Norris

[kafka47]

Norris, out of all, the “leaders” in the Rebellion comes across as Mr. Nice Guy trying to appease all factions yet bow down before anyone. Here is the ultimate Rebel, conformist on the outside but quietly, sneakily doing his own thing and building a significant power base doing so.

What if, however, Norris was assassinated before he was able to produce an heir? Would the factions behind the claw, dissolve and start siding with different rebellion factions? Help was certainly hard to come by in Hard Times but as Arrival Vengence points out not entirely impossible. What would a New Era look like with the Duchess of Moria as the Regent? How could she stabilize, her Imperium/Domain?

I have always seen her as the Thatcher of the Regency, thereby, provoking the Aslan into a fight and with superiority of technology possessed by the Imperium winning it (historical parallel with the UK/Argentine conflict with the United States acting like the Vargr).

 

[daryen]

It has been heavily implied in Survival Margin that if the Duchess of Mora were in charge the Domain of Deneb would have splintered and collapsed. She was a fool, heavy-handed, and arrogant. She insisted on using incompetent flunkies (Santanochev), trusting status rather than competence.

The Imperium's enemies would have taken advantage of her, and the various dukes would have fled to save their own holdings.

She was an utter disaster waiting to happen.

[Of course, that could all be press from Norris's camp to justify his takeover. But her prior history does support the view. If left to her, the Imperium would have lost the 5FW badly, losing all of Jewell, and potentially some of Vilis, too.]

 

[epicenter00]

Actually, IMTU, Norris is assassinated, or essentially so.

When the nobles hear about Norris' plans to disinfranchise the nobility before he announces it publically as policy, they decide that Norris' democratic reforms would be a disaster as it would be giving a voice to every single malcontent, agitator, and local empowerment group in the Domain at a time when the realm could ill-afford it.

They arranged for Norris to be crippled using an expert (but insane) Zhodani psionic surgeon. Not killed outright because that would probably be a blow from which the DoD wouldn't recover, but instead they have him suffer a freak stroke. For weeks, the DoD remains rapt to see what will happen to their dear leader. Then the announcement comes that Norris lives, but won't be able to fulfill his duties anymore. So they wheel him out during holidays and such to wave (fitfully) to the crowd and such - TL15 medical technology might restore motor function, but it can't restore the lost memories and personality - it's not really Norris anymore. The painful braindeath that occurs to his master, of course, kills the psionically sensitive Dilgaadin. A shame, that.

Norris' daughter, just a little girl at the time, isn't considered to be set to rule, so an actual regency is set up until she comes of age. The Duchess of Mora is named Regent of the realm and the child, but quickly is left fighting endless political battles for control of the Domain itself against rivals. Things probably would have led to a disasterous fragmenting except that the AZL that Norris sent out returns.

In my world, there is no Avery (I always hated Avery, probably even more than Norris - they both reek of worst kind of Mary Sue-ism by GDW) instead one of the ships actually brings back the "Real" Strephon instead of Avery. Strephon never announces his actual return, and only a handful of people know it's him. However, Strephon manuvers himself into a position where he's able to raise Norris' daughter.

Meanwhile, all the infighting is making a mess of the Domain. So the Domain's people are relieved when at the age of 12, Norris' daughter starts to wrest control of the destiny of the Regency over the shocked faces of Delphine and the rest of the nobles. One would think she was a natural prodigy at politics, raised in the Imperial Court or something...

 

[Whipsnade]

Epicenter,

I can't even begin to describe how FREAKIN' GREAT that is!


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Zob10701]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Epicenter,

I can't even begin to describe how FREAKIN' GREAT that is!


Have fun,
Bill

I agree.

I can't tell you how disappointed I was in the scripted conclusion of Arrival Vengeance

Marquis of Usdiki? Are you ⌧ing kidding?

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by epicenter00:
Actually, IMTU, Norris is assassinated, or essentially so.

When the nobles hear about Norris' plans to disinfranchise the nobility before he announces it publically as policy, they decide that Norris' democratic reforms would be a disaster as it would be giving a voice to every single malcontent, agitator, and local empowerment group in the Domain at a time when the realm could ill-afford it.

They arranged for Norris to be crippled using an expert (but insane) Zhodani psionic surgeon. Not killed outright because that would probably be a blow from which the DoD wouldn't recover, but instead they have him suffer a freak stroke. For weeks, the DoD remains rapt to see what will happen to their dear leader. Then the announcement comes that Norris lives, but won't be able to fulfill his duties anymore. So they wheel him out during holidays and such to wave (fitfully) to the crowd and such - TL15 medical technology might restore motor function, but it can't restore the lost memories and personality - it's not really Norris anymore. The painful braindeath that occurs to his master, of course, kills the psionically sensitive Dilgaadin. A shame, that.

Norris' daughter, just a little girl at the time, isn't considered to be set to rule, so an actual regency is set up until she comes of age. The Duchess of Mora is named Regent of the realm and the child, but quickly is left fighting endless political battles for control of the Domain itself against rivals. Things probably would have led to a disasterous fragmenting except that the AZL that Norris sent out returns.

Plausible, and well thought out. A Traveller-version of what happened when Israeli PM Ariel Sharon suffered his stroke.

In my world, there is no Avery (I always hated Avery, probably even more than Norris - they both reek of worst kind of Mary Sue-ism by GDW) instead one of the ships actually brings back the "Real" Strephon instead of Avery. Strephon never announces his actual return, and only a handful of people know it's him. However, Strephon manuvers himself into a position where he's able to raise Norris' daughter.

Yes--As the noble from Gushemege, " an outsider above the fray of Marches politcs "--a convincing argument, given the "what-ifs" and Duchess Delphine's (in-)ability to rule.

Meanwhile, all the infighting is making a mess of the Domain. So the Domain's people are relieved when at the age of 12, Norris' daughter starts to wrest control of the destiny of the Regency over the shocked faces of Delphine and the rest of the nobles. One would think she was a natural prodigy at politics, raised in the Imperial Court or something...

--

And the quiet "advisor", Strephon as a cross between the "Comte de Monte Cristo" & Cyrano de Bergerac steadies the young girl's political course, behind the throne.

Bravo, and well thought out once again epicenter .

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by kafka47:
[QB]What if, however, Norris was assassinated before he was able to produce an heir?

Seldrian was cooked up in 1097 (I forget if she was born in 1097 or 1098), so she'd be 19 in 1117. Too old for a regency.

However, there's an easier way for a powerful noble to torpedo Norris' rule. Just point out publicly that his warrant didn't show up until after the news about Strephon's assassination had reached the high nobles and the admirals of the Marches, so it could easily be a forgery.

Yes, I know the MT back story claims that Norris got the news by jump-6 and everybody else didn't get it until the jump-4 X-boats delivered it, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense when we know for a fact that the IN had jump-6 couriers. And that doesn't address the existence of civilian jump-6 trafficx at all.

(And even if the story was true, everybody knows that jump-6 is possible and would be able to figure out afterwards that Norris could have gotten word before he produced his warrant. and that if Strephon sent Norris a warrant before he was assassinated, then he didn't send it by jump-6... strange, that.

The best explanation I can come up with is that all the big nobles Behind the Claw including Delphine connived at allowing Norris to get away with his fake warrant.

(Note: I didn't say it was a good explanation).

Would the factions behind the claw, dissolve and start siding with different rebellion factions? Help was certainly hard to come by in Hard Times but as Arrival Vengence points out not entirely impossible. What would a New Era look like with the Duchess of Moria as the Regent? How could she stabilize, her Imperium/Domain?

If the Domain was really lucky, the added strain of running the show would have killed Delphine years earlier than she died in the OTU.


Hans

 

[Liam Devlin]

Back to the original premise however...

Kafka74 wrote:
What if, however, Norris was assassinated before he was able to produce an heir?

Rancke's reply:

Seldrian was cooked up in 1097 (I forget if she was born in 1097 or 1098), so she'd be 19 in 1117.

That would have produced a much different Spinward Marches, looking at those dates as the good Imperial Librarian has provided us--terminating Duke Norris ( literally or figuratively ) as a political power player in 1097-98 affects the upcoming 5FW with the Zhodani Consulate among other things (1107-1110).

Would the factions behind the claw, dissolve and start siding with different rebellion factions? Help was certainly hard to come by in Hard Times but as Arrival Vengence points out not entirely impossible. What would a New Era look like with the Duchess of Moria as the Regent? How could she stabilize, her Imperium/Domain?

Here I have to concur with Mssr daryen's assessment--Delphine was a disaster waiting to happen, and the above--heavier losses in the 5FW, as well as loss of entire Jewell, and Vilis subsectors might have been the least of changes wrought under leadership.

You'd have to re-write/ revise her entire OTU-past, and for that, creating a new unseen darkhorse Noble would be easier to do, trust me.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
...terminating Duke Norris ( literally or figuratively ) as a political power player in 1097-98 affects the upcoming 5FW with the Zhodani Consulate among other things (1107-1110).

One question is who Strephon would appoint Duke of Regina in lieu of Norris. We know very little about any other Aledons, and what we do know is highly suspect (I don't believe in the niece of Norris' that shows up in The Gabriel Enigma).


Hans

 

[daryen]

To make epicenter's idea work requires Norris to be taken out around 1140. Doing it earlier (pretty much any time prior to 1130 or so) would cause the DoD to flat out collapse. Besides, he wanted the representation reforms to be the catalyst. That did come out until 1140 or so.

No, to make epicenter's idea consistent requires just one minor change: the young girl is not Norris's daughter, but rather his granddaughter. Just have Seldrian get jiggy at the right time (so the granddaughter is the age you want), and there you are. Just be sure to kill Seldrian in a "separate and unrelated" incident.

(Or, better yet, if you are a vile and disgusting slimeball, make Seldrian one of the conspirators. In that case, she is taken out by one of the loyalists, if not Strephon himself. That would give him clear bill to care for the granddaughter.)

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

I LOVE this kind of stuff. Epicenter has certainly brought an interesting pot to the boil!

- Must ditto Daryen about the Delphine. A 5th FW that doesn't see both her and her beamish boy Santanocheev shunted aside would have been a disaster for the Imperium. We would have seen the Jewells neutralized at the very least and the Consulate's long desired 'neutral zone' between it and the Imperium established.

I'm unsure as to how much the Zhos would have allowed the Swordies to grab down in Lanth and Vilis however. Arden probably wouldn't end up with anything more either, they got to keep what they had in the original timeline because they switched sides at the right point during the war. I don't think the Vargr would get much too. The Zho's wanted a buffer and not a 'cause'. Once they had their neutral zone, the Zhos would become real supporters of the status quo.

- What effects would a such defeat in the 5th FW have on the Imperium as a whole? Would the Rebellion kickoff sooner? Strephon is seen as weaker? His policies more suspect? Would the loss encourage the Solomani to push harder on the Rim?

- GT knocked off the Delphine this year. Her great-something niece has taken over and seems to making nice with Norris... so far...

- Hans' comments about the extra Aledons found in QLI's Gabriel Enigma are spot on. For decades we've known about Daddy the dead duke, William the dead older brother duke, and Norris PERIOD. Suddenly Norris has a niece? Huh? If she's William's child, she was the heir ahead of Norris. If she isn't William's child, Norris has another sibling stashed somewhere. A sibling whose very existence has profound political implications.

Nothing in MT or TNE mentions what Norris did with his lesser titles after promoting himself to Archduke. He seems to have 'devolved' none of them in his write-up in RSB and Seldrian lists none of them in her write-up. If there were cousins in the wings wouldn't they be agitating for a few crumbs? That niece in The Gabriel Enigma is a big canonical boo-boo.

- A Norris-free 5th FW could be a nifty way to spark developments leading to a 'Rebellion Lite' setting. A lost war could see a coup on Capital with Strephon forced aside much like Styryx and a cabal of regents setup over a pliant Iphigenia. If Iffie won't play ball, other imperial heirs could certainly be found. How does a figurehead Emperor Varian or Lucan sound? The Regents would trade power to the Domains and other regions in return for support which in turn would weaken the Imperial system further. Local factions would look to purely local leaders to handle their disputes. The decisions by those leaders would come into conflict with decisions made by other local leaders. Eventually, factional fighting would break out between the various nascent pocket empire the Imperium was dissolving into.

Could another Arbellatra appear on the scene? I doubt it.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[mike wightman]

Has it ever been stated what made Strephon re-empower the archdukes?

It could be that Norris' success during the FFW made Strephon aware of how useful capable frontier leaders could be - and also that the Imperial core is just too far away from likely flashpoints for Imperial level authority to be granted - hence the desire to put the archdukes back in the loop.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by rancke:
One question is who Strephon would appoint Duke of Regina in lieu of Norris. We know very little about any other Aledons, and what we do know is highly suspect (I don't believe in the niece of Norris' that shows up in The Gabriel Enigma).


Hans

A piece of Traveller I do not have. Fascinating--a Niece?
(I've read and seen more media & literature on Santa Claus by comparison, and I don't believe in him either

)

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by daryen:
To make epicenter's idea work requires Norris to be taken out around 1140. Doing it earlier (pretty much any time prior to 1130 or so) would cause the DoD to flat out collapse. Besides, he wanted the representation reforms to be the catalyst. That did come out until 1140 or so.

True--Kafka's premise calls for this to be the spark on the fuse of his idea's explosive conclusion.

No, to make epicenter's idea consistent requires just one minor change: the young girl is not Norris's daughter, but rather his granddaughter. Just have Seldrian get jiggy at the right time (so the granddaughter is the age you want), and there you are. Just be sure to kill Seldrian in a "separate and unrelated" incident.

As I recall, Seldrian was 25-26 at time of the Arrival Vengeance Mission. Easy fix there--Kill her off along the mission route. Places earlier emphasis on the granddaughter angle--made from her tissues brought back on the Vennie.

(Or, better yet, if you are a vile and disgusting slimeball, make Seldrian one of the conspirators. In that case, she is taken out by one of the loyalists, if not Strephon himself. That would give him clear bill to care for the granddaughter.)

By description, she was a rather homely faced gal, so the Sexy heiress kills daddy angle goes flat here.

Slimeball? No, but I like the twisted way your mind works these subplot pretzels before me!

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
- Hans' comments about the extra Aledons found in QLI's Gabriel Enigma are spot on. For decades we've known about Daddy the dead duke, William the dead older brother duke, and Norris PERIOD. Suddenly Norris has a niece? Huh? If she's William's child, she was the heir ahead of Norris. If she isn't William's child, Norris has another sibling stashed somewhere. A sibling whose very existence has profound political implications.

Actually, there's a nephew of Norris named Audine [Aledon?] Garhik mentioned in MTJ3. He's the 1st Marquis of Vincennes (of a new creation; the previous holder died without an heir in 1108) and Count of Perez and Eriris. Note the bass-awkwardness of the title. So there could be a third Aledon sibling. But he would presumably be younger than Norris (and if his son's family name is not Aledon, he (or she) must have married someone with a higher rank). But Xena Norris is about the same age as Norris...

Oh, and Norris isn't married, so there's no spouse to provide siblings-in-law.

I'm also rather sceptical of the information that the Imperial consul to Collace in District 268 is appointed by the Duke of Regina rather than the Emperor or perhaps the sector duke. Even the Duchess of Glisten and the Duke of Lunion are more likely to be involved in appointing an Imperial diplomat in District 268.

But the absolute highlight is the SEH that this niece of Norris was awarded by the Archduke of Deneb some time prior to 1108...

If you ask me, Xena Norris is a con artist who has worked her wiles the local admiral.

You know, that gives me an idea for a Casual Encounter...


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
A piece of Traveller I do not have. Fascinating--a Niece?

Liam,

The Gabriel Enigma is a T20 adventure available right here at QLI.

IMHO it's one of the weaker ones QLI has published. Just not my 'cuppa' so to speak. Then again, my taste in RPG adventures aren't exactly the norm either.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by rancke:
Actually, there's a nephew of Norris named Audine [Aledon?] Garhik mentioned in MTJ3.

Hans,

DGP again... sigh

He's the 1st Marquis of Vincennes (of a new creation; the previous holder died without an heir in 1108) and Count of Perez and Eriris.

Vincennes? That's in the Deneb Sector... tiny mental wheels begin moving...

How about this? Audine Garhik is Norris' step-nephew-in-law. Before he died, William married a widowed noble lady with a son from a previous marriage. It was the usual political dynastic stuff, the Aledons of the Marches linking up with the Garhiks of Deneb and all that.

Audine isn't the heir of anything in particular because his father wasn't the heir of anything in particular. Audine's daddy was just another 'spare heir' given some fancy sounding, but essentially worthless, title like 'Count of Perez and Eriris'. Normally little Audine wouldn't inherit that title from Daddy Garhik as it is reserved for 'spare heir', but fate intervenes. William dies and the old Duke is sickly. William's son is Audine, but it isn't automatic that he'll inherit when the old Duke dies.

First, there's no way in hell the Imperium wants an important border duchy like Regina led by a child. There's a war brewing, Regina needs a duke and not a regency.

Second, Audine isn't an Aledon. It's entirely plausible that part of the marriage contract states he cannot inherit from William. There are plenty of examples of morganatic marriages and stepchildren being written out of claims to a title in real world history.

So William dies and little Audine loses Daddy #2. He and Mummy pack up and return home to their family in Deneb. Audine hasn't lost everything though. Because the marriage contract cut him out of line for Regina Duchy, it was decided that the little fellow should recieve something in return for giving up his claim. What he got to keep was his biological father's 'spare heir' title as the Count of Perez and Eriris.

Audine does well in school and whatever career that follows. He makes the right contacts, shakes the right hands, slaps the right backs, hates the right people, uses the right fork, and successfully climbs the right ladder. When the Vincennes job comes open, the striving son of the Garhik's dead 'spare heir' is the right man in the right place. He gets the marquisate and a real title. The end.

Sort of brings a tear to your eye, doesn't it? I'll bet Shirley Temple will play him in the movie.

If you ask me, Xena Norris is a con artist who has worked her wiles the local admiral.

That's most likely the best solution to a bad situation.

Can't wait to read that Casual Encounter!


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
By description, she was a rather homely faced gal, so the Sexy heiress kills daddy angle goes flat here.

Liam,

Description? Heck, we've got pictures. And they ain't pretty.

For those of you who haven't seen her, think Norris, with boobs, without a mustache, and after extensive liposuction. Feel the gorge rising?

Norris' supposedly went with a female clone so she could have a stronger sense of self. If that's true, why didn't he give her her own face?

I never liked Avery, never even liked the idea of Avery, and liked very much how TNE dispatched him but, as much as I didn't like him, no one deserves Seldrian as a wife.

Then again, none of the Imperial peers we've seen can be said to be attractive. Iolanthe has a stern blandness and Iffie's reported bookworm personality must make her a real delight across the breakfast table. Dulinor's daughter Isis is supposedly one of the most beautiful women in the Imperium. We'll have to take that report on it's own merits because the only picture I've seen of her is not flattering in the slightest.

If Isis is beautiful, it must skip a generation in her family. One of DGP's magazines had a picture of Isis' mother. Believe me, Dulinor's wife, whose name escape me, looks like a dame in Three Stooges short. You know, the harridan who hires them to fix her doorbell and, after they destroy the house, chases them down the street firing shotgun blasts into their buttocks? Broad's got a face like a meat cleaver. shudder


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Liam Devlin]

Bill Cameron;

The Gabriel Enigma is a T20 adventure available right here at QLI.

IMHO it's one of the weaker ones QLI has published. Just not my 'cuppa' so to speak. Then again, my taste in RPG adventures aren't exactly the norm either.

Many thanks! I shall after some 1248 purchases see what remains of my purse...

As for your esteemed "taste in adventures", I understand. But as one who writes said things, source materials are a valuable thing--even if I never ran it for my players.

Liam,

Description? Heck, we've got pictures . And they ain't pretty.

For those of you who haven't seen her, think Norris, with boobs, without a mustache, and after extensive liposuction. Feel the gorge rising?

Norris' supposedly went with a female clone so she could have a stronger sense of self. If that's true, why didn't he give her her own face?

yes, I have a deadtree of MT's AV Mission, and do recall ( Shudder-shudder ) her visage. I was being diplomatically inclined not to go into detail ( Gorge settles with evening-morning Kaff intake finally )

Then again, none of the Imperial peers we've seen can be said to be attractive. Iolanthe has a stern blandness and Iffie's reported bookworm personality must make her a real delight across the breakfast table. Dulinor's daughter Isis is supposedly one of the most beautiful women in the Imperium. We'll have to take that report on it's own merits because the only picture I've seen of her is not flattering in the slightest.

I blame the editions changing times and differing artist renditions. From one who has observed a myriad of portraitures throughout RW-RL History, and the TU histories, there is case precedence for the Queen Victoria's ("a face as plain as a mudhen's"--Disraeli's own words for the grand dame of the English Colonial zenith) and other royalty. Look at the Czarist family portraits of Nicholas II--Anastasia and maybe one of her other sisters--darling looking--the rest..feh.

If Isis is beautiful, it must skip a generation in her family. One of DGP's magazines had a picture of Isis' mother. Believe me, Dulinor's wife, whose name escape me, looks like a dame in Three Stooges short. You know, the harridan who hires them to fix her doorbell and, after they destroy the house, chases them down the street firing shotgun blasts into their buttocks? Broad's got a face like a meat cleaver. shudder

Princess Isis' face and good looks certes have more writ about than illustrated, no argument. I Thought in the Adventure to Core, which before computer-possession I had xeroxed as a backup in those days, The woman illustrated with Dulinor is his HIS wife, not Lady Isis. No argument--I'd leave Dlan/Ilelish just to get away from her too!

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
- A Norris-free 5th FW could be a nifty way to spark developments leading to a 'Rebellion Lite' setting. A lost war could see a coup on Capital with Strephon forced aside much like Styryx and a cabal of regents setup over a pliant Iphigenia.

One idea I have toyed with trying to write up is one that assumes Norris fails to get the warrant.

In that case, having failed to retrieve the warrant, he must try to seize control through diplomacy and force of personality. Failing, he is forced to watch the Imperium lose the 5FW badly, including seeing Rhylanor and his beloved Regina invaded by Zhodani forces.

At this point an embittered and ostracsized Norris strikes a deal with the Zhodani. With their blessing and assistance he forms a pro-Zhodani neutral state that consists of the spinward half of the Regina subsector and most of the Jewell subsector.

The effect of this is to also force the Imperium almost completely out of the Vilis subsector.

Being a pro-Zho state, this new Regina state would institute psionic reforms immediately. And, since much of the nobility would be opposed to the move, they would probably have to be disenfranchised. Enter some representational reforms to help push them out. Maybe even call the resulting state the Republic of Regina.

It would be a difficult act to play, but depending on how well Norris calls the defeat as it happens, he could effectively turn the populace against the Imperium that "abandoned" them, rather than the invading Zhodani.

It would be interesting to see the reaction of Strephon to those events. Finding out that the guy you were depending on to save the day for you has now turned completely against you can't be a good feeling.

Could another Arbellatra appear on the scene? I doubt it.

Probably not. But how about having Dulinor attempt to fulfill that role? He probably wouldn't succeed, but it could be quite interesting to see him try.