PC's in combat.

[Maspy]

This question popped in my head during a role playing session. I'm incharge of the Ship's Troops on the Ursula. Through the adventure the numbers have been falling, so I'm looking to strngthen their numbers with other members of the crew. One potential has extensive skills with weapons. I asked him about his combat experience, he answered, "None." I decided to pass on him.
Mechanically speaking, he could have a high BAB, this means he'd fair well in a fire fight. But, how do you take in to account the fact he's never been in one?
Being a marksmen, hitting the g-spot (I mean 10 ring) is one thing, but what about when they're shooting back.
In twilight 2000, they had a nice mechanic called Coolness Under Fire.
This doesn't seem to be strictly for T20 but, in a firefight, how do you differentiate between a Foppish noble who spent his time at the range with Daddy's rifle and a grunt with a couple of combat ribbons?

 

[Reginald]

Roleplay?

The foppish noble may have been good with a rifle, but how is he with melee combat? What other martial/military training does he have? I assume that a grunt are trained in both firearms and close-quarter combat better than the noble. I also assume that said noble would have little or no experience in the service class or you would have described said noble as having an appearance of disciplined officer.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

Foppish?

My my! Such contempt for the peerage, without whom there would be no "Grunts", what? Almost every noble has at least some basic knowledge of swordplay... and I seem to a remember a time when the magnum was very in vogue with the Moot as well... Personally, I prefer the laser carbine, as you don't need to worry about carrying all those bullets, What?

Perhaps the best way to tell between the Grunt and the Noble would be by smell... (laughs) That and the Noble would have a clear idea who "Daddy" is... (bows)

 

[clementk]

Originally posted by Maspy:

This doesn't seem to be strictly for T20 but, in a firefight, how do you differentiate between a Foppish noble who spent his time at the range with Daddy's rifle and a grunt with a couple of combat ribbons?

Off the top of my head:
Low WILL (he breaks at the first sign of real fighting or shots at too long a range/too early) perhaps or a tendency to go for a aimed shot in a rough and tumble firefight. He goes to aim, trys to take his time, and gets shot at or attacked in close combat. Poor or no tactics or at the least no improvisation.

Casey

 

[Maspy]

Originally posted by Reginald:
Roleplay?

The foppish noble may have been good with a rifle, but how is he with melee combat? What other martial/military training does he have? I assume that a grunt are trained in both firearms and close-quarter combat better than the noble. I also assume that said noble would have little or no experience in the service class or you would have described said noble as having an appearance of disciplined officer.

Roleplaying a firefight doesn't seem all that possible. Who here has been in one? Who can know what goes through your head? RPG Firefights basically break down to moving for position, grabing cover, and slinging lead till you run out. How often have you heard a character say, "I cower for this turn behing the crate trying to steady my nerves."

The fight seems to usualy break down to applicable skills, feats, and combat modifiers. You can create a character that has no combat experience but acquired martial training. He may take Karate classes and go to the range all the time. It just doesn't seem right that he can fight beside a blooded vet with no difference, given similar skills and DM's.

 

[Maspy]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Foppish?

My my! Such contempt for the peerage, without whom there would be no "Grunts", what? Almost every noble has at least some basic knowledge of swordplay... and I seem to a remember a time when the magnum was very in vogue with the Moot as well... Personally, I prefer the laser carbine, as you don't need to worry about carrying all those bullets, What?

Perhaps the best way to tell between the Grunt and the Noble would be by smell... (laughs) That and the Noble would have a clear idea who "Daddy" is... (bows)

Ah, the paranoid logicof the supposed "higher class". Dear Baron, my statement was directed at a particular type of noble (we all know those exist). Your assumption that I meant ALL nobles are foppish seems to reveal some misgivings about your views toward yourself, hey?

And also, do not forget, it is the existance of said grunts that provides for the safety of the peerage. There are many inferior cultures that do not believe in the sanctity of the noble class and would like to turn them all into so much foul smelling sausage.

Back to the issue at hand. A Noble trained in swordplay is all well and good. Trianing in tournaments with maskes and those funny white coats can make one skilled, but what happens when a marauding corsair turns to you with the inards of your best friend dangling from his well used cutlass. What's to keep one from cutting and running or atleast from having incredible fear affecting his skill?

When you draw that chromed-out show piece of a magnum, ducked down behind a barrier, with bullets flying over your head, what's to say you don't keep your mellon down for fear of catching some lead? Blowing holes in small aquatic birds or paper targets is one thing. But when your shooting a another living being AND that other being is shooting back, people, yes even the noble born, will act much differently.

And also, doesn't the 50 lbs battery pack for the laser carbine counter act the benefit of carrying around all those bullets?

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Perhaps the best way to tell between the Grunt and the Noble would be by smell... (laughs) That and the Noble would have a clear idea who "Daddy" is... (bows)

Off course he has a clear idea who's "Daddy".

... It's Mommy's Twice Removed Cousin

 

[CarlP]

Originally posted by Maspy:

How often have you heard a character say, "I cower for this turn behing the crate trying to steady my nerves."

As a matter of fact... this reminds me of a role-playing situation I was in once, many years ago. My character had been thrust from his nice, comfortable, civilized job as a guard of a high-tech city, and sent off into the wilderness. He had his nice fancy equipment, but he wasn't used to dealing with all these messy situations. So, when he got into a firefight, he was just overwhelmed. When it got to be my turn, the referee asked me what I was going to do. I considered for a moment, then I told him:

"Whimper. Whimper. Cringe cringe cringe."

Well, it seemed like the thing to do at the time!

 

[Reginald]

I still got to say roleplay.

Personally, I don't like to apply some rule mechanics to make sure you stay in-character. A player should have as much freedom to decide what course of action his PC will take in the story.

Sometimes even the most foppish nobles turn brave while the most-trained soldier who may or may not have been in real combat before flee at the scene of the melee.

 

[Liam Devlin]

There is the point wherein the skills do not equate to roleplaying, and roleplaying can sometimes exceed skills.
Its not always as easy, "If I know it, My character does," as we often times play characters that have no resemblance to ourselves, our abilities, or skills (experiences).

In the instance referenced by Maspy above, one can adjust toi the situation easily, with role playing. CarlP's example is perfect-here's a PC who IS not comfortable in the wilderness
(having a tough time adjusting to it suddenly thrust on an advneture, flies, heat/cold, all his creature comforts gone, and someone starts trying to kill him. No wonder CarlP's reaction was what it was..accurately played out, too I might add. Kudos, stars for you!!!), and deals with it as his PC would.

Does Noble rank equate to combat service experience? No. On the flip side to be fair, one can be ignorant, and brave/ foolhardy. And get lucky, as well.
Should there be a Panic check?" In AdnD2e its called a morale check, IIRC, used for NPC troops, and leaders have a "command presence"
CT/MT/TNE rated troops in green/ trained/ veteran/ elite and even creature encounters had die mods for fight; flee; or cower/hide/etc.

Modifiers to be used should be under the leadership skill, IMNSHO, and the person's PC's charisma.

Adding bennies:
+1 per action served under this leader where outcome was successful*
-1 per action that was unsuccessful*
-1 per Personnel Killed/downed.*
-2 per leader downed/ killed*
+1 per personnel attended to by a medic (and ye wonder why we have so many guys with that skill aboard Ursula, eh? heck even the Skipper can do Trauma diagnosis)

These effects are cumulative.
Any other ideas, not too crunchy to bog down play? The forum is open.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

(meant in good natured ribbing)

Perhaps, Lord Maspy, on the provincial backwater that spawned you a Laser power pack weighs 50 pounds, but to those of us that don't get calloused knuckles from walking, the device in question weighs a mere 3kg, what?

PS: Good to hear from you again!

And on to the Topic in question...

Doesn't this set the game up to favor military characters in hypothetical firefights? This is Traveller, after all, and not Warhammer 40k.
It is hard to gague the "reality" of it, as no one has fired a FGMP at me (yet). I understand that soldiers are more tempered to full blown battles than the average space pedestrian, but such a rule just sounds too hairsplitty... but alas, the rules are a framework, what?

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
And on to the Topic in question...

Doesn't this set the game up to favor military characters in hypothetical firefights? This is Traveller, after all, and not Warhammer 40k.
It is hard to gague the "reality" of it, as no one has fired a FGMP at me (yet). I understand that soldiers are more tempered to full blown battles than the average space pedestrian, but such a rule just sounds too hairsplitty... but alas, the rules are a framework, what?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
yes, the rules are a frame work, and where the rules do not cover such thinmgs, a GM must improvise-and do so in a consistent manner. There are those who like an all miliatary campaign, there are those that roll-play wargame style with Striker/ Fleet type versions.
Then there are those who mix the pot with a wee bit of everything, just as life is full of a wee of everything (more so in URSULA's case cuz we're a Q-ship out LOOKING for trouble).

Even in a non military aspected game, morale can figure in, say, a hostage situation. Will the Baddies listen to the Nobel spouting off his charismatic spiel to lay down? Will they fall for the game effects of the trsutworthy feat?
Or knowing a hangman's rope awaits shoot him full of holes?

Will they lose morale, toss away their guns? I believe I watched you demonstrate that several times, in game milord.
THAT is why I responded to this article,.For the non-service oriented campaigns, they will need these ideas less than those that do. Its a matter of choices, milord.
As I said, none of my suggestions, are canon...

 

[aravain]

The first combat a Noble sees may be the standard he must forever live up to or the disgrace that he may never live down. I would not give any negative modifiers to those who face combat for the first time; who knows how one will react when they "face the elephant" for the first time. What I would do, however, is give modifiers for future battles and role-playing moments based on a characters reaction to the first time he faces death. This allows the player to help plot their character's future, while still holding them accountable for their actions. I've seen many a high BAB character with military background cringe and cower when the FGMP or PGMP go off and with good reason.I like the suggestion of adding modifiers after each encounter and adding a stat or two based off of previous battles and the character's reaction to them. Call it "combat experience" or something, set maximum and minimum numbers so that game play is not disrupted, and update every battle that the GM feels is sufficent enough to warrent a change in how a character will react. My fear is that this will get too far out of hand and result in either too much modification in the system or that it will be a crutch for role-playing.
...is that a PGMP I hear coming on line!?

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I concur, Lord Aravain (that's got a nice ring to it, What?) One could assume that that is what the Experience point system is for. I would also assume that if a character has a good amount of Experience from a prior history, including the experience of some form of combat. That is, unless his prior history was spent solving Rubik's Dodecahedron all those years...

Still, a more situational response makes some sense... Someone snapping at you with a snubber is a lot different from being under heavy Z gun barrage, what?

(cheers!)

 

[zensunni]

Originally posted by Maspy:
One potential has extensive skills with weapons. I asked him about his combat experience, he answered, "None." I decided to pass on him.
Mechanically speaking, he could have a high BAB, this means he'd fair well in a fire fight. But, how do you take in to account the fact he's never been in one?

I'm a bit confused. How did he get a "high" (which is, what--five or higher?) BAB without any combat experience?

If he's never taken levels in army, barbarian, marine, or mercenary classes, his BAB should be low compared to a character of equivelant level who's taken levels in said classes. If he has taken levels in these classes, his prior history should include some justification for the increased BAB.

Nobles are likely to have fairly intensive training in personal protection/combat (not just marksman training) that justifies a higher BAB than, say, the academic or merchant (if not, they're probably better off taking levels in academic or professional).

 

[Maspy]

My selection of the Nobel class was only as an example. Any of the non-military classes would do. They obtain higher BAB just by leveling up. Even a non-combat MOS service man. The wiley quatermaster who spent his career in the rear cutting deals and issuing gear. (DO NOT RAP THAT LAST LINE!) After basic training the closest he got to a gun was when he trades a crate of PGMP's for a keg of brandy, 12 tickets to a Zukai Chrystal's concert and a 3 night stay at the Regina Hilton.
He can raise in level and gain a nice chunky BAB. Put him in a fire fight next to a combat vet or even next to a media type who has been in combat and how do you differentiate them.

Yes, it is up to the PC to roleplay this and the GM to reward the good roleplaying. But who knows how a man will react to being shot at.

A PC wants his charcter to be able to scale the wall and save the princess. Just as the PC wants his character to charge the pill box and save his squad. What he wants and what he can do is what gives RPG's flavor.

 

[ljsteele]

If you want some ideas for handling more dramatic/less cinematic reactions to combat, leaf through a copy of GURPS Basic for the Combat Paralysis disadvantage (essentially hesitate until you make a Will roll), and GURPS:High Tech for Buck Fever and a few other combat options.

In reality, danger triggers the flight-or-fight reflex. This has all sorts of nifty effects on your perception (generally narrows it to the immediate threat), motor control (shunts blood to the torso messing up fine motor control), and memory (messes up the neurotransmitters responsible for creating long term memories). On the other hand, you get lots of sudden energy and natural painkillers.

Closest I've been to this was 6 months working on a ambulance. Thing happen fast. You do what you've been trained and drilled to do. If your PC has been trained to stand still in a square stance and shoot at the paper target, then that's what he'll start doing. Diving for cover may or may not kick in right away. Likely you'll empty the weapon's capacity without thinking about it, shooting quickly to wound, not taking lots of time to aim.

 

[Torn]

If your going to use a save to determine vapor lock in PCs, use Fort.

The suppression fire rules already use this, and it will keep the soldiers standing and fighting (better fort than will) and take the book worms out of the fight faster.

Consider Fort to be "guts" for this.

 

[Jame]

I have a character in the appropriate section of the board whom you can convert, just let me know and give him IR goggles, a mesh helmet, a cold light lantern and a laser rifle with power pack.