk 2 pg 4 description and pg 11 Misjump.

I calculated a safe Jump Density Threshhold based on the local density of matter...​

The 100 diameter guaranteed (13+ for Misjump) - with refined fuel and regular maintenance - safe jump limit is based on distance from a world. World in Traveller generally refers to terrestrial world (Gas Giants being explicitly spelled out otherwise) - and terrestrial worlds, from Scouts, are assumed to have the same density as Earth. Scouts mentions mis-jumps being more probably between 20 and 200 radii from a star (i.e. 10 to 100 diameters), just like worlds, but the phrasing is loose enough that I take that as the safe distance is within those ranges.

Thus, I use 'density of matter' in a region of space - measured as a spherical volume of space centered around the center of mass of the ship/planet, i.e. the planet's center - as the 'threshhold' for a safe jump. Extrapolating from 100 dia and the Earth's mass (ignoring the Moon for the book example of a size 8 world) - yields this Jump Density Threshhold. With terrestrial planets having the same density - safe jump is 100D from main worlds regardless of size.

Working backwards, one could find the safe jump limit for a star or other body = cube root of (mass divided by Jump Density Threshhold divided by 4/3 pi). Taking into account 'nearby' bodies when such are within the safe distance (i.e the Earth Moon system).

IIRC, this simplified to X diameters for safe jump = cube root of the density in 'earth densities'. (So sun would be ~0.6 AUs I think - though it is late in my area, so might not count on my thinking...).

I never actually used this system - in play, players generally jumped to/from worlds where the 100D limit would apply and my custom systems only had ordinary stars...

 

[rancke]

Y'r doin' it right... Heya is a perfect candidate for a "far port"... a port at the jump limit as a solar orbital station, with system ships hauling pax and cargo to the world itself.

My problem is that I've been working on an adventure set on Heya, and I've based the background material on the information in "The Ship in the Lake". And there is no mention whatsoever of an extra two week[*] in-system travel time. Sure, absence of evidence is not proof of absence, but if there's a writeup where you'd expect it to be mentioned, it is strong evidence of absence. I also can't help feeling that star travel is expensive enough and takes long enough without adding two long trips in normal space. Doing so must surely discourage tourist trade considerable. Enough, IMO, to make Heya a most unattractive tourist goal. YMMV.

[*] Rough average of 1G and 6G travel time, used for the sake of brevity.​

Still, that's not the real problem. The real problem is that I've come up with a lot of new, and even if I do say so myself, nifty background material. History and customs and NPCs and a map. And with that extra in-system travel time, I have to face the fact that it's going to be of very limited use to anyone outside of running the adventure itself.

Fortunately, the adventure involves someone hiring the PCs to go to Heya and perform a task, so that provides the necessary motivation to go down on the surface. But what band of free traders are going to go there for a casual visit and get caught up in events?

I have some more general thoughts along this line, but I'll put them in another reply.

Or, you could put it around the companion, and have the companion out past the primary's jump limit.

I though about that, but the companion is a dwarf, so that would make Heya tidebound, something else that the original amber zone failed to mention.


Hans

 

[rancke]

In any case, I'm reposting what I copied:

"Based on the assumption the mainworld orbits the primary star in the habitable zone...

This is only a requirement if the mainworld has breathable air (and thus an active biosphere).

... and any companions are Outer Companions, the following systems are Jump Masked by the Primary Star.

That would be jump shadowed, being inside a star's jump shadow. Jump masking is having a jump shadow lying between beginnning and end of a trip, preventing a direct jump.

...Third column gives how long dd:hh:mm:ss it takes from a standing start at minimum range where you come out of jump to accelerate at 1g, turn over and decelerate at 1g to reach the mainworld. Yes those top ones are 66 days!!!

There are some interesting planets in the list that may (or may not) have an effect on "canon". Menorb and Narsil spring to the eye immediately."

The big problem here is that while solar jump limits have been implicit since Mark Miller's jumpspace essay and explicit since he explicitly stated, in connection with GT, that they existed, everyone has blithely ignored them throughout Traveller's history. I'm morally certain that "The Ship in the Lake" does not fail to mention a long in-system trip because the author didn't think it important enough to mention but because he didn't think about it at all (Indeed, he couldn't have; star types hadn't been rolled up yet).

But the worst problem is that none of the rules (except in FT) take it into account. That's especially fatal for the trade system. Arriving at Heya's farport (assuming for purposes of argument that Heya has a farport -- a very iffy assumption IMO), the players can sell their load of speculative cargo just as if they were on the surface of Regina or Efate. They collect freight and passengers with exactly the same odds as anywhere else. There is not a hint of a suggestion that maybe things aren't quite like on the average world.

"We sell our widgets."

"Sure. There's always a market for widgets on an agricultural world (hence the price DM). Let's see... The broker manages to get you an offer of 130%. But from that you'll have to deduct the cost of transporting the widgets from the port to Heya. Unless you want to deliver them yourself?""

"We look around for freight."

"There isn't any. Transportation costs from Heya to here means no one sends anything unless they already have a contract with a ship to carry it away. The regular freight companies do it all. Nothing left over for tramps."

"What about speculative cargo then?"

"What do you think?"

"OK, OK, we'll just get what passengers there is to be had and be on our way. And we're never coming back!"

"Same problem as with freight. People don't come all the way out here on spec. They've all paid for tickets on regular liners. There are some poor, desperate travelers who got stuck here on the station without enough money to pay for the trip to Heya. They don't have much money, though. Not even enough to pay for life support cost. Which reminds me, your stores are running low after that string of Class E starports you've visited lately. Do you wish to stock up here? It'll cost you more than the average cost, of course."

"Let's get OUT of here!"

"Right. You jump to Kinorb. While you're there, a man offers you a freight to Heya. It has to be delivered to the surface, but he'll pay the regulation Cr1000 per d-ton, of course. What do you say? More money? No no no, the Imperial regulations do not permit you to charge more than Cr1000 per..."​

Even FT doesn't actually take jump masking/shadowing into account when working out freight and passenger rates despite having rules for figuring out how much longer a jump will take due to to it.


Hans

 

[rancke]

It also would depend on the rest of the system. There could easily be a satellite around another planet or gas giant (if present) in the system capable of being the port too.

Heya has to be in the life zone of one of the two stars.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Because I don't see a TL 5 world having much of a highport, and definitely not a farport. But that's just me...

No, it's not just you. But then, I don't see a TL 5 world having much of a boatyard either, and Heya must have one of those to qualify for a Class B starport.

First of all, what does a TL 5 civilization need spaceboats for in the first place? Well, if they have a farport, that question answers itself. If. Is Heya's trade actually enough to pay for a farport and the necessary infrastructure? I find that difficult to believe, but I can't provide actual figures to refute it.

My own preference would be to say that the interstellar mining companies that exploit Heya-minor also pay for a starport there and that most of the interplanetary traffic bypasses Heya completely. Class C starport on Heya, Class [whatever corresponds to B for spaceports] spaceport on Heya-minor, combine to a starport rating of B in the highly condensed UWP.

But that doesn't explain why the facility on Heya-minor has a boatyard. Why pay for the components of a yard to be shipped in and for workers to construct the yard to be shipped in and for boat components to be shipped in and for workers to run the yard to be shipped in? Surely it would be cheaper to buy boats at Efate and have them shipped in whole. Unless, of course, Heya-minor doesn't just have some mines but also an entire infrastructure dedicated to manufacturing subcomponents. But in that case, why stop short of building starships?

No, I don't think the boatyard makes any sort of sense.


Hans

 

[Easterner9504]

Because I don't see a TL 5 world having much of a highport, and definitely not a farport. But that's just me...

Heya is Class B port so has to have an orbital facility. Local tech is irrelevant to port. If someone needs a port they build it. aka Truk and Rabaul. Both B class ports on TL0 islands.

Curiosity?
Why isn't this useable? I can't imagine it is any less canon than doing it yourself and both the moon and secondary star are present.

http://foreven.com/astro/spinward/regina/Heya.htm

 

[rancke]

Heya is Class B port so has to have an orbital facility.

Where does it say that? It has to have a boatyard, but that could be one that only construct streamlined boats down on the surface.

That said, Heya's starport is called Atarishii Down, so there probably is supposed to be an Atarishii High.

But an orbital component to a starport is not the same thing as a farport.

Local tech is irrelevant to port.

It most certainly is not. If local tech is not up to supporting a starport, everything becomes more expensive because it has to be shipped in. Any explanation will have to account for why anyone would pay that surcharge.

If someone needs a port they build it. aka Truk and Rabaul. Both B class ports on TL0 islands.

Yes, but lack of local support infrastructure raises the bar for the need. An explanation that doesn't really work is not an explanation at all. Who buys the spaceboats the yard builds? Who goes to Heya to have their annual maintenance if it will cost them an extra 46 days of not earning revenue? Every day a commercial starship isn't transporting passengers and/or stuff, it's losing money. 46 extra days of not doing anything constructive is a sizable chunk of the yearly income. Quite enough to drive the ship into bankruptcy.


Hans

 

[Easterner9504]

Where does it say that? It has to have a boatyard, but that could be one that only construct streamlined boats down on the surface. THAT'S EASY RANKE SAYS SO IN THE NEXT POST.

That said, Heya's starport is called Atarishii Down, so there probably is supposed to be an Atarishii High. YOU HAVE AN AMAZING ABILITY TO NULLIFY YOUR OWN ANSWERS

But an orbital component to a starport is not the same thing as a farport. NEVER SAID IT WAS AS DON'T RECALL HAVING HEARD OF A FARPORT TILL READING THIS THREAD.


It most certainly is not. If local tech is not up to supporting a starport, everything becomes more expensive because it has to be shipped in. Any explanation will have to account for why anyone would pay that surcharge. THE GOVERNMENT aka 3rd IMPERIUM. COST IS NO OBJECT!



Yes, but lack of local support infrastructure raises the bar for the need. An explanation that doesn't really work is not an explanation at all. Who buys the spaceboats the yard builds? IRRELEVANT, B SAYS IT BUILDS THEM NO WHERE IN ANY TRAV BOOK DOES IT STATE SOMEONE MUST BUY THEM. Who goes to Heya to have their annual maintenance if it will cost them an extra 46 days of not earning revenue? WHO KNOWS, WHO CARES IT HAS B CLASS PORT IPSO FACTO ERGO SUM. Every day a commercial starship isn't transporting passengers and/or stuff, it's losing money. 46 extra days of not doing anything constructive is a sizable chunk of the yearly income. Quite enough to drive the ship into bankruptcy. THE 46 DAYS COMES FROM HANS, NO WHERE ELSE, THE ODD CHART YOU FAILED TO COMMENT ON IS DIFFERENT ARRANGEMENT; SO UNLESS YOU CAN TELL ME WHY IT IS LESS VALID THAN YOUR 'SYSTEM' YOUR RE-INVENTING HERE, IT SHOULD BE AS VALID AS YOURS. I'VE ENCOUNTERED IT BEFORE BUT HAVE NO IDEA WHO MADE THEM OR WHY.


Hans

Hans you must never leave the confines of Copenhagen. So I'll give you a lesson on life, gratis.

You can travel Earth from pole to pole, visit ocean cities, desert cities, jungle cities and mountain cities and find a common fascinating theme.

They are filled with unused/under used hotels, ports, airports, roads, light rail, buses, bridges to nowhere, trains to nowhere.

Many, as in low tech backwards Africa were built in '60's as 1st world nations had them already, so they wanted one too (see Entebbe). What 95% of these useless boondoggles have in common is that they were built by a Government either wasting its own resources or a benefactors resources i.e. USA. USSR etc. But they were built, all too often designed by ignorant bureaucrats who thought they were smart but never bothered to learn local customs/rules/geological issues etc. So even when government built something useful it could get wiped by volcano/earthquake/tidal wave/weird tides/rock-mud slides etc and needs get built again. All easily avoided if left to experts...but no....the self anointed elites know better than common folks who lack Harvard degrees and so nonsense occurs in the name of progress.

That and pretty much that (military/travel needs cause odd stations to be built too aka Truk, Rabaul, Mulberrys, Dutch Harbor, Wake, Midway) explains all the off-the wall crazy planets in TRAV that have vexed you over the years. So a government at some level from local to Imperial level said BUILD IT AND HOPEFULLY SOMEONE WILL COME.

 

[Enoki]

Heya has to be in the life zone of one of the two stars.


Hans

That doesn't preclude a less desirable planet or satellite of a gas giant further out in the system from being somewhat habitable in addition to the main world when using extended system generation. So, it should be possible to have a port on such a world. I have generated a number of systems that had such worlds and even ones where there was some secondary port on that world.

 

[rancke]

Where does it say that? It has to have a boatyard, but that could be one that only construct streamlined boats down on the surface.

THAT'S EASY RANKE SAYS SO IN THE NEXT POST.

That doesn't answer the question I asked. You said that since it has a Class B starport it HAS to have a highport. I asked where it says that a Class B starport HAS to have a highport. Not likely to have one, not whether Heya's Class B starport has one, but that every single Class B starport in Charted Space HAS to have a highport.

That said, Heya's starport is called Atarishii Down, so there probably is supposed to be an Atarishii High.

YOU HAVE AN AMAZING ABILITY TO NULLIFY YOUR OWN ANSWERS.

Actually, I usually try to frame what I say quite carefully. In this case I said that Heya is probably supposed to have a highport. I said nothing about how much sense that made or that it HAD to have one just because it had a Class B rating.

But an orbital component to a starport is not the same thing as a farport.

NEVER SAID IT WAS AS DON'T RECALL HAVING HEARD OF A FARPORT TILL READING THIS THREAD.

It's in the post you were replying to.

It most certainly is not. If local tech is not up to supporting a starport, everything becomes more expensive because it has to be shipped in. Any explanation will have to account for why anyone would pay that surcharge.

THE GOVERNMENT aka 3rd IMPERIUM. COST IS NO OBJECT!

That's just silly. Cost is always an object. Otherwise all starports would be Class A.

Yes, but lack of local support infrastructure raises the bar for the need. An explanation that doesn't really work is not an explanation at all. Who buys the spaceboats the yard builds?

IRRELEVANT, B SAYS IT BUILDS THEM NO WHERE IN ANY TRAV BOOK DOES IT STATE SOMEONE MUST BUY THEM.

Actually, Marc Miller has stated that the setting must make sense. Even if he hadn't and even if it wasn't in a rule book, I consider it a given. Not something that's up for debate and certainly not an argument that works to refute anything. "It doesn't have to make sense"! That's just pure unadulterated 200 proof balderdash!

Who goes to Heya to have their annual maintenance if it will cost them an extra 46 days of not earning revenue?

WHO KNOWS, WHO CARES IT HAS B CLASS PORT IPSO FACTO ERGO SUM.

I care, other people care, and if you don't, feel free to keep out of the discussion. No, really, you don't have to contribute if you don't have anything pertinent to contribute. It's not mandatory.

Every day a commercial starship isn't transporting passengers and/or stuff, it's losing money. 46 extra days of not doing anything constructive is a sizable chunk of the yearly income. Quite enough to drive the ship into bankruptcy.

THE 46 DAYS COMES FROM HANS, NO WHERE ELSE, THE ODD CHART YOU FAILED TO COMMENT ON IS DIFFERENT ARRANGEMENT; SO UNLESS YOU CAN TELL ME WHY IT IS LESS VALID THAN YOUR 'SYSTEM' YOUR RE-INVENTING HERE, IT SHOULD BE AS VALID AS YOURS. I'VE ENCOUNTERED IT BEFORE BUT HAVE NO IDEA WHO MADE THEM OR WHY.

Well, if you care to calculate the time it will take a ship equipped with 1G maneuver drive to get from the solar jump limit of a K6 III star to the life zone of that same star and can show that I miscalculated, that's fine. I'm always happy to be shown when I've miscalculate and to correct my mistakes. Otherwise, no, it's not as valid as mine. The one that is right is valid, the other one isn't.

And even though I'd welcome a double-check on my calculations, it really doesn't matter to the main point of the argument if it's 46 days or 30 or 50. Going to Heya's orbit for annual maintenance will cause an avoidable loss of revenue. Since it will be avoidable, no company will send their ships to Heya to be maintained. Ipso facto ergo sum lektiles kulitorum femihvertrum.

Hans you must never leave the confines of Copenhagen. So I'll give you a lesson on life, gratis.

And worth precisely what it costs, I see.


Hans