Off-grid self sufficient housing

[Whipsnade]

The game is to then come up with the processes and resources to be able to continuously feed the Maker.

Bingo! Give the man a cigar!

Whenever we discuss makers, 3D printing, or additive machining everyone always agrees that they're not Santa Claus machines, nearly everyone mentions they'll need specific feed stocks, and then most everyone goes right ahead talking about them as if they actually are Santa Claus machines which can transmute materials at will.

While everyone "knows" the limitations, most don't quite "grok" the limitations. You aren't going to shovel bark, toenails, and fresh air into a maker and get a jump drive.

As most folks know, a lathe is considered a self-replicating tool. In that with a lathe, you can now make other lathes. If you start with a crude lathe, you can make finer and finer lathes.

That ability depends wholly on the correct materials being supplied to the lathe and the correct skills being applied to the operation of the lathe. A maker doesn't need the required skills, but a maker still needs the required materials.

How apt that works with Makers, I don't know.

Not only can we can make an educated guess, we're also told so in T4's Mileau:0 and Pocket Empires plus Agent of the Imperium. A maker can make another maker and a maker can make the power supply it needs. What a maker cannot make is the resources it requires or the programming it needs to make something new.

What kind of refined resources are required to feed Makers, I don't know.

Again, we can make an educated guess. A lathe needs steel, iron, copper, and other metals plus cutting oil and cutting tools to produce anything another lathe. A maker is going to need more varied inputs because it makes more varied items.

A maker makes. It doesn't transmute, refine, purify, mix, meld, alloy, distill, sift, sort, or otherwise produce the resources it needs from the raw materials on hand. If you can't feed your maker what it needs, it is nothing more than what you called it in that nice turn of phrase: A piece of sculpture.

 

[Enoki]

I would think that when it comes to construction, the first choice of materials would be what's available locally. That means if stone is the major material, that's what gets used most.

Take Mars. Stone is obviously available. If you need mortar, using a solar oven to bake limestone, or other carbonates, you can make a quick lime and cement (not to mention getting some off gassing for atmosphere).

Even without mortar, advanced machinery should be able to cut stone to fit tightly together and the import of mortar or cement to seal the stone would be all that's needed.

If it's something like wood, than that gets used. Fine soil can be fired into bricks and used.

Obviously, lack of an atmosphere or one that is not totally acceptable would result in a different construction than a standard atmosphere would. Weather, amount of sunlight, radiation, etc., would all play a determining role too.

The Solomon Island example would be another: Building there would best be accomplished with mostly local materials. Bring in a chain saw or two and a portable sawmill. There is a series on television called Building Alaska or something like that. That's what those guys do. In one set of episodes, the builders created a marginal runway that a small plane could land on using an old jeep dragging an improvised scree. They flew in cement for the foundation and used local sand and gravel with it. They then flew in a small portable sawmill and used chain saws to make all of their lumber. Stone was used where necessary as another building material. This way, all they needed to fly in were their tools and things like nails and other hardware they couldn't make.

I can't see a colony or other low population world doing differently. The cost of importing all the materials would be prohibitive.

My first choices for electrical generation, would be micro-hydro and wind. The former only requires I bring in the turbine and generator (and having a flowing water source). The later requires only the generator if I have building materials available to make the tower and props for it. Once you have a steady source of wind or water, you have reasonably reliable power.
The next best would be, if there is something like wood available, biomass. Use all the waste products from making lumber, etc., as fuel to run a generator. Solar is the first choice only if there's no atmosphere or very little of one.

Another source of material would be shipping containers and dunnage that comes with stuff that's imported. These could be turned into impromptu buildings and used as construction materials in a pinch. I'm pretty sure that a low pop world would have few exports initially. There might be one or two like a raw material that they have an abundance of that's in demand, but for the most part they'd be importing materials not exporting.

I'd also think they'd bring in a few small pieces of machinery to increase the rate of production of materials and buildings. I'd think a small tracked loader, tracked excavator, several tracked dumpers, and a "jeep" drill would be a good combination. You could quickly dig foundations and holes for below ground structures, gather and haul materials, build things like septic systems, and drill wells. That gives you all the basics to build homes and small business buildings in whatever form they might take.
If the atmosphere is unsuitable for work without special gear, these could have enclosed cabs to allow the operator to work all day in comfort rather than with a respirator or suited up. That increases efficiency again.

 

[Whipsnade]

I would think that when it comes to construction, the first choice of materials would be what's available locally.

Bootstrapping is the only way to proceed, even with imports and even with a maker on hand.

When Talon left behind makers on Beauniture, the locals didn't start making cell phones for everyone. They started to make the infrastructure needed to make the infrastructure needed to make the infrastructure needed to start think about making cell phones for everyone.

Makers are going to be a "multiplier". They're going to help you develop and diversify your infrastructure. First by manufacturing simple tools and equipment with require simple inputs from your bare bones infrastructure and then with increasingly more complicated tools and equipment which can be manufactured because more complicated inputs are available.

 

[Enoki]

Bootstrapping is the only way to proceed, even with imports and even with a maker on hand.

When Talon left behind makers on Beauniture, the locals didn't start making cell phones for everyone. They started to make the infrastructure needed to make the infrastructure needed to make the infrastructure needed to start think about making cell phones for everyone.

Makers are going to be a "multiplier". They're going to help you develop and diversify your infrastructure. First by manufacturing simple tools and equipment with require simple inputs from your bare bones infrastructure and then with increasingly more complicated tools and equipment which can be manufactured because more complicated inputs are available.

That's how I see it. You'd bring in basic equipment that doesn't require much in the way of high tech support to avoid it breaking down and an inability to repair or service it locally.

The basics outside construction would be in agriculture: A tractor with plow, harrow, etc., for quickly making fields plantable. Small harvesting machinery, if necessary, and food processing equipment on a small scale. That would reduce manpower massively while providing the necessary food for the colony. I could see bringing in animals for protein with ones that can be let go feral like pigs, assuming there is wild food available for them. This means you can get a self-sustaining population of animals in addition to domesticated ones. Imports of seeds and plants would occur initially, but once you are in production you can sustain these locally.

Then you'd need a basic machine and forging shop that could produce raw materials and finished products. While you might be somewhat dependent on imports of metals and finished metal products, you'd have the ability to make and repair machinery locally on a small scale or single part basis.

You'd probably want to bring in a small bulk processor for sand and gravel along with a way to manufacture cement. This gives you the ability to produce several very critical construction materials in bulk right away.

I'd think TL 4 to 7 would be the starting point with equipment. Nothing high tech (or very little), nothing somebody with basic tools and a bit of training can't fix. That would leave dragging a fusion plant or some high tech computerized maker machine to such a world early on as the danger is if it breaks down you can't fix it leaving you without something critical to success. Better to bring simple, reliable, and easily repaired equipment to get established. Once you have a going, self-sustaining local economy you can begin to upscale to more advanced technology. This is also better from a cost POV.

An interesting exercise might be to try to see what setting up such a colony on some generic UWP would cost in terms of the rules. One way might be to have a set dollar to Imperial credit exchange rate to use with this so someone could select extant equipment and find a cost (assuming it'd be roughly the same in Traveller). Start with say, 100 to 500 people and have a go at putting a initial list of equipment together...

 

[Condottiere]

Provision for black swan event.

 

[whartung]

Provision for black swan event.

Yea, I actually thought of that when discussing the redundant maker/power plants.

I love "Good plans gone bad" when it comes to disaster recovery prevention.

One of my favorites was a company that had redundant, isolated computer systems on two different floors of the building.

Was a great idea, save that the two computer rooms were physically above each other, and an air conditioner dropped through the roof and took them both out. Best laid plans...

As for Makers, I haven't followed the lore. I just have to assume that, like today, Makers are great for "small" runs of parts (for various definitions of "small"). Simply because of resource, power, or time requirements that make mass production more viable if the market calls for it.

For example, here in the US, will there be a time when it's cheaper to manufacture a bunch of, say, alternators for a car, and store them (i.e. put them in warehouses and auto parts stores across the country, which has costs of its own), vs an "Auto" Auto Parts store that can Make the alternator from scratch.

For a Toyota Camry, probably worth stocking the part.

For a 1982 Mustang II? Maybe not.

As a kid, went with my Dad to Sears for some tires. He needed a starter and a battery. I was truly dumbfounded that they had THE starter for my Dads car. 8 zillion cars in the country, and they had JUST THE RIGHT starter! In stock!

I didn't realize that my Dad's car had a pretty common GM V8 350 motor, that the starter actually fit a bunch of different cars. But it was still a pretty amazing magic trick.

Mind, my dealership can't stock a battery for my car...how far have we fallen.

 

[Whipsnade]

As for Makers, I haven't followed the lore. I just have to assume that, like today, Makers are great for "small" runs of parts (for various definitions of "small"). Simply because of resource, power, or time requirements that make mass production more viable if the market calls for it.

Exactly. Adam Smith's pin making example and economies of scale will still hold. Specifically designed machines performing specific tasks are always going to be more efficient and, above certain levels of production, those efficiencies are still worth pursuing.

That's why I always point out that makers will be "protoypers", "multipliers", and bootstrappers". Makers will allow you to produce rather the import small numbers certain devices, parts, and components well before your normal production infrastructure would allow you to do so. The items produced can be used to provide certain capabilities in advance of your overall infrastructure's abilities. The items produced can also be used to "goose" the development of that same infrastructure.

 

[kilemall]

Exactly. Adam Smith's pin making example and economies of scale will still hold. Specifically designed machines performing specific tasks are always going to be more efficient and, above certain levels of production, those efficiencies are still worth pursuing.

That's why I always point out that makers will be "protoypers", "multipliers", and bootstrappers". Makers will allow you to produce rather the import small numbers certain devices, parts, and components well before your normal production infrastructure would allow you to do so. The items produced can be used to provide certain capabilities in advance of your overall infrastructure's abilities. The items produced can also be used to "goose" the development of that same infrastructure.

Which is why the right answer to me in most cases is defining the rules by the economics of roleplay generation, not working backwards from an engineering sim defined by our poor TL8-addled brains.

 

[coliver988]

I am certainly appreciating the discussion from that original post - as always a large number of intriguing and useful bits of information on infrastructure, cargo cults, makers, etc.

Tying in the with retro computer thread in an odd way, perhaps the future version of a self-sufficient house also comes with a maker to create the parts necessary for self-maintenance, a low-level AI with a backup (not immediately underneath the primary system!) to help maintain the system, and a bunch of other multiple redundant systems that, as mentioned, our TL8 minds just don't get. So some things are larger than we think they should be, but have a high level of backups and recovery capabilities.

Riff on Star Trek where the backups have backups (which, if you are out in space, makes a lot of sense)

 

[JimMarn]

My senior year in one of my computer science classes, we discussed backups.

The professor gave us this true story about bad idea for backups.

A company heard about backups, got people to come in and talk to them about such things.

They built their Admin/IT buildings, and made a duplicate. If something happened to the forst one, they just evacuated to the second one. They kept copies of paper and digital files up to date in both.

One day both buildings caught fire and burnt to the ground due to a fuel oil truck catching fire in the parking lot.

What ?! Yes, the two buildings were across that parking lot from each other. When the truck caught fire, the fire spread to both buildings.

One place I worked, as another example, kept back up tapes in a completely separate building. At a lower elevation. Which a hurricane destroyed, but didn't harm the buuilding where we and the computers were.

 

[robject]

What ?! Yes, the two buildings were across that parking lot from each other. When the truck caught fire, the fire spread to both buildings.

The large companies that I worked at have DR (disaster recovery) centers in completely different geographic zones.

One small company that I worked for stored its backup data with a long-term storage facility run by another company, maybe 20 miles from the office.

A problem, solved many ways.

 

[whartung]

One day both buildings caught fire and burnt to the ground due to a fuel oil truck catching fire in the parking lot.

What ?! Yes, the two buildings were across that parking lot from each other. When the truck caught fire, the fire spread to both buildings.

One place I worked, as another example, kept back up tapes in a completely separate building. At a lower elevation. Which a hurricane destroyed, but didn't harm the buuilding where we and the computers were.

Like I said, I love these stories.

Related to your "backup tapes", there was a another facility that did that during the '89 quake in the Bay Area.

The problem was that the room, being in a basement, had a fire sprinkler pipe running through it. During the quake, the pipe ruptured and poured RUSTY waters down on to the stored tapes.

Similarly, another system, they were prescient enough to equip their computer systems with a UPS (uninterruptible power supply). Thankfully, when the quake hit, the power failed abruptly but the UPS took over keeping the servers up. Unthankfully, the retained power kept the hard drives spinning, which immediately trashed themselves with head crashes because the quake continued.

Back a bit more on topic.

Much like the protein and amino acid "goop" that they ate in The Matrix, folks may consider parts made from Makers in a similar light. "Yea, I can have anything I want -- as long as it's plastic" kind of thing. Obviously the more advanced Makers can use other materials, but I question whether you're gonna get a nice, oak Rocking Chair out of one.

Also, the Maker alone is not the entire solution. I could have a machine that prints parts for my broken refrigerator all day long, and at the end of the day - I'll have a broken refrigerator and a bunch of parts to fix it. What the heck do I know about putting refrigerators together? How do I even know what parts to print in the first place?

 

[Adam Dray]

When I worked with the Army Research Labs (ARL) in the 90's, my friend Mike Muuss told me a story about failed redundancy.

They'd built a redundant ATM (Asynchronous Transfer Mode) network and taken great lengths to use two different network carriers for the physical wire.

One day, despite everything, it all went down. No network connectivity.

Once they traced the problem to its root cause, it turned out the both carriers eventually converged their copper on the same telephone pole, which had been hit by a car.

 

[kilemall]

My senior year in one of my computer science classes, we discussed backups.

The professor gave us this true story about bad idea for backups.

A company heard about backups, got people to come in and talk to them about such things.

They built their Admin/IT buildings, and made a duplicate. If something happened to the forst one, they just evacuated to the second one. They kept copies of paper and digital files up to date in both.

One day both buildings caught fire and burnt to the ground due to a fuel oil truck catching fire in the parking lot.

What ?! Yes, the two buildings were across that parking lot from each other. When the truck caught fire, the fire spread to both buildings.

One place I worked, as another example, kept back up tapes in a completely separate building. At a lower elevation. Which a hurricane destroyed, but didn't harm the buuilding where we and the computers were.

Our company has been using a 'at least 20 miles for backup sites' standard for about a couple decades now.



Two classic DR stories I know of (and not telling ones related to my company)-

A local electronic parts company had a systems failure. The vendor was contacted and would normally have expected to fly in a part, but they said the supplier was down and they could not get the part. It got into day two and day three and the company was losing business so people were getting frantic.

Until they put two and two together, it turns out the supplier of the part that was down was- their own company.

They got out a paper report, went down to their warehouse, got the part and were back up in hours.


The second part is just as good.


Same company decides they will never be down again. So they set up a second datacenter, running parallel and a day behind to the main one, with microwave tower 'downloads' keeping the backup center to date.

Complete machine, site environment, staff, etc.

The company was out of business within a few years, as the backup effort didn't win back the lost customers and the backup center costs ate their cash flow.

Sometimes the solution is worse then the problem.

 

[BRJN]

I'd think TL 4 to 7 would be the starting point with equipment. Nothing high tech (or very little), nothing somebody with basic tools and a bit of training can't fix. ... Better to bring simple, reliable, and easily repaired equipment to get established.

U.S. pioneer communities might be a good place to start noodling around. The colonists will be at least as inventive as "Little House on the Prairie" (the books) characters were.

Every frontier subsector needs a failed utopian colony to remind everybody else not to let your head get TOO far out in the stars.
(Despite Star Trek TOS being full of social utopian colonies.)

 

[coliver988]

What ?! Yes, the two buildings were across that parking lot from each other. When the truck caught fire, the fire spread to both buildings.

Almost the same for us: we've 2 departments in the same building, so the first back up in the other office, maybe 120' away from the primary system. And our tertiary backup: middle of Florida....

So last year after the FL location got evacuated, I emailed my bosses about having a disaster recovery plan, which also includes redundant people (only 1 person knows the network system basically. And that 3rd backup: was in his house. It just got moved to the Orlando office so may be a little bit safer...)

So yeah, people really do not understand what backup or redundant systems really mean for the most part (last job was HIPAA and SOX compliant, so multiple geographically dispersed backups)

 

[ffilz]

All of these point out that a backup that is not tested isn't a backup. Of course at some point it's hard to test various failure conditions against your backup. What should at least be tested is simulating failure of one of your sites and make sure the remaining sites continue to serve and don't fail under increased load. And then making sure your redundancy is sufficient. Remote site should be in a different geographical location and not subject to the same likely disasters.

Frank

 

[Enoki]

U.S. pioneer communities might be a good place to start noodling around. The colonists will be at least as inventive as "Little House on the Prairie" (the books) characters were.

Every frontier subsector needs a failed utopian colony to remind everybody else not to let your head get TOO far out in the stars.
(Despite Star Trek TOS being full of social utopian colonies.)

You can find all sorts of off-the-grid / do-it-yourself / living on the edge videos and such now. The colonists on a world that is somewhat Earth-like have to concentrate on shelter, food, and the basics until they are sufficiently established to start specializing.

A bunch of colonists with nothing but hand tools are pretty much toast even in the long run. They simply can't do what needs doing without sustained outside support. They need some degree of power machinery to get the job done.

I note that there was a recent thread on a "loadmaster" skill. I still think that a "Construction" skill with possibly cascade skills like carpenter, electrician, plumber, etc. should be added. These are really unique skills that the current lists in any version don't cover.
If you were running some sort of colonization scenario these would be critical skills along with farming.

 

[kilemall]

I note that there was a recent thread on a "loadmaster" skill. I still think that a "Construction" skill with possibly cascade skills like carpenter, electrician, plumber, etc. should be added. These are really unique skills that the current lists in any version don't cover.
If you were running some sort of colonization scenario these would be critical skills along with farming.

Electronics and Mechanical should do for most instances of tool use- but yes buildings and civil engineering are another matter.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Those skills should definitely exist in-universe.
They may not be ones typically available to player characters in the course of their careers, though -- I'm reminded of the idea of a tactical insurance actuary as a player character...