off the map

[hirch duckfinder]

shoot me down if this is an old topic but i was wondering if there are any canonical or published references to inhabitants of the space beyond the empires on the standard maps . surely the occaisional diplomat would show his/her/its face ( or equivilent ) ? seems to me this could have a large significance . e.g. were the zho's under no pressure from the other side during the frontier wars ? did this affect the amount of force they could deploy ? who do the solomani have on their ( from imperial perspective ) back door ?

 

[phydaux]

Man. I've GOT to chime in here. After Classic Traveller, Mega Traveller, T:TNE, MM's Trav, GURPS Trav and T20, and over 25 years of published cannon, I can't belive your gaming group has run off the map! Isn't there enough published for you? It's a quarter of the GALAXY, for crying out loud!

I just bought MM's T - Meliu 0, and it has four whole SECTORS done up. A lot of people hate GT:BTC but it's my bible for the Spinward Marches.

And if you're getting grief from your players, try this:

"Well, if your characters REALLY want to know what's there, you can always try GOING there. It will take your ship about SIX YEARS game time to get there. What do your characters do the FIRST day?"

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I Referee (yes were taking back the word, you Gamemasters!) a Campaign in the Hinterworlds sector that could go off the map any day now... anything is possible... I need new aliens, small timers, and there just aint enough canon to go around in that part o space...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I Referee (yes were taking back the word, you Gamemasters!) a Campaign in the Hinterworlds sector that could go off the map any day now...

It's only a J-2 ship! Have you got a big misjump planned?

 

[Gallowglass]

Check out Carlos Alós-Ferrer's Beyond The Extents (http://members.lycos.co.uk/caf/bte/bte.html). Well 'off-map' and a really appealing setting IMO...

cheers,

Nick Middleton

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by phydaux:
Man. I've GOT to chime in here. After Classic Traveller, Mega Traveller, T:TNE, MM's Trav, GURPS Trav and T20, and over 25 years of published cannon, I can't belive your gaming group has run off the map! Isn't there enough published for you? It's a quarter of the GALAXY, for crying out loud!

Charted Space is 320 parsecs long in the coreward-rimward direction, and 512 parsecs wide in the spinward-trailing direction.

The galaxy on the other hand is a disc about 30,000 parsecs in diameter.

So Charted Space is a very small part of the galaxy actually. Things like the 'great rift' are just gaps within the spiral arm we're in - they're not supposed to be the gaps BETWEEN the spiral arms.

 

[Antony]

who do the solomani have on their ( from imperial perspective ) back door ?

IMTU Banners campaign one of the missions that the Cause Rampant (CF-6412) was tasked with in 1102/1103 was to enter the Canopus and Hanstone sectors, Promote pro imperial feeling and support against the Solomani on worlds likely to be receptive. Particularly the multi-system states of the Trita Brotherhood and Jurisdiction of Nadon in the Canopus sector and the Fteiheiel Oih (Aslan) and the Council of Heads in the Hanstone sector.

Unfortunately something went wrong on the mission and the vessel never reached this sectors. This may have had something to do with the refitted cruiser having a similar model computer fitted to that of the older Kinunirs.

In any case the cruiser as at 1201 is adrift in the Banners sector about to be found by a gallant band of PCs.

 

[hirch duckfinder]

Originally posted by phydaux:
Man. I've GOT to chime in here. After Classic Traveller, Mega Traveller, T:TNE, MM's Trav, GURPS Trav and T20, and over 25 years of published cannon, I can't belive your gaming group has run off the map! Isn't there enough published for you? It's a quarter of the GALAXY, for crying out loud!

I just bought MM's T - Meliu 0, and it has four whole SECTORS done up. A lot of people hate GT:BTC but it's my bible for the Spinward Marches.

And if you're getting grief from your players, try this:

"Well, if your characters REALLY want to know what's there, you can always try GOING there. It will take your ship about SIX YEARS game time to get there. What do your characters do the FIRST day?"

----------------------------

--- you misunderstand me . i am quite happy in the imperium , i don't want to "go there" . however , can you immagine being a military leader and not considering who is on the other side of your enemy ? would the u.s.a. have sent soldiers to fight on the western front in europe in ww2 without knowing the russians were on the other side ? most traveller adventure takes place on the borders ( spinward marches , solomani rim ) as this is where we find interesting tensions , but we don't know what tensions our enemies have from the other direction(s) . it seems to me that to understand the political situation we adventure in , we need to know just a little bit , in general terms about our enemies' situations .

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
--- you misunderstand me . i am quite happy in the imperium , i don't want to "go there" . however , can you immagine being a military leader and not considering who is on the other side of your enemy ? would the u.s.a. have sent soldiers to fight on the western front in europe in ww2 without knowing the russians were on the other side ? most traveller adventure takes place on the borders ( spinward marches , solomani rim ) as this is where we find interesting tensions , but we don't know what tensions our enemies have from the other direction(s) . it seems to me that to understand the political situation we adventure in , we need to know just a little bit , in general terms about our enemies' situations . [/QB]

I guess if there are significant nations causing tension on the other side of the aliens' borders, they'd be important enough to mark on the Charted Space map. The fact that there aren't any implies that such nations don't exist. (though admittedly there is mention of odd things going on to coreward of the Zhodani).

 

[hirch duckfinder]

I guess if there are significant nations causing tension on the other side of the aliens' borders, they'd be important enough to mark on the Charted Space map. The fact that there aren't any implies that such nations don't exist.


------- arrrghhhh . that means it's just the imperium that's surrounded ( toast )


(though admittedly there is mention of odd things going on to coreward of the Zhodani). [/QB][/QUOTE]

---- ah . interesting . don't suppose you know where ?

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
that means it's just the imperium that's surrounded ( toast )

That is essentially correct.

Charted space is just that, all of charted space. There are no known major powers outside charted space in OTU.

There are also very few human states outside charted space.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(though admittedly there is mention of odd things going on to coreward of the Zhodani).

---- ah . interesting . don't suppose you know where ? </font>[/QUOTE]In one of the last DGP products (MTJ4?) they mentioned some of the plot threads they were planning on doing, one of which involved "baddies from the core".

In TNE (specifically the Regency Sourcebook), there was the Empress Wave that ripped the Zhodani Consulate apart. While exactly what the wave was, was never explained, but it was coming from coreward, and something had to have caused it ...

But that is way coreward. The Zhodani touch the Imperium on its trailing/rimward corner, various Vargr states along trailing, and various human states along trailing. Its spinward and coreward borders are wide-open frontiers that the Zhodani effectively ignore. (Outside their core expeditions, of course.)

But your main point that out of the seven main empires (Imperium, Zhodani, Vargr, Aslan, Solomani, K'kree, and Hivers), only the Imperium is completely hemmed in, is completely correct.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by daryen:
But your main point that out of the seven main empires (Imperium, Zhodani, Vargr, Aslan, Solomani, K'kree, and Hivers), only the Imperium is completely hemmed in, is completely correct. [/QB]

Not quite. The spinward frontier, between the Zhos and Aslan is still open. It's not all empty rift there, as the Vanguard Reaches and Beyond sectors testify.

 

[mad13142000]

Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
who do the solomani have on their ( from imperial perspective ) back door ?

This topic was my original impetus for Project Cephus, but that has since changed due to political pressure...
I am in possession of maps for 5 sectors rimward and 6 sectors to either side from Aldebaran Sector. There is a very large rift lying a couple of sectors away from the Sollies that would preclude them from meeting alot of new faces. More disturbing is all those ships that go missing in Amderstun Sector....
As for other races...There are lots. But remembering that Charted Space is a tiny portion of the galaxy, why would a race that has potentially as much or more space than the
Imperium feel the need to travel far to say hi?

Would that even be news for the average Imperial Citizen....
"Oh look honey...On page 235 of the Times, there's a report of an ambassador from the Nesthin. It says they have an Empire spanning over 250 parsecs, but they lie 100 parecs off the lesser rift, and it takes almost a year to reach them from Imperial Space..."

There are over a hundred species in the Hiver Federation alone...But I'm thinking the Zho's have encountered the most, but they aren't telling anyone...State secrets and all that.
Is there more major races (ie large states that have independantly developed jump drive)?? Probably in the galaxy there are. I even believe there are several races that have been around since the Ancients - just as high tech by now as they were then....but without long range expeditions, we'll never know...(and those are expensive...trust me )

-MADDog

 

[mad13142000]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
I guess if there are significant nations causing tension on the other side of the aliens' borders, they'd be important enough to mark on the Charted Space map. The fact that there aren't any implies that such nations don't exist.

Not necessarily...The map is obviously drawn with the focus on the Imperium. That's all and fine from the designers who wrote the game, and placed all the action there in the beginning. As it stands today, all the originally barely mentioned aliens have been totally fleshed out, with large empires of their own. Am I to believe that just because there isn't anything other than Canada and Mexico on my map of the USA, that nothing else exists???
I firmly believe that there is another major race on the other side of the K'kree - why else would they have been so quiet towards the humans, who should have scared them far worse than the Hivers on the carnivore scale...They had ample chance to destroy us after initial contact, during the Long Night, but were obviously occupied elsewhere during that time...
Same with the rest of the galaxy...There HAS to be stuff out there, just because nobody has written it, or published it and it's not canon, doesn't mean that it isn't there...

-MADDog

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Am I to believe that just because there isn't anything other than Canada and Mexico on my map of the USA, that nothing else exists???

Well, before the Americas were discovered Europeans in the middle ages DID think that there was nothing out there to the west.

Originally posted by MADDog:
Same with the rest of the galaxy...There HAS to be stuff out there, just because nobody has written it, or published it and it's not canon, doesn't mean that it isn't there...

Actually, canonically there seems to be a lot of evidence to suggest that there ISN'T anything else out there - at least on the non-Imperial borders of the known alien empires. I presume that maps have been published of the alien empires in various Aliens books in CT's history, surely mention would have been made of external threats there, given their non-imperial focus. But AFAIK, no mention of such things has been made.

Given the big deal made about major races, I'd imagine it'd rock all of Charted Space to know that there's another, totally independent Major Race out there beyond Charted Space. If such a race was known, it'd be on the maps or at least mentioned in the text. So far, nothing's showed up (excluding the Primordials/Sparklers, who were dumped from canon anyway).

That's not to say that anything isn't out there or won't show up in the future, but it seems to me that Charted Space is all there is when it comes to known Major Races for the entire history of the setting.

 

[Spinward Scout]

Here's a good one for you:

The Core Route Projects

Also has info on a Rim Route Project. A great web page.

Still searching,

Scout

 

[jchurchill]

Is there more major races (ie large states that have independantly developed jump drive)?? Probably in the galaxy there are. I even believe there are several races that have been around since the Ancients - just as high tech by now as they were then....but without long range expeditions, we'll never know...(and those are expensive...trust me
------------------------------------------------
That's an excellent point and allows us to build our own empires down the road from the Imperium. My stellar astronomy is a bit rusty since college was a long time ago but there are other galaxies out there so perhaps we should change IMTU to IMTG?

I can't see why I can't have my own set of empires that eventually might meet and interact --even at the fringes -- with the 7 races in the OTG canon...Some players might freak at the propect but then I would reply that the Azrecs and the Incas were a bit thrown when they met Cortez and Pizarro.

There is more in the galaxy then are dreamt of in your philosophies, Horatio....

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
But your main point that out of the seven main empires (Imperium, Zhodani, Vargr, Aslan, Solomani, K'kree, and Hivers), only the Imperium is completely hemmed in, is completely correct.

Not quite. The spinward frontier, between the Zhos and Aslan is still open. It's not all empty rift there, as the Vanguard Reaches and Beyond sectors testify. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Kinda, but not really as that area is chock full of minor powers. The Imperium would have to go through three sectors of not their territory to find that frontier.

Everyone else just has to go to their border.

 

[mike wightman]

You mean the kind of minor powers and pocket empires that the Imperium has a history of swallowing up?

 

[Whipsnade]

Sigg Oddra wrote:

"You mean the kind of minor powers and pocket empires that the Imperium has a history of swallowing up?"


Mr. Oddra,

You mean the kind of minor powers and pocket empires that the Imperium USED TO HAVE a history of swallowing up.

Since the time of the First Frontier War, the Imperium has been losing territory. In the first two Frontier Wars, the Imperium was evicted from it's territories beyond the Marches. In the Third Frontier War, the Imperium lost additional subsectors within the Marches itself. At the time of T20's setting, the Imperium is in the process of losing control of 2/3rds of the Solomani Sphere (although it is debateable whether the Imperium ever actually controlled the Solomani Sphere) and whatever open frontier it still possesses.

An Imperial annexation and conquest drive to spinward of the Marches and Trojan Reach would be viewed with great alarm by the Zhodani and Aslan ihatei. The Consulate in particular has spent centuries carefully crafting a subsector-wide neutral zone between itself and the Imperium. Having the Imperium suddenly appear on their Rimward borders would be a cause for great concern within the Consulate.

When you consider the fact that the Zhodani have been 'pulling their punches' during the Frontier Wars, the specter of a *real* Frontier War kicking off and sweeping up the whole of the Marches along with the Foreven and Deneb sectors is quite frightening.


Sincerely,
Larsen