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Noble promotion

GBoyett

SOC-14 1K
There is a 2 point jump between each title on the Soc table. When a noble gets a promotion, do they go to the next title or Soc level
(ex. will baron get promote to soc 18 or soc 20?)
 
Making plans George????.....good man....good man!!!!
 
The way I read it, each Rank Promotion earned during the Noble Prior History should elevate the character to the next title up in precendece. That means a +2 to Social Standing. So a Baron (SOC 18) will go to Marquis (SOC 20). But as a referee I'd have to watch that vry closely. It's theoretically possible for a Knight to be promoted all the way to Emperor.

In betweem I'd let Nobles use their Ability increases to improve SOC by single steps, so that a SOC 19 charcter is a "senior" baron, for example. No real game mechanical effect, but they get more respect amongst the nobility than "regular" barons.

Related to this, how do people feel about allowing Ability Increases from levels gained to increase SOC above 15? I know the text on page 35 says you can't, but it seems natural for a naval oficer (for example) to be able to boost their SOC to 16 (Knight) while in service.
 
I'm against this. I would only allow soc gains at/above noble level if there is an ingame justification - and then I'd just give it to them rather than forcing them to allocate stat gains.

For example, if there character has been doing acts of deering do and already has a high SOC, if they do something particularly noteable, I might advance them to Knighthood, but I would still let them spend their stat gains normally. If they hadn;t been recieveing imperial attention, then they cannot become a knight no matter how much they may want to.

Having said the above, Does soc represent actual noble rank or rather does it represent "manners" for example, a marine who has been elevate dtwice for acts of valor, probably still acts as the same low SOC person he always did despite his noble rank. Contrarily, if you are the third son of a baron, you probably don;t have any noble rank (possibly you have a knighthood, but you definitely won;t be a baron) however all your social reactions will be as if you were a baron.

In CT I used to be very wary of allowing Barons or up - they have lots of duties to the imperium and can't really engage in "adventuring". Many of my knights and all of my barons had estates which they were responsible for and shouldn't really leave.

There are a limit to the number of times you can imperil their estate before belief wears thin (the normal hook to get a noble adventuring)

Of course, the game mechanics can change the way the universe runs, since characters can be rolled up with a soc of 18, it looks like I will have to change my universe
 
Originally posted by George Boyett:
There is a 2 point jump between each title on the Soc table. When a noble gets a promotion, do they go to the next title or Soc level
(ex. will baron get promote to soc 18 or soc 20?)
I would agree that while doing prior history, a Rank increase would increase SOC by 2. Looking over the DCs (which range from 18-23) for the promotion I would think this seems to keep this balanced.

Just my 2 Cr.
 
Originally posted by The Mink:
I'm against this. I would only allow soc gains at/above noble level if there is an ingame justification - and then I'd just give it to them rather than forcing them to allocate stat gains.
I was thinking mainly in prior history, where you could come up with an "in game" explanation after you decide you want to boost the stat.

This is pretty much in keeping with previous versions. High Guard included +1 Soc on the skills table for Command Officers and you could also get +1 Soc by being a Naval Attache or Aide. Mercenary had the same thing (actually even more generous); field grade officers could earn +1 Soc on the Army/Marine Life tables. Heck, even Scouts and Merchants had some chance to increase SOC.

I agree that there are interesting problems reconciling titles, actual behavior, and social reactions. Part of this is bound up in Charisma -- CHA includes adapting your behavior to the setting and circumstances. I'd also look to the player to roleplay any differences between their formal rank and their upbringing and behavior.

I'm more confortable with having nobles in games, but I'm also biased toward games where the PCs are formal troublshooters working for a more senior noble or some arm of the government, not just freelancing.
 
Has anyone ever experimented with the idea of dis-associating nobility titles from SOC directly? I agree it's difficult to do in prior history, but I could think of plenty of reasons for doing this:</font>
  • The character might be an heir-apparent; that is, he might hold the status of Knight, but taking the Rank bonuses means adding the SOC and him being "named" an heir to a Baron, Marquis, etc. The character would still be adventuring (expanding the family fortune, sowing wild oats, whatever), and may even get some of the advantages of the noble title, but doesn't "hold it" per se. He/she might, of course, have access to some of the same benefits: use of the family yacht, etc. Of course, during the course of the adventure, the father dies, and the heir has to return--and perhaps find the murderer on the staff...</font>
  • Another option might be that the character gains the SOC benefits, but a title is "denied" him by politics. There are plenty of stories of people who "should have been Knighted, but getting caught with the Duke's daughter..." This is a more problematic question, since it introduces very real complications into roleplaying the character.</font>
  • Something similar could be done with, say, naval characters who rise to SOC 15; they are obviously marked for Knighthood, but they still have to "do something" to earn it. Or, maybe you can add a Mustering Out benefit of "Service Knighthood" at a roll of 8, a one-time option available only to non-Noble characters with a SOC of 15+.</font>
Anyhow, just some ideas.
 
Interesting but it only works in the Imperium and among imperial humans.

Toss in Vargr and their charis...er... Prestige and it's a whole new layer of complication.

What if the Solomani are involved? They don't have titles they just get seats in the politburo.

etc...
 
I would think the second option--the person with the SOC to occupy a position but it not being granted due to local politics--might work in areas outside the Imperium.
 
IMTU I have to look at the TNE era where we (Me, myself, and me gamers) currently are. SOC is not always a Noble rank, but a matter of influence in the world/ system, etc. In a Pocket empire, without the former Imperial nobility, A high SOC equates to whose a big wheel there, and commands a certain amount of respect & authority/ pull what have you.
I have a PC whose rank is the equivalent of a Knight thanks to military decoration, an honorariam title, but prefers to be called professor since he holds his Masters Degree in personae at a higher level of worth than being called "Sir".
I allow him to keep his previous SOC-9 in parentheses for those who do not know/ or recognize his award (and he only wears the thing on Veteran's Day).
 
Hmmmm...I've used the concept of non-landed Nobles before. They could have a section of asteroid belt for their fief instead for their income.

I use these nobles for dandys or troubleshooters, or both.

They could be operating for the sector or subsector nobles. If you want to have fun, make 'em Imperial troubleshooters.

I used one of these as a patron for a campaign in the Spinward Marches. He was generated using TNE rules (but in the background that GT later picked). His background was first Imperial Navy (INI) and then the Dipolmatic Corps before retiring to tour the Marches in his custom Far Trader crewed by an odd mix of travellers.

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/RPG/SV/TRAV/trav.html
 
Originally posted by eclipse:
Hmmmm...I've used the concept of non-landed Nobles before.
Totally. This is even covered in CT canon. Knights almost NEVER got fiefs, and Marquis only rarly.
 
I see. you're saying someone could be Soc 16 and not be noble. They are as influential as any knight but not knighted.

or maybe somone is heir or cousin to a duke. they might be soc 18+ but are lowly 'knights' or maybe untitled. Worth considering.

I'd argue that it's unimportant though. A person with Soc 16+ I'd argue still moves in the circles of imperial society that would allow them to pursue a 'noble' prior history/core class.

by the same token, a person may retain their titles and honors but be a non-influential laughingstock. I'd buy that. Though In most cases I think the emperor would strip them of their titles.

Leave it as an RP option? you are this soc x so you can say you're this.

alternatively that allows players with low soc to say that they are Ex-nobles. (example, a pirate?)
 
Originally posted by Tom Schoene:
The way I read it, each Rank Promotion earned during the Noble Prior History should elevate the character to the next title up in precendece. That means a +2 to Social Standing. So a Baron (SOC 18) will go to Marquis (SOC 20). But as a referee I'd have to watch that vry closely. It's theoretically possible for a Knight to be promoted all the way to Emperor.

In betweem I'd let Nobles use their Ability increases to improve SOC by single steps, so that a SOC 19 charcter is a "senior" baron, for example. No real game mechanical effect, but they get more respect amongst the nobility than "regular" barons.
The way I've pretty much decided to run this (which might change given some actual 'in-game' playtesting) is to have each increase in SOC be a single-point increase, but let that indicate that the title is commuted to being a hereditary title, the character has become the heir-apparent for their parent's title (usually one level above the SOCial position rolled), or the character is granted membership in a noble order along the lines of the British Order of the Garter, etc. The choice of which to grant the character will be based on roleplaying through moments of the PCs Prior History, but I seriously doubt I'm going to allow any PC to advance more than one or two titled levels beyond what they rolled up; they'll get additional knighthoods and Orderial memberships instead. And NOONE will be going higher than Count/Margrave.

Related to this, how do people feel about allowing Ability Increases from levels gained to increase SOC above 15? I know the text on page 35 says you can't, but it seems natural for a naval oficer (for example) to be able to boost their SOC to 16 (Knight) while in service.
This would definitely have to be something roleplayed out, but it will probably result in admission to an Imperial Order or Imperial Service Organisation without actually resulting in being granted a noble title.

Let me explain: In the same fashion that old religious orders such as the Knights Templar had both noble (Knights-Banneret, or Banners) and non-noble (Lay Brothers, or Sergeants) members, I'm going to (and, in previous games, have) run Imperial Orders and Imperial Service Organisations as allowing both noble and non-noble membership. This can sometimes result in a non-noble PC being given preferential treatment over a noble PC or NPC where the former's membership in such an organization is known by the person reacting to the party. This can be very fun to game out, especially if the Noble, non-order-member is a hard rival of the PC party and they can make him suffer without incurring immediate retribution. :D

But I really doubt I'm going to allow any PC to just slide their way into nobility like this. I might make them famous, such as a rock star or actor, but it's definitely something to roleplay.

Addendum:
Another take on the two-step SOC ladder is to conside the lower step a local nobility, gained from the Planetary Count/Sector Duke for whatever reason, while the next step up indicates Imperial recognition. This could rationalize why a Knight (SOC 17) can wield considerably more influence than a Knight (SOC 16).

Simon Jester
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Originally posted by Garf:
I see. you're saying someone could be Soc 16 and not be noble. They are as influential as any knight but not knighted.
Think of it this way:

Daddy is a Sco 20 person (what is that, Count?). Daddy has 3 kids.

The first born would be Soc 19, the heir. He might be called the Vice-Count. The others would be Soc 18 (Marquis?).

So, Daddy holds the Fief and the Title. The kids hold lesser titles with no Fiefs. But they are still influential Imperial nobles. After all, they have Daddy's ear.

When Daddy dies, the heir gets +1 Soc, the Title and the Fief. He also has to support his younger sibs (can you say "remitance man?").
 
I was wondering about this topic and posted elsewhere and someone was nice enough to point me here. I like all the ideas here, particularly Simon Jester's ideas. I think I will try to put some of what I read here into action. As a side note, I have a link below that I found a while back that has some neat information on current age titled nobility etc. It seemed pretty informative all around on the topic of nobility, and how it worked. It seemed that the creator of the page had gone through a lot of work on the data concerning how it works. I hope I am not breaking any rules by posting a link, but here goes.

http://www.chinet.com/~laura/html/titles01.html

This might help with the nobility element in terms of adding a certain element of the real to a game.

Cheers
7thPawn
 
Addendum:
Another take on the two-step SOC ladder is to consider the lower step a local nobility, gained from the Planetary Count/Sector Duke for whatever reason, while the next step up indicates Imperial recognition. This could rationalize why a Knight (SOC 17) can wield considerably more influence than a Knight (SOC 16).
Gotta love it. I was thinking along the same lines. One is certainly noble, probably promoted by either the Birthday or Holiday lists or by someone lower than say an Imperial Marquis. They hold a title but no real duties or responsibilities other than what their job already has. IRL Sir Paul McCartney, Lord Andrew Lloyd Weber, Dame Margaret Thatcher.
Then there is the Hereditary Imperial Nobles, who hold Patents Noble from the Emperor.
You might find an example of a Baron from a Balkanized world where his fief is one valley with one coal mine of which he is the majority stock holder, absentee, and the manager votes his stock by proxy. Yet in the course of his life (and he was probably brought up TL8 middle class) he had a chance to go to a subsector Naval Academy. Serves his terms and is decorated in battle resulting in being "mentioned in dispatches" His fellow academy grads and officers know he is a petite noble on a back water, not a "real"
Imperial Noble. Again he is the very model of Hornblower and this time he comes to the attention of the Sector Duke or even the Archduke. Now he is sent forward to the Emperor’s list and about two years later receives an official letter by x-boat that says "Congratulations, Sir Dogsbody, and welcome to the order of the Cog and Crown, or order of the Star and Sword, 2nd order"
Now he is an Imperial Knight. Back home he is still the BARON, but to the rest of the travelling world, he is Sir Dogsbody, IOCC.
 
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