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OK, I have to know: Reaver's Deep

Daddicus

SOC-13
Can anybody tell me the history around the creation of or the lore of the Reaver's Deep sector?

I've noticed an awful lot of parallels between Firefly and Traveller, and it's long been rumored that Firefly is partially based on a Traveller campaign that Joss Whedon played in. I'm just curious whether there's any connection between the sector and those rumors.
 
Can anybody tell me the history around the creation of or the lore of the Reaver's Deep sector?

I've noticed an awful lot of parallels between Firefly and Traveller, and it's long been rumored that Firefly is partially based on a Traveller campaign that Joss Whedon played in. I'm just curious whether there's any connection between the sector and those rumors.

The question, as I understand, goes back to Joss Whedon stating in an interview that he based Firefly off a 'Major science-fiction role playing game' that he played sometime in the 1980s. He hasn't specified Traveller and probably never will as it could potentially raise issues about intellectual property rights.

It's assumed to be Traveller as (a) that was the only publication in print at the time that would qualify as a 'Major science-fiction game' and (b) Firefly is chock-full of Traveller-isms.

Now the Reavers in Firefly and the Reavers as get mentioned in any OTU canon are rather different critters. In the OTU, Reavers is a generic term for pirates, warlords, minor empires and other riffraff that attacked interstellar commerce during the Long Night. The Sylean Federation/Third Imperium had a series of 'Reaver wars' against various such polities around the Milieu-0 timeframe. The Reavers Deep was named as such as it was the last major region held by powers that would have been classified as Reavers.

Having said that, GDW never produced a significant amount of material set in the region, although there was a bit published by third parties. I suspect that whatever Joss Whedon did in his campaign was largely homebrew.
 
The question, as I understand, goes back to Joss Whedon stating in an interview that he based Firefly off a 'Major science-fiction role playing game' that he played sometime in the 1980s. He hasn't specified Traveller and probably never will as it could potentially raise issues about intellectual property rights.

It's assumed to be Traveller as (a) that was the only publication in print at the time that would qualify as a 'Major science-fiction game' and (b) Firefly is chock-full of Traveller-isms.

Actually, it isn't the only one. He has stated elsewhere that he gamed in his last two years of college. Which would put it 1984-1986. In the UK.

That puts Spacemaster (1E), (Classic) Traveller, Space Opera, Fasa STRPG, Robotech, The Mechanoids, and Star Frontiers all on the market.

Traveller's the most likely; my eessay on the issue over on Scifi.stackexchange.com goes into much detail.
 
Cool! Good info.

Aramis, how can I find your article on that site. The index doesn't seem very complete.

All: I wonder if Marc shouldn't tell him (officially) there won't be any IP issues if Whedon says it. I would think it would be a huge boon to the game if he actually said it. Firefly has legions of followers and Traveller doesn't have so many.
 
Cool! Good info.

Aramis, how can I find your article on that site. The index doesn't seem very complete.

All: I wonder if Marc shouldn't tell him (officially) there won't be any IP issues if Whedon says it. I would think it would be a huge boon to the game if he actually said it. Firefly has legions of followers and Traveller doesn't have so many.

You find stuff mostly by tag, not by title.
http://scifi.stackexchange.com/ques...eries-based-on-joss-whedons-game-of-traveller

Aramis on SciFi.StackExchange.com said:
The facts, few as they are
Joss, in an online interview which is no longer on-line, stated that the Firefly verse started as a campaign of a major Sci-Fi RPG. He's also stated that he quit playing RPG's after college. He refused to identify the system.

Since he graduated in 1986... we're looking at 1982-1986.

On to the logical speculation
The criteria "major" restricts us to games that were in commercial circulation; since his first couple years undergrad were in the UK, that restricts it further

Major Sci-Fi games in print included: GDW's Traveller & 2300, Palladium's Mechanoids trillogy & Robotech, FASA's Star Trek, FGU's Starships and Spacemen and Space Opera, TSR's Star Frontiers, and ICE's SpaceMaster, and SPI's Universe.

If we eliminate the games without slugthrowers, we're left with Traveller, 2300, Universe, Mechanoids, and Robotech.

Universe was not in very wide circulation; SPI went bankrupt in 1982, and the Universe game was one of SPI's last RPG products. My experience is that SPI games didn't have much of an impact in the UK.

2300 was later in the era - summer 1986 - he wouldn't have been playing it during his college career.

Mechanoids lacks ship rules, and is focused on active duty games. Plus, no big bad government. No Mercantile focus, either.

Robotech is very light on the slugthrowers, and lacks a mercantile focus.

2300, Space Opera, and Traveller have world generation rules, but only Traveller and 2300 have system generation rules.

Space Opera has everything but the right weapons.

Also, Traveller and Star Frontiers were available worldwide by 1983... and Traveller was even produced in local editions for the UK.

Which leaves, pretty much...

Traveller or...
something that isn't major, or...
serious houserules from hell.

Notes in support of Traveller
I'll note as well: The Firefly class is very much, feature for feature, comparable to the specifications for the Type R Subsidized Merchant in Traveller, but with a second launch added in place of 20 tons of cargo. Deckplans differ, but still, functionally, very close.

Further, the Verse uses a high speed deep space drive, and an atmosphere capable maneuvering drive. The rest of the tech lines up really well, tho'. You need only redefine jump drive to a sub-C secondary n-space constant speed drive, and you have the ability to play the verse with stock traveller rules. Including the small vs big ship dichotomies.

Further, I've accidentally generated 5 star systems before using Classic Traveller's Book 6: Scouts; it's the only one of the lot that I recall being able to generate stellar clusters of that size; I can't get to Space Master to check.

Traveller is often derided for the "Sixguns and Starships" approach... an approach which Firefly shares.

Classic Traveller adventures often have PC's skirting local laws to do what basically amount to good deeds in the end, and/or to make enough bankroll to keep flying. Plus, the central government is often treated as the enemy in those adventures.

Evidence from the Footage
Several references to "Travelers" in the footage are made. The most memorable being Wash, shouting, "Hang on, Travellers!" during some sharp maneuvers while trying to evade the Dortmunder in the pilot.

I recall that there are at least 2 such comments on film.

Note that the leaked shooting script uses the double L spelling.

Zoe Travellers pick 'em up cheap at government auction. A few modifications and they serve well enough for a one-way push to the outer planets.
Bushwhacked, Act 1
And also in the pilot, another use in the script - but not in the footage:

INT. DINING ROOM - LATER

We see a sparse but none-the-less inviting spread - Book and Kaylee have made a salad of tomatoes, and grilled up some root vegetables along with the pasta and protein/starch mush that is the usual diet of space travellers. To us, not much. To this crowd, a banquet​
.
This could be a Britishism, due to Joss having gone to college in the UK.

Worlds in both.
Regina is a major world in both settings. In CT, it's a subsector capital, and important trade center

Bellerophon is a water world in both settings; See CT Adventure 9: Nomads of the World Ocean.

Ariel (Ley Sector, Ikhnaton subsector, hex 0103) is a significant world in the Judges' Guild produced Ley Sector - on a major route, but not actually core.

Persephone is a low-population world in the Spinward Marches. In Traveller, it's an Imperial Way Station, with a thin but breathable atmosphere, close to earth size.

Conclusion
We can't be certain, but the most likely candidate is Traveller.

A Couple Notes on the "Official" 'Verse
The official verse has at least 5 natural stars, plus 7 human-ignited protostars. At least according to the QMX produced additional materials.

It's worth noting, however, that the additional elements and detailed astrography seem to be later growth after filming.

Oh, and I found the interview in question because I followed a link from a poster who has since deleted all his posts... Grr...
 
That's good enough for me.

And, given both concepts are aging, I like the idea of allowing Joss the freedom to speak plainly about it. It would be basically ret-conned product placement. Marc, do you ever read the forums here?

:)
 
That's good enough for me.

And, given both concepts are aging, I like the idea of allowing Joss the freedom to speak plainly about it. It would be basically ret-conned product placement. Marc, do you ever read the forums here?

:)

The analysis is pretty good. However, the "slugthrower" criteria has some faulty premises. Most importantly, SPACE OPERA is packed full of slugthrowers, including both modern and historical ones. They are described in far more detail than in Traveller, including multiple calibers of shotguns, derringers, revolvers, and even lever-action weapons.

Anecdotally, SPACE OPERA was also reasonably popular in the UK at the time: I was introduced to the game by someone who was playing it in London. For that matter, British game designer David Braben (of the Elite space trading computer game fame) claims he was influenced by Space Opera rather than Traveller which he played in the UK in the early 80s....

UNIVERSE seems somewhat unlikely, though it's worth noting that its distribution was wider than expected: in the last days, a distribution through a major book publisher (Bantam, I think) released a very large print run of a single-volume softcover of UNIVERSE into the book store mass market chain. This saw wide mass-market penetration across multiple countries. The general setting of UNIVERSE is in some ways closer to FIREFLY than 1982-era Traveller, with a loose centralized federation around the core words and loads of independent traders and the like around the fringes... and no aliens.
 
The analysis is pretty good. However, the "slugthrower" criteria has some faulty premises. Most importantly, SPACE OPERA is packed full of slugthrowers, including both modern and historical ones. They are described in far more detail than in Traveller, including multiple calibers of shotguns, derringers, revolvers, and even lever-action weapons.

Anecdotally, SPACE OPERA was also reasonably popular in the UK at the time: I was introduced to the game by someone who was playing it in London. For that matter, British game designer David Braben (of the Elite space trading computer game fame) claims he was influenced by Space Opera rather than Traveller which he played in the UK in the early 80s....

UNIVERSE seems somewhat unlikely, though it's worth noting that its distribution was wider than expected: in the last days, a distribution through a major book publisher (Bantam, I think) released a very large print run of a single-volume softcover of UNIVERSE into the book store mass market chain. This saw wide mass-market penetration across multiple countries. The general setting of UNIVERSE is in some ways closer to FIREFLY than 1982-era Traveller, with a loose centralized federation around the core words and loads of independent traders and the like around the fringes... and no aliens.
the Firefly Alliance is a strong central government federation that claims ALL the worlds, but simply has limited reach and effects on the outer worlds.
 
My favorite sector. Next to Far Frontiers, the Reaver's Deep sector is the perfect adventuring sector, especially with a party that has a J-3 ship.
 
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