Krikkitone
SOC-12
I think the difference here is the 3I nobles are “assigned“ their lands. They don’t really get to move them. (they can change where they live, but the actual lands can’t move without the levels above them giving+ taking away.
Nobles in T5
- Thread starter Dagrill
- Start date
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Depends on residency requirements.
You could steward them out.
You could steward them out.
Yes. Keep in mind there is a difference between private property owned outright by the Noble, and the land and appurtenances thereof belonging to the enfeoffment-grant (which belong to the Imperium), which are at the Noble's and their heirs' disposal to use as they see fit, as long as they do not arouse the Emperor's displeasure.
A noble need not live on his lands. In fact, many higher Nobles almost certainly don't, as having grants from several different titles of enfoeffment on different worlds means that you will have to choose one place of primary residence, and that place need not necessarily be on any of those worlds, frankly. The land-grants on the fief worlds might be set up primarily as income/revenue streams from profits gained though economic activity or resource development occurring on those lands, and might have no estates at all. The Archduke of Gateway in 1115 maintains his primary residence on Capital, which is in the Domain of Sylea (though I am sure he has an Archducal estate on the Gateway Domain capital, and probably a family estate on a world of lesser precedence associated with holdings his family possesed prior to elevation to the Archducal position).
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BackworldTraveller
SOC-13
Hmmm. Are lands attached to the title in fee-simple or are they allodial? What right does the Emperor have to alienate lands without due process? What are the rules of succession? They seem to vary by title!
If a Duke has 3 children, what SOC are they? 15 or 10 or something in the middle?
The Duke holds land from the various intervening titles. Are those titles passed to the oldest only?
When two nobles of the same rank marry, which titles pass to which offspring? There doesn't seem to be much (any) aggregation of titles over the centuries.
If a Duke has 3 children, what SOC are they? 15 or 10 or something in the middle?
The Duke holds land from the various intervening titles. Are those titles passed to the oldest only?
When two nobles of the same rank marry, which titles pass to which offspring? There doesn't seem to be much (any) aggregation of titles over the centuries.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
1. Inheritance is tricky; we could assume that the eldest takes all, while the younger siblings make due from assets accumulated that aren't directly attached to the title(s).
2. If you want to split the titles amongst the progeny, you probably have to petition the Emperor.
3. Considering how much actual power the Nobility wields, likely there's a cap as to how many titles can be accumulated; also, could be inefficient to administer that many fiefs.
4. The Norman solution to split holdings far apart to prevent centralization of power may not be quite as workable at interstellar distances.
2. If you want to split the titles amongst the progeny, you probably have to petition the Emperor.
3. Considering how much actual power the Nobility wields, likely there's a cap as to how many titles can be accumulated; also, could be inefficient to administer that many fiefs.
4. The Norman solution to split holdings far apart to prevent centralization of power may not be quite as workable at interstellar distances.
A small local hex associated with each terrain hex of a Land Grant is apparently allodial. The rest of each terrain hex in a Land Grant is apparently in fee-simple.
The Emperor seems to have great latitude regarding the alienation of such lands, but the Noble can always appeal to the Moot. And the Emperor is probably well advised to remain in the good graces of the Moot, which is collectively comprised of all of the Noble Peers.
They may indeed vary be title, as in some cases inheritance is dictated by local custom. But such details are clearly spelled out in the Patent of Nobility.
Nominally they are 1 SOC-level less than the parent until the heir takes the title and moves up to the higher level. Remember going all the way back to CT it is implied in the SOC stat that all members of a family use titles and are Noble (and thus are effective "Honour Nobility" (- see above) until they inherit), whether they stand to inherit or not. In this way Traveller Nobility are more like Old European Continental Nobility than the British Peerage. Perhaps a child or heir merely appends the legal honorific "Lord" to their name prior to inheriting, much as the younger sons of Marquesses and Dukes do in Britain. Also, a title-holder might abdicate one of his lesser titles to his heir early (something akin to the modern day British "Writ of Acceleration", but for a different purpose) in order to grant him experience in administering a holding or to qualify him to hold a certain post requiring a certain standing, prior to inheriting the full set of holdings/grants.
The idea that only the heir is noble (and only upon inheriting) is a peculiarly British notion among the various European peerages that prevented a proliferation of titles among the English. Most European powers considered all children of a noble to be noble, and allowed the children some type of variation in style on the parent's and/or heir's title in common usage (hence the great number of Counts in old Germany and Italy - most were members of non-inheriting cadet lines). ("Graf Wilhelm von Solcheinland" and "Wilhelm, Graf von Solcheinland" implied two different family standings socially based on the style and usage - the first was a titleholder, the second was a non-inheriting younger son).
See (Wikipedia):
Nominally, but there is precedent for dividing some subsidiary titles to different siblings in some cases.
The Emperor may step in and require two or more High Landed Tiltles to be spit among two or more heirs in order to prevent centralization of too much power in a single individual. All titles ultimately derive from the Emperor.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
In theory, the heir can take the next lower title as a courtesy, and his heir the next one down, and if they're taking anagatics, ad infinitum.
Krikkitone
SOC-12
I think the general idea is the value* of your “title land” is based on the value/prosperity of the world it’s on. (that the title is for).
*both economic value (ie money it pays you) and prestige/political value (your world is more important to the imperium/sector/subsector the more $ it brings in)
*both economic value (ie money it pays you) and prestige/political value (your world is more important to the imperium/sector/subsector the more $ it brings in)
Yes. That is why:
- Dukes are usually assigned to "Important" worlds
- Counts are usually assigned to High-Population or Industrial worlds, whereas Marquises and Viscounts are assigned to "Pre-Industrial" and "Pre-High-Population" worlds
- Barons are usually assigned to Rich or Agricultural worlds, whereas Baronets are assigned to "Pre-Rich" or "Pre-Agricultural" worlds
Baroun Tardis
SOC-12
Sucks to be the 14th heir then....
Homeless guy: "No, really, I'm in line to be ArchDuke!"
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
There might be a wealth requirement, to keep up with duties, responsibilities and dignity of the title.
Which is why young noble progeny chase heiresses, before the bailiffs foreclose on Ye Stately Old Pile.
Which is why young noble progeny chase heiresses, before the bailiffs foreclose on Ye Stately Old Pile.
Commander Truestar
SOC-13
IMTU, Titles tend to come in various forms.
And, where you were granted your title for your actions or the effect of your work on the planet/local system/cluster...etc, I presume the granting Nobleperson or authority can pay you a stipend.
However, there are also the "Lady Diana Spencers" of the universe, who are scions of a family which is well off, but who still have to work a mundane day job to pay their bills (Lady Diana was a nursery teacher's assistant). Yes, her family had money, but that did not mean "she" did. Added to that, there are many older entitled families who've entirely run out of "the old family fortune" and who are no different that the average sophont on the street. So, they can even be beggars who happen to have an ancient and disrespected title.
And, where you were granted your title for your actions or the effect of your work on the planet/local system/cluster...etc, I presume the granting Nobleperson or authority can pay you a stipend.
However, there are also the "Lady Diana Spencers" of the universe, who are scions of a family which is well off, but who still have to work a mundane day job to pay their bills (Lady Diana was a nursery teacher's assistant). Yes, her family had money, but that did not mean "she" did. Added to that, there are many older entitled families who've entirely run out of "the old family fortune" and who are no different that the average sophont on the street. So, they can even be beggars who happen to have an ancient and disrespected title.
Contrary to common assumptions, there is a clear model of the nobility controlling any number of worlds. In T4 Pocket Empires, p7-8, 24 & 28 it's pretty clear that in the 3I's past members of the nobility (families) were in direct control of planets and small empires before their absorption into the Imperium. If it was a practice at the commencement of the 3I, I reckon that it would be a practice that would continue as it expanded out to its current borders. Where there was a successful and competent local (planetary or extraplanetary) government that might not be the case, but precedent can be important, especially where it enriches powerful interests.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Especially if the practice establishes DYNASTIES that are then able to entrench themselves via nepotism (and self dealing). You know, like almost every aristocracy in the history of humaniti has attempted to do in order to stave off the inevitable.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If titling is limited, you set up clans and alliances.
This sort of role and behaviour is the sort that I used occasionally but believed was necessary for effective nobility in the 3I. By effective, I mean they're able to generate collective action amongst the nobility in their area of responsibility.
I haven't taken the perspective that there are strict and inflexible laws around demanding slavish adherence to oaths of fealty taken by a noble to their liege, and this model would start to fall down if one owed allegiance to a higher noble than one closer to them (the Archduke of Deneb rather than the local Subsector Count). I imagine if there were, then in a modern (future) state legal challenges could frustrate holding someone to account. Unless of course the 3I is ultimately a despotic corporate authoritarian state where the wealthiest shareholder family can simply do as they wish and not be held accountable, setting a similar precedent to their underlings.
I haven't taken the perspective that there are strict and inflexible laws around demanding slavish adherence to oaths of fealty taken by a noble to their liege, and this model would start to fall down if one owed allegiance to a higher noble than one closer to them (the Archduke of Deneb rather than the local Subsector Count). I imagine if there were, then in a modern (future) state legal challenges could frustrate holding someone to account. Unless of course the 3I is ultimately a despotic corporate authoritarian state where the wealthiest shareholder family can simply do as they wish and not be held accountable, setting a similar precedent to their underlings.
