Nobles in the 3rd Imperium (c. 1100)

[david.wendelken]

The original Traveller setting was somewhat vague as to what an Imperial Noble's rights, privileges, responsibilities and resources were.

Gurps Nobles book says the Nobles exist to step in and run the Imperial government agencies when "the normal bureaucratic response" is the wrong thing to be doing. Although a noble might actually own a world and/or be the political leader of it, it is by no means a sure thing. The "planetary noble" is the representative of the planet to the Imperium and vice-versa.

I was going thru the Mongoose Deneb sector book and the planetary nobles in that book are really feudal lords with the planets as their fiefs. They run the planets.

I like the Gurps idea better, not to mention I think it's a lot more stable that way.

How about you? What are the rights, privileges, responsibilities and resources in your campaign?

 

[ShapeShifter]

Dumarest = Traveller.

My predominant inspiration for the use of nobles comes from the "Dumarest" books, not surprisingly. They are often decadent, lecherous, indolent, despotic, sadistic and other adjectives of a less than pleasant import. They certainly do not personify any 'noble' attributes.

 

[Icosahedron]

In my ATU, I've largely dispensed with Imperial Nobles, as I couldn't see them surviving.

We have only to look at a history of the 20th century to see what happens when nobles and their fiefs become separated (whether through political or financial erosion). They may last a century - possibly several, as powerless figureheads - but within a few lifetimes they will cease to exist in any meaningful form.

Therefore IMTU, the nobles rolled on the chargen tables are current planetary nobles with fiefs somewhere on world.

Imperial nobles may exist - as mere titles, or as an ancient planetary fiefdom on the Core Worlds - perhaps a vestige of the Imperial might that was once a Pocket Empire, giving planets as fiefs to its nobility, but the power of nobility has long since faded in the trade bureaucracy that forms the current Imperium.

Any powerful Imperial nobles are not powerful because of their useless titles, but because they have been given a Governorship, a Prefecture, a naval Flag Rank, Directorship of a Megacorp or perhaps a seat on the Senate. It is their jobs that provide the power, not some title or dirt-speck fief, and the jobs may be given to non-nobles, too.

Thus the rights, privileges, responsibilities and resources are limited to their planetary fiefs, if such have survived. If they have only a fiefless title, they have none of the above - except what may be bestowed on them by the authorities in recognition of their tradition and ancestry. (Jobs for the Old Boys).

 

[mike wightman]

I can'r see an Imperium surviving without nobles, how else do you maintain authority?

Call them admirals, governors, directors or dukes - their job is the same. To act in the Emperor's name as the Emperor would do.

Without FTL comms the central government has to trust their representatives who are months away from orders and oversight.

It's actually the institution of Emperor I would dump.

The core worlds could easily elect a parliament of representatives and have a cabinet system of government. But they are still going to have to send their trusted vassals off to govern in their name.

 

[Vargas]

There's some insight provided in The Traveller Adventure where it talks about the Marquis Aramis.

 

[Carlobrand]

...We have only to look at a history of the 20th century to see what happens when nobles and their fiefs become separated (whether through political or financial erosion). They may last a century - possibly several, as powerless figureheads - but within a few lifetimes they will cease to exist in any meaningful form.
...

I'm looking at history, and I'm not drawing that conclusion. Where the local culture has dispensed with monarchy and its trappings, it is true that the nobles fade off rather quickly into meaninglessness. However, the example of the constitutional monarchies is that people do like their titles, even as "powerless figureheads;" the institutions endure where the local culture continues to embrace the idea, and the recipients are indeed accorded a degree of respect and deference as a result.

I tend to see things noble-wise in the TU as a bit reversed from what you see. Other than the honor titles, titles tend to be conferred on individuals who are powerful to begin with, those people tend to be pretty jealous of their prerogatives - and pretty influential, and pretty eager to extend their personal power base - so the titles tend to draw power and influence, and those that hold them are very likely to use their personal power and influence to get power and influence attached to their titles as well.

Some titles are hereditary, but those who lack power also lack the means to defend themselves from the political maneuverings and dirty underhanded tricks that can see them stripped of their titles or their offspring denied the right to inherit the family title - the rich and powerful do not lack for ruthlessness and ambition when you've got something they want.

Which is not to say you're wrong to do things as you prefer in your own TU - just that in my TU the Baron of such-and-such is very likely to be a Tukera or an Oberlindes relation, with additional influential roles and profitable duties affixing to the title as a result of his/her "valuable service to the Imperium", while the weak and ineffectual Count Blacksheep who's got gambling debts up to his eyeballs is likely to find himself publicly disgraced and stripped of his honors as a result of some cleverly trumped-up charge. Ergo, the typical noble is either quite powerful or is fighting a desperate and likely fore-doomed battle for what little power and influence remains to him.

IMTU, whether the chicken came from the egg or the egg came from the chicken doesn't matter much to the average Joe who finds himself entangled with the doings of the high nobility - he still finds himself getting pecked.

 

[Icosahedron]

Which is not to say you're wrong to do things as you prefer in your own TU - just that in my TU the Baron of such-and-such is very likely to be a Tukera or an Oberlindes relation, with additional influential roles and profitable duties affixing to the title as a result of his/her "valuable service to the Imperium", while the weak and ineffectual Count Blacksheep who's got gambling debts up to his eyeballs is likely to find himself publicly disgraced and stripped of his honors as a result of some cleverly trumped-up charge. Ergo, the typical noble is either quite powerful or is fighting a desperate and likely fore-doomed battle for what little power and influence remains to him.

Looks like our views are not that different after all - 'Tukera' is a noble family name that remains powerful not because of its 'nobility', but because of its megacorp business holdings, while 'Blacksheep' demonstrates what happens to those who have not adapted to the new world order. Either way, their 'nobility' per se attracts nothing more than a curtsey at the gala and an occasional ribbon-cutting at the local supermarket. Real influence in both our TUs goes with the Directorship, not the Barony.

 

[Carlobrand]

Looks like our views are not that different after all - 'Tukera' is a noble family name that remains powerful not because of its 'nobility', but because of its megacorp business holdings, while 'Blacksheep' demonstrates what happens to those who have not adapted to the new world order. Either way, their 'nobility' per se attracts nothing more than a curtsey at the gala and an occasional ribbon-cutting at the local supermarket. Real influence in both our TUs goes with the Directorship, not the Barony.

Mostly. In my TU, the Directorship uses the Nobility as a means of exerting control in areas that a Directorship otherwise would not ordinarily be able to exert direct control. Tukera's power is economic; a Marquis or Count or Duke can exert power over matters of interstellar policy or government involving the worlds under his jurisdiction - for example, granting tax incentives or subsidies along routes dominated by Tukera under the guise of encouraging trade between certain systems, steering Imperial government contracts toward Tukera-controlled subsidiaries, and so forth.

 

[GypsyComet]

I was going thru the Mongoose Deneb sector book and the planetary nobles in that book are really feudal lords with the planets as their fiefs. They run the planets.

I like the Gurps idea better, not to mention I think it's a lot more stable that way.

You did catch that the high nobles of Deneb are something of an aberration by the standards of the rest of the Imperium, right?

The high nobles of the Spinward Marches are a mixed bag. The Duchess of Mora is also the planetary ruler of one of the oldest settled worlds in the sector, while the Duke of Regina is not a direct ruler of that world. The region around Regina *is* his Emperor-given responsibility, however.

By comparison, the Dukes of Deneb all started as literal lords of their worlds. The first Duke of Deneb built much of the world and its surrounds while it was under his direct rule and the young Imperium was still far away. One of the other Duchies was brought into the Imperium whole, converted from a pre-Imperial Vargr state. All of the Ducal seats of Deneb Sector are centuries old power bases for the families that hold the titles. In most cases the same families that carved those duchies out of the wilderness.

Looking at the rest of the Imperium, I suspect you will find a mixture. The Ducal seats have a high rate of familial retention, but every now and then some young scion screws up and pisses off the wrong Emperor, and a Ducal seat changes hands. These are the nobles who are more likely to take the responsibility of the seat more seriously, since they will often be lacking the ancient company ownerships, personal oaths, and collection of secrets the old families have, and thus cannot be simply blue-blooded and power mad.

Below the Dukes the positions are going to be more fluid. While you will find old families holding Baronial territories for centuries, you are also going to find Baronies and Counties that are not held across generations, are handed out anew by each Emperor, or in fact include no real territory at all. Like the new Dukes, these nobles know what side their bread is buttered on and by whom.

There is no real uniformity. The Imperium is over a thousand years old and BIG!

 

[Dragoner]

How about you? What are the rights, privileges, responsibilities and resources in your campaign?

S4: Nobles: lndividuals of the upper classes who perform little consistent function,
but often have large amounts of ready money.

This pretty much sums it up; imo, a more meritocratic system where title follows rank is more logical and believable.

 

[nDervish]

Nobles IMTU are much like those in the real world today. They're attached to specific planetary governments, where they may wield actual power or they may be figureheads with purely ceremonial duties. When they travel, every courtesy is extended to them, as fits their position, even though they will rarely have any official status outside of their homeworld unless there's a treaty providing that status.

A big part of this treatment comes from the decision that there's no Third Imperium or similar overarching government IMTU. At best, a noble rank can be conferred by a pocket empire of maybe a dozen worlds. Outside of that area, a noble can expect to receive respect and courtesy as a matter of custom, but that's about it.

 

[mbrinkhues]

I'm looking at history, and I'm not drawing that conclusion. Where the local culture has dispensed with monarchy and its trappings, it is true that the nobles fade off rather quickly into meaninglessness. However, the example of the constitutional monarchies is that people do like their titles, even as "powerless figureheads;" the institutions endure where the local culture continues to embrace the idea, and the recipients are indeed accorded a degree of respect and deference as a result.

I tend to see things noble-wise in the TU as a bit reversed from what you see. Other than the honor titles, titles tend to be conferred on individuals who are powerful to begin with, those people tend to be pretty jealous of their prerogatives - and pretty influential, and pretty eager to extend their personal power base - so the titles tend to draw power and influence, and those that hold them are very likely to use their personal power and influence to get power and influence attached to their titles as well.

Some titles are hereditary, but those who lack power also lack the means to defend themselves from the political maneuverings and dirty underhanded tricks that can see them stripped of their titles or their offspring denied the right to inherit the family title - the rich and powerful do not lack for ruthlessness and ambition when you've got something they want.

Which is not to say you're wrong to do things as you prefer in your own TU - just that in my TU the Baron of such-and-such is very likely to be a Tukera or an Oberlindes relation, with additional influential roles and profitable duties affixing to the title as a result of his/her "valuable service to the Imperium", while the weak and ineffectual Count Blacksheep who's got gambling debts up to his eyeballs is likely to find himself publicly disgraced and stripped of his honors as a result of some cleverly trumped-up charge. Ergo, the typical noble is either quite powerful or is fighting a desperate and likely fore-doomed battle for what little power and influence remains to him.

IMTU, whether the chicken came from the egg or the egg came from the chicken doesn't matter much to the average Joe who finds himself entangled with the doings of the high nobility - he still finds himself getting pecked.

Even in countries that did remove nobility the nobles or at least some of them keep powerful. Germany has quite a few nobles in politics and/or wealth like the „pig baron" Freiherr von Heereman who is a major political figure in the n-th generation AND a major agrarian operator. They had connections, property separat from their fiefs and quite often the skills as negotiaters and politicians. The few countries that truely lost nobles in places of power typically killed them off by the score and exiled the rest [Russia, France] or had a small nobility and mostly administrators [China] In some countries nobility has changed it's disp[ay of power [Japan] but is still there

 

[Cryton]

Imperial Nobles in MTU seem to have little power...at first. Usually, they are a part of no planetary government, holding sway only over their fiefs/land grants, the imperial starport, and any 3I facilitys that may be present on planet or in system. They have in most respects little power over the doings and day to day operations of the local government.

As a side note: Imperial Fifes and starports are, in MTU, universally LL 3 and either at the local TL, or 12, whichever is higher. The listed starports on worlds in the 3I are Imperial property and land, and no mater how extensive, or sparse, and are maintained to that standard.

Where a Nobles power comes into play on a planetary level, is that they are both watchdogs and tax collectors.

They make sure that none of the 3Is few laws are violated by the local governments. That alone can make them powerful figures in local politics. Especially as they can call in 3I military forces, if necessary, to ensure that violations are stopped. Aside from not allowing violations of the 3Is few laws, they do not interfere in local government at all.

Second, they collect the taxes levied by the 3I and make sure that the 3I receives them. Again, a powerful position and one not to be trifled with.

Finally, on a lesser note, the 3I Noble is the direct representative of the Emperor and the 3I, making said Noble a diplomat by default, and they can act as intermediaries between a worlds government and outside interests when needed.

All of this makes the local 3I Noble a powerful figure on the local world, separate from, but often more powerful than the worlds government in ways, yet weaker in others.

 

[aramis]

Mine mirror's Cryton's pretty closely. The great irony - friends for 25 years, neighbors for 10... and we don't play in each other's Traveller games...

Mine differs a bit in that the standard "Landed Noble" is enfeoffed with a starport, and granted a unit of Imp Marines to defend it. Anywhere from a platoon to a regiment. Plus whatever huscarles they can afford. Only one major restriction on Huscarles (and marine loaners): NO LOCALS!!!

And, should the noble decide he needs to, he can shut down traffic, and the IN will back him.

 

[Cryton]

Mine mirror's Cryton's pretty closely. The great irony - friends for 25 years, neighbors for 10... and we don't play in each other's Traveller games...

Mine differs a bit in that the standard "Landed Noble" is enfeoffed with a starport, and granted a unit of Imp Marines to defend it. Anywhere from a platoon to a regiment. Plus whatever huscarles they can afford. Only one major restriction on Huscarles (and marine loaners): NO LOCALS!!!

And, should the noble decide he needs to, he can shut down traffic, and the IN will back him.

Mine does include all that too. Only thing I think I failed to mention were the huscarls.

Also, it is not unusual for a 3I noble in MTU to be the "CEO" of a mega corp, as Traveller MegaCrps tend to be powers unto themselves. Mind you, they are ones without specific planets, but in essence, close enough.

 

[Timerover51]

That is an interesting idea giving a landed noble a starport. I always assumed the extraterritoriality of the starport, as least the A/B/B ones, and having the ability to shut it down does give a noble quite a bit of clout on a world. I can understand about the "no locals" requirement, based on the problem of conflicting loyalties.

Towards the end of the medieval period in Europe, monetary fiefs were also being given out, so in some cases, nobles in my Traveller universe have special trade concessions or privileges, such as a portion of customs receipts from a starport in exchange for taking responsibility for security of the spaceport and the immediate planetary space. That would be close to yours, but with the addition of a small fleet of patrol ships.

 

[aramis]

That is an interesting idea giving a landed noble a starport. I always assumed the extraterritoriality of the starport, as least the A/B/B ones, and having the ability to shut it down does give a noble quite a bit of clout on a world. I can understand about the "no locals" requirement, based on the problem of conflicting loyalties.

Towards the end of the medieval period in Europe, monetary fiefs were also being given out, so in some cases, nobles in my Traveller universe have special trade concessions or privileges, such as a portion of customs receipts from a starport in exchange for taking responsibility for security of the spaceport and the immediate planetary space. That would be close to yours, but with the addition of a small fleet of patrol ships.

The patrol ships are, canonically, the world's... but it's not uncommon for the huscarles to include a couple Type T's.