PDF

[RobertFisher]

I love the idea of T5 using the LBB size.

But, I also think it'd be cool if the T5 rules were available in PDF as well as printed. If that were the case, I'd prefer that a copy I print from PDF be as similar to the preprinted copy. So, letter size would be preferable.

Anyway, just a thought...

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Robert FISHER

 

[lucasdigital]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobertFisher:
I love the idea of T5 using the LBB size.

But, I also think it'd be cool if the T5 rules were available in PDF as well as printed. If that were the case, I'd prefer that a copy I print from PDF be as similar to the preprinted copy. So, letter size would be preferable.

Anyway, just a thought...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Count me in Robert.

Unlike some people here you seem to have grasped that we are living in the 21st Century now.

A PDF version would be excellent, it would also allow for negligable production costs.

However nothing beats the real thing so this would be strictly an offshoot. There is also the problem of piracy. Five minutes after MWM sells his first copy of digital media T5 it will be available illegally for free from Usenet binary newsgroups.

Steven King tried to champion the e-format and got completely ripped off in this manner.




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Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com

 

[Crimson Cat]

I do not think sn entire pdf format would work because it is way to easy to steal and put the company out of business. But to do something like LUG did with Star Trek would not be bad. Maps,charts ,character sheets, ect would be ideal info to have in pdf format.

 

[Gallowglass]

Takle a look at www.glorantha.com from where you can download an Acrobat version of the Rules Synopsis for Hero Wars and where theFirst Three Chapters of the Players book are posted up as a web page. My Hero Wars group all use the Synopsis as a quick reference during games, but it hasn't harmed the sales of the rule books...

 

[RobertFisher]

I don't really think piracy would be a problem. People willing to pay will pay in either case. People who aren't willing to pay
will pirate (in one case) or go without (in the other case). In either case, Marc makes the same amount of money.


This is something copy protection advocates have never understood. I bet there were people making the same mistake when Gutenberg invented the printing press.

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Robert FISHER

[This message has been edited by RobertFisher (edited 08 June 2001).]

 

[aramis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobertFisher:
I don't really think piracy would be a problem. People willing to pay will pay in either case. People who aren't willing to pay
will pirate (in one case) or go without (in the other case). In either case, Marc makes the same amount of money.


This is something copy protection advocates have never understood. I bet there were people making the same mistake when Gutenberg invented the printing press.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People have been pirating Traveller since at least 1984... My GM had no copies of the rules, but went into the FLGS, looked at the rules, put them down, walked out of the store, and copied each and every table down. Whe I got a copy of the rules, we compared to his... the combat tables were spot on. The CG tables had been modified. His piracy got myself and two others to actually buy the system.

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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

 

[lucasdigital]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
People have been pirating Traveller since at least 1984... My GM had no copies of the rules, but went into the FLGS, looked at the rules, put them down, walked out of the store, and copied each and every table down. Whe I got a copy of the rules, we compared to his... the combat tables were spot on. The CG tables had been modified. His piracy got myself and two others to actually buy the system.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I had a similar experience.

I bought all the rules,slavishly saving my pocket money. The people I introduced to Traveller borrowed my rulebooks and photocopied them with the library photocopier.

I was young and foolish, but they were more so. They spent a fair amount of money making the copies which de-stapled and became unusable within about 3 weeks. 17 years on and I still have most of by LBB's in good condition.

Its would be foolish to think that free availability of something on the Net wouldn't effect sales, It maybe wouldn't damage the market fatally but its effect would be noticable.




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Mark Lucas
Lucas-digital.com

 

[Gaming Glen]

A synopsis of rules and/or lists of skills/abilities/equipment and their costs (XP or game money) would be useful. Here at work (shhhh) I have a listing and very brief descriptions of Champions material that came with the GM screen, this is very useful for refreshing my memory on the game as I come up with character ideas in my spare time or breaks. I have to refer back to the actual rulebook when I get home for descriptions that I don't recall. It's also easier to hide among the papers at my desk than the bright blue book

. But something like that would be useful while on the road (travelling

).

Here's a second vote for charts, maps, character sheets, and worksheets being very useful in software printable form. They would look so much better with data typed than written for a futuristic game, so include a Traveller font or two.

 

[Takei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gaming Glen:
A synopsis of rules and/or lists of skills/abilities/equipment and their costs (XP or game money) would be useful.
<snip>
Here's a second vote for charts, maps, character sheets, and worksheets being very useful in software printable form. They would look so much better with data typed than written for a futuristic game, so include a Traveller font or two.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For CT I use the Charts and Tables booklet that came as part of Starter Edition. A 25 page booklet that contains all the charts and tables strangely enough! The 56 page Rules Booklet is just text and artwork. A great idea that lets you travel light. For GT I just have a copy of GURPS:Lite, and T4 the refs screen.
I don't like luggin loads of books around as all of my gaming is now done on trips. The idea of electronic editions is especially appealing!

Paul Bendall

 

[RobertFisher]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lucasdigital:
Its would be foolish to think that free availability of something on the Net wouldn't effect sales, It maybe wouldn't damage the market fatally but its effect would be noticable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd love to see some empirical data collected on this subject, but it is hard to do controlled experiments in economics.

I'd love to see the sales figures for Shakespeare's plays and King James Bibles for the past 50 years. Has the Internet had an affect on their sales?

But, really, that's not the point at hand. I'm (at least) not talking about FFE posting something for free. (Although, I wouldn't be oppossed to T5Lite or supplemental material being available for free over the net.) I'm talking about making the whole of T5 available in electronic format for a fee.

So, a better example would be the old TSR stuff that WotC has been selling in PDF format. Yes, it is all available for free on the Internet. (But, since that is piracy, it isn't easy to find.) Is that having an effect on sales? Like I said before, to know that, you'd need a controlled experiment, and that's hard to do right in this case. But I'll stick by my assertion that those people who are pirating that material wouldn't have paid for it even if they couldn't pirate it.

If I was a betting man, I'd be willing to bet that a some of those properties Wizards is now selling in PDF format are bringing in more profits than they ever did in print, piracy or no.

Of course, I agree that it is unlikely that having something available for free on the Internet (pirated or not) might have an affect on sales, but I cannot be certain the effect would be "noticable". (Especially since I have no idea of how you'd measure it in the first place.)

And, as one anecdote in this thread showed, if we could somehow empirically measure the effect of piracy on sales, we might find that the effect was to increase sales.

It would be foolish, however, to think (like the big publishing companies seem to) that piracy of an electronic format would hurt sales so much that the electronic format should be avoided altogether. Especially since it is so cheap and easy to scan and OCR the print version, that you're going to be the victim of electronic piracy anyway...



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Robert FISHER

 

[kafka47]

PDF is a format that would be better for an online magazine.

Other than SJG is there another online Magazine. I am still waiting for Security Leak to return with #6 which promises to be good.

 

[RobertFisher]

Here's an interesting article on this topic.
http://www.baen.com/library/palaver6.htm

For the life of me, rereading this, I can't understand why I suggested PDF. Maybe because, if you're creating a print book, creating a PDF is easier than redoing everything properly to take advantage of a non-print-oriented format.

 

[T. Foster]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobertFisher:
Here's an interesting article on this topic.
http://www.baen.com/library/palaver6.htm

For the life of me, rereading this, I can't understand why I suggested PDF. Maybe because, if you're creating a print book, creating a PDF is easier than redoing everything properly to take advantage of a non-print-oriented format.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Taking the linked article at face value, perhaps it would serve FFE's interest to make the 1983 Starter Traveller set available as a free download. This set is long oop and not scheduled for reprint, so FFE couldn't possibly be losing any sales of it. The only possibly-affected products would be FFE001: The Classic Books and FFE012: The Traveller Book and Adventure, and since ~half the page count of both of those is material not in Starter Traveller, I doubt their sales would drop appreciably (and, in fact, would more likely increase as more people are exposed to the Traveller system and setting through the free 'test drive').

Think Marc/Avery would go for it?

 

[Takei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
Taking the linked article at face value, perhaps it would serve FFE's interest to make the 1983 Starter Traveller set available as a free download.
<snip>
I doubt their sales would drop appreciably (and, in fact, would more likely increase as more people are exposed to the Traveller system and setting through the free 'test drive').

Think Marc/Avery would go for it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice idea. I'm sure most people that liked it would end up buying FFE 001. They might feel a bit ripped off if they bought FFE 012 and found the rules to be the same, but as you say, the Traveller Book has a lot of extra stuff as well.

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Paul

 

[T. Foster]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Takei:
Nice idea. I'm sure most people that liked it would end up buying FFE 001. They might feel a bit ripped off if they bought FFE 012 and found the rules to be the same, but as you say, the Traveller Book has a lot of extra stuff as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah TTB and Starter Traveller are mostly overlap, but the book (which I notice from the FFE site is actually FFE010) will also contain The Traveller Adventure, which alone should make it worth buying. And if, as I'm hoping, they release it as a hardback, that might also add some extra appeal.

 

[Takei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T. Foster:
Yeah TTB and Starter Traveller are mostly overlap, but the book (which I notice from the FFE site is actually FFE010) will also contain The Traveller Adventure, which alone should make it worth buying. And if, as I'm hoping, they release it as a hardback, that might also add some extra appeal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A hardback would be nice, although I have a feeling it won't happen. Glad I've already got mine

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Paul

 

[Ron]

It is very hard to read a 300 pages long novel in a computer screen or worst in a Palm. I know a few people that do that, but, even so, they would rather prefer the printed version. However, games are usually small enough to be printed at home, at least those parts that are actually used again and again. Also, unlike novels, which are sold to individuals, roleplaying games are sold to groups. The publisher always hope to sell more than a single copy to each group. However, pdfs are so easily shared among the group that multiple sales in most groups would decrease.

I really believe, although I have no hard data, that making Traveller fully available as PDF files may hurt a small publisher such as FFE. This doesn't means that there are no place for pdf files in the game publishing business. I am sure that issuing a limited set of the rules in pdf could generate more proffits to the main book selling. However, FFE does need to have a brand new product prior to engage should marketing strategies. I would love to see a limited version of T5 freely available and I am sure that this could help the book sales.

I am not sure of what would be the impact of a free pdf in Classic Traveller's reprints (CTR). It is perhaps a good idea, as many CTR buyers are, in fact, old timers filling gaps in their collections. However, I would advise some rewrite and layout changes to create a new product, as it would create more interrest to the completionists.

 

[RobertFisher]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:
It is very hard to read a 300 pages long novel in a computer screen or worst in a Palm. I know a few people that do that, but, even so, they would rather prefer the printed version.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really?

I've read at least one 272 page novel on my computer. Didn't find it hard at all. Just a bit inconvenient, since I usually like to read fiction away from my desk.

I've read at least one 734 page novel on my Rocket eBook. Not hard in the least. In fact, I find it easier than reading paper books. Both myself and my wife have read lots of books on the eBook. I have a couple of minor complaints with it, but overall, I've come to prefer it to paper books. (Before I owned one, I thought the Rocket eBook was the silliest product for anyone to waste time developing.)

I've read at least one 317 page novel on my Palm. Again, not hard at all. The Palm certainly has some disadvantages vs. the eBook. The Palm does have the advantage of always being with me and having additional functionality, though.

It is true, however, that Baen's product and Far Future's products are different. Still, I'll take Baen's experience with e-books as more valid than everyone else's opinions about e-books.

Besides, I don't think Far Future should try to emulate Baen. I just think that they should: (1) Have fast-play/light rules for T5 available for free. (And/or Starter Traveller) (2) Make electronic versions the full T5 system available to people who buy the paper copy.

 

[Ron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RobertFisher:
Really?

I've read at least one 272 page novel on my computer. Didn't find it hard at all. Just a bit inconvenient, since I usually like to read fiction away from my desk.

I've read at least one 734 page novel on my Rocket eBook. Not hard in the least. In fact, I find it easier than reading paper books. Both myself and my wife have read lots of books on the eBook. I have a couple of minor complaints with it, but overall, I've come to prefer it to paper books. (Before I owned one, I thought the Rocket eBook was the silliest product for anyone to waste time developing.)

I've read at least one 317 page novel on my Palm. Again, not hard at all. The Palm certainly has some disadvantages vs. the eBook. The Palm does have the advantage of always being with me and having additional functionality, though.

It is true, however, that Baen's product and Far Future's products are different. Still, I'll take Baen's experience with e-books as more valid than everyone else's opinions about e-books.

Besides, I don't think Far Future should try to emulate Baen. I just think that they should: (1) Have fast-play/light rules for T5 available for free. (And/or Starter Traveller) (2) Make electronic versions the full T5 system available to people who buy the paper copy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad it worked to you Robert. However, I don't think that your experience is common to most users. I am professor and, as such, I have to read a great amount of pages in my work. I do have a large pdf library of papers in my computer and I already read a few of them. However, whatnever I really need them, usually to do my own stuff, I print them, as it makes easier to get the information I need. Most people in the academia I know do something similar.

I know that leisure books work diferent from technical papers. However, it is not comfortable to carry my laptop to the bathroom or to the bed. I borrowed a Palm from a friend to try reading books in the subway, but I found it uncomfortable. I have no idea of what the market think about this, but I guess it is controversial at least.

Concerning T5's pdfs, I agree with your first suggestion, but not the second. I think that many groups would print copies of the game reducing the chance of selling multiples copies of the book to that group.



[This message has been edited by Ron (edited 22 April 2002).]

 

[RobertFisher]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron:
However, I don't think that your experience is common to most users.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I won't claim that my experience is common to most users, but I don't think yours is either.

It seems pretty obvious to me, however, that if there weren't a lot of people (NB: I didn't say "most") who enjoy having fiction in electronic form, then the Gutenberg project, Memoware, the Rocket-Library (before they shut it down), etc. wouldn't contain so much of it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think that many groups would print copies of the game reducing the chance of selling multiples copies of the book to that group.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many people do you know who play D&D3e, but just printed out the d20 SRD instead of buying the books? Would they have bought the books if the SRD wasn't available? How many people do you know who photocopied a RPG book bought by someone else and played that game for a significant amount of time without buying their own copy? Would they have bought the books if they couldn't get a photocopy?

(My own answers to those questions are: zero, n/a, one, and no.)

Can you offer even anecdotal evidence to support your opinion?

There's an anecdote in this thread that shows that a group printing multiple copies of the rules could actually increase the chance of making multiple sales to that group.

(BTW, I apologize if my belaboring this topic annoys anyone. I can't help myself. I'm just passionate about electronic media. I think it's a topic that needs lots of discussion.)