Personal Enhancement & Augmentation

[Ulsyus]

I haven't been able to find anything on personal augmentation, either cybernetically or biologically, in the T5 B³.

I have it available in MTU, with the players particularly interested in the bioware that becomes available at TL13, but it's considered gauche for overt or over-the-top augmentation to be fitted. It becomes a security issue, and while there are some wild areas even in the 3I, the local SPA facilities are not Night City in my campaign, with high law levels to prevent spacers doing something on impulse that they and everyone else will regret later on.

Have I missed it, or is it a topic that has been left out or avoided? Is it considered too hard to retcon this into the OTU, or has it been left entirely to refs to include in YTU?

 

[Ackehece]

I would argue that in clones and in children the first D is a genetic D and the second is a background D. That would suggest that with Genetic Engineering (get a Solmani to do it) you could potentially maximize that Die - you would still need to roll the 2nd D for Humans pg113

I would also allow it for C1-C4 and no further Education / Social probably should not be Genetically engineer-able but could be inheritable. Education in that they grew up in an educated environment and social as your born to your class in most cases.

see page 115 "GENEERING
Genes can be edited using a variety of medical techniques.
Gene editing (Geneering) is one rationale behind
Acquired Characteristic Increases in Character Generation. ***** implies almost all characters are geneered during character generation!*****
For a variety of reasons (including game balance), edited
genes are Recessive.
Character generation increases in characteristics
which meet this criterion: an individual who receives genetic
change in C1, C2, C3, C4, or Instinct has that Gene marked
Recessive. That does not prevent such a Recessive from
later becoming Standard or even Dominant through various
mutations."


Cybernetics - I would use the robot chapter for potential parts
arms, legs, armor, weapons, sensors.... all there
and built for sophonts pg 561

 

[Reban]

As far as I can see there are no cybernetic enhancement rules, although you could probably use the robot components as a guide.

I'd be interested in everyones thoughts on bio augmentation. There are rules for genetics, so operations or therapies for simple stat increases should be possible. There are also the rules on Synthetics especially Organic Devices. It should be possible to build organs and biomods.

The problem is there are no guidelines.

 

[Ackehece]

As far as I can see there are no cybernetic enhancement rules, although you could probably use the robot components as a guide.

I'd be interested in everyones thoughts on bio augmentation. There are rules for genetics, so operations or therapies for simple stat increases should be possible. There are also the rules on Synthetics especially Organic Devices. It should be possible to build organs and biomods.

The problem is there are no guidelines.

see page 115 - which suggest that during character generation that most stat increases are geneering. since gene work would only effect genetic die that means that only the Genetic Die, the first D roll for humans would be the affected one and that it would result in a recessive gene for children.

 

[robject]

I use the Robot chapter for augments. With the Robot chapter, there is sensory augmentation in addition to limbs. However, I could also use SophontMaker + the Androids chapter for augments.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I second Lord Eaglestone.

I use the Robot chapter for augments. With the Robot chapter, there is sensory augmentation in addition to limbs. However, I could also use SophontMaker + the Androids chapter for augments.

That works for me! More of that crunchy T5 Toolkit coming to light, it reminds me of David Brin's Uplift Universe and it great cliche "All answers are in the Great Library. You just have to know where to look.". This is a good thing, a good suggestion.

 

[Reban]

see page 115 - which suggest that during character generation that most stat increases are geneering. since gene work would only effect genetic die that means that only the Genetic Die, the first D roll for humans would be the affected one and that it would result in a recessive gene for children.

Yeah but what about the Traveller that saves up his loot to attend the most prestigious genetic clinic in the Imperium for a six week course of augmentations, or in other words is there any guidance on doing this in play or as part of a campaign.

I'm not thinking about the simple stat increase, but cost difficulty and chance of a medical mishap.

 

[Ackehece]

Yeah but what about the Traveller that saves up his loot to attend the most prestigious genetic clinic in the Imperium for a six week course of augmentations, or in other words is there any guidance on doing this in play or as part of a campaign.

I'm not thinking about the simple stat increase, but cost difficulty and chance of a medical mishap.

Using the toolkits provided in T5 gives us the idea of the following::


We can look to the medic skill and the rating required to be a Doctor. So medic-4. ( university MD)

The C+(S+K) for K I would suspect biology related to sophont race

Average < C4+(Medic+Biology)
for stat increases up to normal BaseD (2D in humans) as the rules make this plain that is is fairly common
Difficult < C4+(Medic+Biology)
for stat Increases past BaseD as it is not a standard everyday procedure and it does tend to make ubermensch
Formidable <C4+(Medic+Biology)
for stat increases past 1D+BaseD to a max of 2D+BaseD
*for more D after add one increase in difficulty per stage

for a failed roll I would suggest subtracting 1 from the stat per point it failed the roll by.

We can discuss whether or not this has a social cost
should there be a lifetime limit? - if you keep adding you hit higher and higher difficulty until you start failing

We can assume a standard stage for average results (TL14) and ultimate stage surgery for best result (TL18)- if you can add 1 point to your stat per tech level up to 5(0+1 standard 1+1 improved 2+1 modified 3+1 advanced 4+1 ultimate)
I would say that we should allow FLUX to this total. This simulates a chance at a medical mishap that reduces with medical tech level.
so max range would be 5+-5 (so 0 to 10!) at TL18, 1+-5 (6 to -4) at TL14 :: that minus 4 should be a little bit worrisome

Next - we have a place in the BBB that grants costs for stat increases - that would be the robots chapter - I think we can assume costs should be similar for similar functions.

* Lets start with C4
C4*10Kcr is the cost for int in bots
I think that we can grant the natural BaseD(2D in humans) as a freebie
but each additional the surgery adds should be calculated at one point per 10Kcr

* increased senses
as per pg566
Microscopic/Telescopic visions 40KCr each per point of ability... these would require not just rewriting but total redesign of the optic system in organic sophonts

*C1 C2
10KCr per point over base
this might require reinforcing the skeleton (if C1 or C2 >1D+BaseD) at a further 10KCr to be able to handle the increase strain - want both dex and str then double reinforce so you don't torque yourself

 

[robject]

Yeah but what about the Traveller that saves up his loot to attend the most prestigious genetic clinic in the Imperium for a six week course of augmentations, or in other words is there any guidance on doing this in play or as part of a campaign.

I'm not thinking about the simple stat increase, but cost difficulty and chance of a medical mishap.

As a referee, I would consider that to be a very nice plot development, handed to me on a platter by the player, and I would knit that wonderfully into a campaign. After all, you need to find the right hospitals, do the right favors to get the right contacts, visit the clinics, make some enemies, discover Secrets Man Was Not Meant To Know, save a minor noble from death, spend some favors, get in some tight spots... I mean this is the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Ackehece]

As a referee, I would consider that to be a very nice plot development, handed to me on a platter by the player, and I would knit that wonderfully into a campaign. After all, you need to find the right hospitals, do the right favors to get the right contacts, visit the clinics, make some enemies, discover Secrets Man Was Not Meant To Know, save a minor noble from death, spend some favors, get in some tight spots... I mean this is the gift that keeps on giving.

so so very true!:rofl::CoW:

 

[Ackehece]

another thought occurred related to geneering::

if the surgery fails there could be significant penalties to the doctor awarded to the patient - the price has this built in

Situation:: if the surgery / geneering fails and the client loses points of stat then the doctor /hospital would be on the hook for paying back the damage -
lose four points of intelligence - you are paid 40,000cr

Implication::

1) which means that hospitals/doctors at lower levels would not risk most of this as the risk would be to high (maybe an underground doc with no performance increase promises and a no money back rule (and brutes with guns to enforce the rule))

2) at TL 18 you might see clinics open up as the risk at that stage drops to near zero for the hospital/doctors.

3) of course this assumes that the top D of your C1 C2 C3 C4 is as valuable as the bottom D of your stat...
so ... c1=12 -> c1=11 is the same type of hurt as c1=1 -> c1=0
a case I consider to be very different... one way you can function, the other reduces you to a very much bad state.
Hospitals can have it rigged so only they owe you what you would have owed them - even in this case *the big corporations make the rules*:devil:

4) surgery / geneering will be longer than expected as all doctors will make this a cautious action (I would argue if not life threating all doctor issues would be done as cautious)

5) AND NEVER EVER allow a doc to work on you if your stat increase will be greater than a formidable task if they are not Medic-5 or greater .... THIS IS HARD can ruin you entire life.....
​

This has been an interesting thought experiment related to augmentation

 

[Ulsyus]

Ackehece, I like your reasoning WRT the costs and skill rolls.

I agree with the difficulties for the skill rolls, but have added a time factor of one month per point of physical stat increase. This doesn't represent the time it takes to do the work, but the time it takes for the PC to fully integrate the increases into their general sense of self and their ability to move and operate. For an increased cost (x2) they can reduce this to one week per point, which represents intensive physiotherapists and kinethesiologists and coaching and all those sorts of people/activities.

It hasn't come up in my campaign, but I was leaning in the direction of also increasing the difficulty and costs further if they attempted to go beyond F for any of C1-3. Superhuman should be superdifficult and superexpensive.

For C4 & C5 I've just modelled at TL15 the neural bioware implant used by the citizens of The Culture in Iain M. Banks' books.

The costs I was running with were on a sliding scale depending on the TL of the clinic where it was being done, and I was basing my model on the Sophontoid costs on p127. At TL13 they were faced with the cost model x10, at TL14 it dropped to x5, and at TL15 to x1. That makes it much cheaper to go in for a bit of bodywork rather than a full C1+C2+C3 upgrade all at once, but then they have to make another booking, go in for further work, and see if their schedules can match this.

I haven't made a decision about any impact this has on their San, but reckon there'd be a threshold beyond which it would be affected. I was also going to involve an additional -Mod to tasks involving Soc if their work went beyond a certain point, but no-one's done it (they're not power-gamers in my group!) so I haven't had to consider it.

 

[Ackehece]

I would strongly discourage you from doing a medical C5 upgrade. This is a stat that can be increased in game play by attending school as it education that is represented. C5 tends to be more of a social role play aspect in play. C5 is most important in the character creation phase as it relates to skill acquisition.
Of course it could be that you have a encyclopedia in their head on a chip which might make it more likely to have the information when they need it. If that is what you mean. Feel free

 

[Ulsyus]

That's what I meant, photographic recall and all that. Much simpler to remember things, wetware processor and all that.

Those things are just enhancements though, and to improve on the basic unit requires time and effort. I was considering putting difficulty mods based on the proportional improvement, ie: it has less impact to increase by 2 the Str of someone who has C1=7 than someone with C1=4.

 

[Ackehece]

That's what I meant, photographic recall and all that. Much simpler to remember things, wetware processor and all that.

Those things are just enhancements though, and to improve on the basic unit requires time and effort. I was considering putting difficulty mods based on the proportional improvement, ie: it has less impact to increase by 2 the Str of someone who has C1=7 than someone with C1=4.

yeah the lower your base stat the more the effect of increasing it by one... for C+S
Just considering C should pricing for stat increases deal with this? first D improvements +200% cost 2nd D 100% cost etc?
I really don't think so as every increase in C also has an impact on S making you much more viable as an increase from C=2 to C=10 is a 400% increase in capability and even the increase from c=9 to c=10 is an 11% increase
(with the consideration that if your S level (#Dice) < (target #D) then this is hard kicks in...even if the stats are improved so they don't totally rule. )

 

[Ulsyus]

Hmm. One year of practice and study to improve a skill one level, or purchasing a skill wafer to jack in (if you can get it) or increase the stat to replace a few levels of either? That doesn't take into account the This Is Hard element, which means that a C increase has limitations vs a S increase. Should the cost of geneering be somewhere discouraging and unreasonable for PCs?

 

[Epee]

To "implant" a skill would require introducing artificial experience (memories) which a Referee can simply say, "is beyond known technology", and give some fuzzy excuse about non-experienced memories being processed in the brain more like addendum to a manual which requires mental "indexing" rather than an emotional reaction to a personal experience.

To game the situation I'd allow, under unusual or exceptional situations a character to have "implanted" knowledge to the effect of having a tech manual or encyclopedia in their head regarding a limited subject. For each level of "implant" they would, on a task check, perform one level lower than someone who has received real time training and perform the task more slowly. Perhaps the skill could be raised or fully realized more quickly as the process of memorization is side-stepped. However, a clever ref could easily play this as, "a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing", as the character will initially feel overwhelmed by the volume of new knowledge and yet have no real-world experience in the subject. Those of us with teenage offspring should be well aware of the phenomena.

 

[Ackehece]

Hmm. One year of practice and study to improve a skill one level, or purchasing a skill wafer to jack in (if you can get it) or increase the stat to replace a few levels of either? That doesn't take into account the This Is Hard element, which means that a C increase has limitations vs a S increase. Should the cost of geneering be somewhere discouraging and unreasonable for PCs?

Well... look at it this way - as a talented crew member of a starship you should make around 3000 to 4000credits a month. (as per the benchmarks chapter) That means your players should cap out around 48000cr a year... the average cost to increase a stat is about 1/5 of your years wages... and

It is fine to put a multiplier on the costs - maybe as much as 4x that would bring it into line with the idea that a year grants you an increase of 1 to a stat if worked on. A month convalescence per point increase be also a potential drawback.
Also we should consider a +FLUX roll for max number of post career surgery/geneering stat increases - this would also tend to limit overgrowth

Geneering/Surgery would not be inheritable (it would be recessive) according to the rules in the BBB

 

[Ulsyus]

The +Flux is a good idea, but could that be an absolute maximum, or as far as they can go before increases impact on other things like their Soc or San?

I agree that augmentation geneering shouldn't be inheritable. How to improve humaniti (not really transhumanist) such as the Sword Worlders (if you prescribe to the MgT write-up of them) build up their inheritable physical profile? Is that just writeup fluff, or do permanent inheritable traits require modification of embryos?

What would the cost be for inheritable traits, or would that imbalance things too much? I can see here a class of transhumanists who started as the scions of the wealthy nobility and corporate execs.

Is geneering augmentation the only way to increase C1-3? Was there a system in CT or MT that allowed for stat increases?

 

[Ackehece]

The +Flux is a good idea, but could that be an absolute maximum, or as far as they can go before increases impact on other things like their Soc or San?

I agree that augmentation geneering shouldn't be inheritable. How to improve humaniti (not really transhumanist) such as the Sword Worlders (if you prescribe to the MgT write-up of them) build up their inheritable physical profile? Is that just writeup fluff, or do permanent inheritable traits require modification of embryos?

What would the cost be for inheritable traits, or would that imbalance things too much? I can see here a class of transhumanists who started as the scions of the wealthy nobility and corporate execs.

Is geneering augmentation the only way to increase C1-3? Was there a system in CT or MT that allowed for stat increases?

I would think the flux should be absolute maximum and the soc / san penalties kick in much earlier....

c1-c4 not just c1-c3


Physical workout - I would allow a stat increase if you want to be
Mr/Ms/Whatever Universe that can be your life goal (no other skill reward
for this time period)... get a +1 to whatever you worked on as the primary
goal for a year! (pg 111 Experience)

pg 115
"GENEERING
Genes can be edited using a variety of medical techniques.
Gene editing (Geneering) is one rationale behind
Acquired Characteristic Increases in Character Generation.
For a variety of reasons (including game balance), edited
genes are Recessive.
Character generation increases in characteristics
which meet this criterion: an individual who receives genetic
change in C1, C2, C3, C4, or Instinct has that Gene marked
Recessive. That does not prevent such a Recessive from
later becoming Standard or even Dominant through various
mutations.


pg115
"MUTATIONS
Genes can change due to mutations. Mutations can
make Genes Dominant or Recessive, or increase or decrease
their values.
Roll on the Mutations Table during UPP creation for
each possible Gene. Thus, mutation may convert a parent’s
Gene from an existing Recessive to Standard and make it
available for contribution (although it may not ultimately be
selected).
Dominant applied to a Recessive makes it Standard.
Recessive applied to a Dominant makes it Standard.
A Gene can be reduced to zero and represents a defective
Gene or genetically transmitted disease.
Genes can be increased above 6."


that said