Noble/military Q&A

[plop101]

1)In the 5FFW game, they have one of the three Vargr Admirals serving as a mercenary for the Imperium. Does any one know, which of the Admirals that was, according to OTU history?

Just a note:
The three Vargr Admirals were named Thuekhs, Orzaekh, and Gvuengugnz.

2)In the TNS during the Fifth Frontier War, there are references to these guys:
Vice Marshall Lord Calavan, Commander, 43rd Army;
Vice Marshall Adam Lord Bryor.

A)What rank is a Vice Marshall exactly. Is that just another term for O10 General or is it supposed to be something special?

B)What is the context of the term 'Lord' in the OTU? I dug out the dictionary and, among other definitions it states that a) a lord is a son of a Marquis or Duke, b) a lord is another title for Baron, c) a title semiformally for any peer other than a Duke, d) a King, e) as part of the titles of certain high officials and dignitaries, such as
the Lord Mayor of London, the Lord Chancellor, the Lords of the Admiralty
f) a nominal title for a bishop.

Any thoughts on these subjects? GIVE ME YOUR BRAIN.

 

[Liam Devlin]

ANswer question A): Vice marshall (an O-9) 4 star general (army commander level). O-10 would be a five star/ commander of armies(plural)or Field Marshal(the German ranking version). In Navy terms, a Vice Admiral (VADM) equivalent rank.

Answer B): Lord in the CT/MT sense is a title below Baron, a fiefdom. Possibly the son of a Baron/ess or marquis/ess ( a Planetary sized fief/ several systems sized fief). Lady being the gender opposite. Soc-A in the CT/MT sense, a Knighthood equivalent. In T20 this will go upwards however.

at yer service,
Lord Liam devlin (SCA),
Traveller New Era Heretic in Chief

 

[WendellM]

Originally posted by plop101:
Does any one know, which of the Admirals that was, according to OTU history?

Since I was always a bit curious about who this "really" was (since it's random in the game), I did a Google search and discovered that Admiral Thuekhs may have negotiated a separate peace and may have withdrawn the (anti-Imperial, Vargr) Uthith Fleet from Regina subsector (Vilani & Vargr, p. 50 - Digest Group Publications, a "semi-official" source) http://www.pemaquidsolutions.com/library/u.htm. So, it wasn't him, per DGP's "semi-official" V&V source.

http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavworld/m1105/tas_news.htm states "Fleet Admiral Gvungughz[*] is a Vargr admiral who was hired by the Imperium to run the naval campaign at Efate" but there's no official source given, so this may very well just be speculation. *This is the spelling used on the back of the FFW counter, rather than "Gvuengugnz."

So, while the absolutely official word on the Imperial mercenary admiral seems to remain a random draw of the three Vargr Admirals per the FFW game, the unoffical, DGP, answer narrows it down to Orzaekh or Gvungughz, with a very slight, very unofficial leaning toward Gvungughz. This very unofficial arrangement sort of suggests that Admiral Orzaekh may have been commanding the ill-fated Vargr Gireel Fleet. If I were forced against a bulkhead with an FGMP-15 in my face, that's the Vargr admiral arrangement I'd suggest based on available evidence.

FWIW, there's a well-done chronology with helpful, well-considered notes at http://lists.travellercentral.com/pipermail/tml/2001-December/020959.html

That's all my brain has for you at this point

. Good luck in your search for "The Mystery of the Mercenary Vargr Admiral."

 

[Elliot]

Don't agree that in CT/MT/TNE or T20 that title Lord is below baron - no canon for that as I recall!

In English honorifics a baron is called Lord X when being addressed but the Magna Carta talks of 'Lords, Barons, Burgesses'.

Also historically a Lord is any feudal bigwig below the king who controls land and men for the King - so Count/Earl is Lord, Marquis is a Lord. Hence English kings would write to Earls (from the Nourse word 'Yarl' or Count) as 'my Lord of Warwick' or 'My lord of Kent'

As to Duke - it was a later title from the latin dux meaning 'Lord' or leader. For example Arthur of the Britons is called dux bellorum ('lord of war' or 'warlord') in his first mention in the 6th century Nennius.

In my opinion in the Imperium a Baron-Count has title Lord X, Baron of ... or Lord Y, Count Towers. etc. A Duke is His Grace, Duke of Harlequin.

 

[Rodina]

Lord is an honorific - not a title - the way one addresses the person holding the title, and also a way one explains what fief they hold.

George Calvert, Lord Baltimore - the fellow who founded Maryland - was a Baron, for instance, of an estate in Ireland called Baltimore.

Admiral Horatio Nelson was knighted in 1797 and was made a Viscount in 1801, although he is often called "Lord Nelson" or "Lord Admiral Nelson"

 

[Elliot]

Latin for lord is dominus - from where the word dominion comes from. A lord was always someone who had dominion over something such as people or land (which in Roman and English law from Bracton onwards was a concept associated with property).

The word Lord itself (according to the Oxford English Dictionary) comes from the Old English word 'hlafweard' which literally translate 'loaf (as in bread) Ward (as in keeper)' = a person who keeps of bread for others to eat. The English word 'larder' (a place where food is stored) is obviously related to this. The Old English word for servant was 'hlafeata' or 'loaf eater'

In the early English navy Lord Admiral was the title given to the commanding officer - Lord Admiral Blake, who commanded the English Republics navy against the Dutch was title Lord Admiral, but (if I remember correctly) was not ennobled until later. Oliver Cromwell was Lord General Cromwell but was never even knighted. He later declared himself Lord Protector. And Lord Nelson was not so-called until he became Viscount Nelson.

I think the conclusion is that after the collapse of true feudalism the whole aristocratic thing became a mess - as it seems to be in the Third Imperium!

 

[BMonnery]

Hi,

A "Lord" is any noble above a Baron, encompasing several ranks of nobility. It is literally someone to whom Barons (who directly rule the estates) pledge fealty, generally in the name of the King.

Above Lords would be Dukes, who would rule a province in the name of the King (for example: Connaught, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Northumberland, Cumberland, Lancaster, Yorkshire etc.)

For Traveller, a Lord would be any planetary ruler (Count, Marquis etc.), with Barons commanding provinces on planets or minor bodies, while Dukes rule subsectors (the senior Duke in a sector ruling the sector as well as their subsector, in a rotating arrangement). Lords would sit in the Moot, Barons not.

The problem of different government types rears its head, a Corporate Government, how do they send Lords to the Moot?

Bryn

 

[RandyT0001]

Originally posted by BMonnery:
Hi,

For Traveller, a Lord would be any planetary ruler (Count, Marquis etc.), with Barons commanding provinces on planets or minor bodies, while Dukes rule subsectors (the senior Duke in a sector ruling the sector as well as their subsector, in a rotating arrangement). Lords would sit in the Moot, Barons not.

The problem of different government types rears its head, a Corporate Government, how do they send Lords to the Moot?

Bryn

I don't think that the sector Duke is a position that rotates from subsector duke to subsector duke.

Corporate governments I think will easily mesh into the nobility of the 3I. The rail/robber barons of the 1800's, Getty and Getty oil, Rockefeller, the Hunts, Ken Lay of Enron, etc. basically live, in large mansions with chauffered limos, and behave, jetsetting around the world, being disdainful of those less wealthy than they, are as nobility in the US. Corporate America is full of wealthy corporate execs who act as barons, counts, etc. Most would jump at a chance to increase their prestige and influence with a title from the 3I.

IMO

 

[plop101]

Ok, Off to the next question.

3. What is the primary Intelligence agency in the Imperium?

I ask this because I've seen many, many posts decrying the IRIS posts, and I'm wondering why that is, what one would use in place of IRIS, what is canon and what isn't, etc.

If IRIS does'nt exist in your campaign, who runs things? INI? Scouts? Some other organization?

 

[plop101]

And another Question:

4. Does there exist UPP/stats/skills for Marc Hault-Oberlindes?

If so, where may this be found?

If not, speculate on what Marc Hault-Oberlindes would look like as a PC/NPC.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by plop101:
And another Question:

4. Does there exist UPP/stats/skills for Marc Hault-Oberlindes?

If so, where may this be found?

If not, speculate on what Marc Hault-Oberlindes would look like as a PC/NPC.

------------------------------------------
Marc hault-Oberlindes maybe found in BJTAS No 1. p4-5/ or JTAS 1 (1979) pp12-13 "Rescue on Ruie". From my examinationof my copy, his stats are not listed. neither are his sons Sergei Hault-Oberlindes. This is an amber zone mission adventure.(Break him out of jail/ and off the planet).

heretically yours,

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by plop101:
3. What is the primary Intelligence agency in the Imperium?

IMTU: there is no "primary" Intelligence agency. There are lots of agencies that do intelligence work, not all of which are official.

The Scouts are an intelligence agency. Of course, everyone knows this. Some of their operations are covert, but most aren't.

The INI does a lot of "military" (naval) intelligence work. This is probably the closest thing to a "cloak and dagger" agency.

The Army, Marines and so on do intelligence work in their fields.

The Ministry of Justice keeps an eye on things in their area.

Many nobles, planetary and subsector governments, megacorporations and so on maintain their own intelligence services.

There are various other organisations that indulge in this kind of thing.

Who actually puts all this stuff together into coherent reports: nobody.

There is probably a US-style "Secret Service" responsible for the personal safety of the Imperial family, but they aren't the kind of super-conspiracy IRIS was portrayed as.

Alan

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by plop101:
Ok, Off to the next question.

3. What is the primary Intelligence agency in the Imperium?

I ask this because I've seen many, many posts decrying the IRIS posts, and I'm wondering why that is, what one would use in place of IRIS, what is canon and what isn't, etc.

_________________________________________________
Hahaha. Heretically, IMTU (and maybe a silent few others), IRIS. Formerly known as IBIS (Imperial Bureau Intelligence Service)short lived by paranoia Press or some such (maybe even a Dragon Magazine articel once upon a time) circa the printing of SORAG by PP. Canon? It was in a Traveller series of stuff, and published under MT.
Who was at the helm to make it official can be quibbled till we're all greybeards.
What you choose to use IYTU is your bidness!
There are numerous Megacorp private Intelligence services (Oberlinde Lines, ie has some agents on staff/ the Vermene work for Tukera Lines,LIC., and so on). INI is Naval Intelligence in anyone's TU; the Scouts are seconded to the Navy in war time/ peacetime they're the exploratory arm.
Legally there's IMOJ as an Imperial version of Interpol (One can have undercover operatives from them as well-usually investigating criminal activities of an interstellar nature).

 

[Cleon the Mad]

Originally posted by plop101:
And another Question:

4. Does there exist UPP/stats/skills for Marc Hault-Oberlindes?

If so, where may this be found?

If not, speculate on what Marc Hault-Oberlindes would look like as a PC/NPC.

Didn't "The Traveller Adventure" campaign book for CT give stats for Marc Hault-Oberlindes? You know, the one where the PC's are the captain and crew of the Sub Merchant "The March Harrier"? There is much interaction with him at any rate within that one.

 

[GBoyett]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:

Originally posted by plop101:
Ok, Off to the next question.

3. What is the primary Intelligence agency in the Imperium?

I ask this because I've seen many, many posts decrying the IRIS posts, and I'm wondering why that is, what one would use in place of IRIS, what is canon and what isn't, etc.

_________________________________________________
Hahaha. Heretically, IMTU (and maybe a silent few others), IRIS. Formerly known as IBIS (Imperial Bureau Intelligence Service)short lived by paranoia Press or some such (maybe even a Dragon Magazine articel once upon a time) circa the printing of SORAG by PP. Canon? It was in a Traveller series of stuff, and published under MT.
Who was at the helm to make it official can be quibbled till we're all greybeards.
What you choose to use IYTU is your bidness!
There are numerous Megacorp private Intelligence services (Oberlinde Lines, ie has some agents on staff/ the Vermene work for Tukera Lines,LIC., and so on). INI is Naval Intelligence in anyone's TU; the Scouts are seconded to the Navy in war time/ peacetime they're the exploratory arm.
Legally there's IMOJ as an Imperial version of Interpol (One can have undercover operatives from them as well-usually investigating criminal activities of an interstellar nature).

The original version of the IBIS was an Intel agency that answered directly to the Emperor. The IRIS (d)evolved into a secret agency in charged with protecting the Imperial succession.

IMTU the Emperor is technically the Top Spymaster of the Imperium. He has the resources of the Imperial Military, IMOJ, Scouts, companies, and friends to access information.

Of course He does have the help of advisors and directors that oversee the details, but His word is final word.


**************
*Canon Debate*
**************


The big controversy stems from several point.
</font>

• The original version, the IBIS, was a non-canon article. It was the "eyes and ears" of the Emperor.</font>
• The "current" version, the IRIS, was from Challenge Magazine article. It's mission was to protect and define the Imperial Succession.A variant and option for groups.</font>
• Controversy stems from the question of it's breaking of canon regarding the Succession.</font>
• The IRIS is viewed as violating the Warrent of Restoration, that defined the Moot has authority over Succession.</font>
• The fact it appeared the Emperors did not know of the existence of the IRIS, based on Strephon's Journals.</font>

Hey I did warned you before reading this part.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Originally posted by George Boyett:

*************
*Canon Debate*
**************

The big controversy stems from several point.
</font>

• The original version, the IBIS, was a non-canon article. It was the "eyes and ears" of the Emperor.</font>
• The "current" version, the IRIS, was from Challenge Magazine article. It's mission was to protect and define the Imperial Succession.A variant and option for groups.</font>
• Controversy stems from the question of it's breaking of canon regarding the Succession.</font>
• The IRIS is viewed as violating the Warrent of Restoration, that defined the Moot has authority over Succession.</font>
• The fact it appeared the Emperors did not know of the existence of the IRIS, based on Strephon's Journals.</font>

Hey I did warned you before reading this part.

[/b]

_________________________________________________
And that gentlemen (and ladies!), is where GAB and I part ways (canon in house fighting/ patching up stuff the left hand did when the right hand was abasent, AWOL, or in the dark aside... ).
YMMV.

 

[Ellros]

Originally posted by Cleon the Mad:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by plop101:
And another Question:

4. Does there exist UPP/stats/skills for Marc Hault-Oberlindes?

If so, where may this be found?

If not, speculate on what Marc Hault-Oberlindes would look like as a PC/NPC.

Didn't "The Traveller Adventure" campaign book for CT give stats for Marc Hault-Oberlindes? You know, the one where the PC's are the captain and crew of the Sub Merchant "The March Harrier"? There is much interaction with him at any rate within that one.</font>[/QUOTE]None at all. I just searched through my copy, and while he plays a fair part, there are no stats at all listed.
I'd say he has high skills in trading and liasion, as well as diplomacy and high admin skill. High intelligence and education.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by George Boyett:

The big controversy stems from several point.
</font>

• The original version, the IBIS, was a non-canon article. It was the "eyes and ears" of the Emperor.</font>
• The "current" version, the IRIS, was from Challenge Magazine article. It's mission was to protect and define the Imperial Succession.A variant and option for groups.</font>
• Controversy stems from the question of it's breaking of canon regarding the Succession.</font>
• The IRIS is viewed as violating the Warrant of Restoration, that defined the Moot has authority over Succession.</font>
• The fact it appeared the Emperors did not know of the existence of the IRIS, based on Strephon's Journals.</font>

I hadn't heard the argument about a violation of the Warrant of Restoration before. I'm not sure it is such a big problem. IRIS was supposedly a secret organization, wasn't it? So any conflict with an 1100 year old document would be moot.
I believe the problem arose because, as you say, the IRIS article was specifically published as a variant. Then IRIS started showing up in canonical TNS newsbriefs. Bummer. The fact that Strephon didn't know about them isn't part of the problem, it is an extremely clever canon fix that reconciled the two canonical facts that a) IRIS didn't exist and b) IRIS was nevertheless mentioned several times in the TNS newsbriefs. By showing that Strephon had never heard of them, it became evident that they were the invention of an opportunistic intel wienie (We even find out who somewhere; he shows up as an advisor to Margaret in Arrival Vengeance, I think).

Hans

 

[Elliot]

Just to go back a secomd...

_____

The problem of different government types rears its head, a Corporate Government, how do they send Lords to the Moot?

Bryn
_____

It's not such a problem - can I take it that your from Liverpool in England?

Look at the English House of Lords - Lord Sainsbury is the man who started the supermarket chain, Viscount Rothchild is a banker = there are also many other 'captains of industry' who sit in the House of Lords as barons or viscounts.

So heads of megacorps are just appointed by the Emperor to the moot as in England.

 

[Elliot]

As an addition - I think that it would be good to mirror late medieval/early modern nobility distinctions in Traveller.

In Spain there was a distinction between 'nobles of the sword' and 'nobles of the robe'. The nobles of the sword were those charged with the feudal defence of the Empire, whereas the nobles of the robe were those who were awarded their titles due to good service and who held no feudal fiefdom (although they often had local power by reason of their own wealth and land holdings).

Likewise in England - Viscount is often a title given as a honorific - for example it is given to the most senior judges or to bankers and captains of industry. The holders of these titles get to choose the place of their title but have no feudal power over the place.

This would be a good fix to the problem of PC's with noble titles who want to adventure and leave their estates behind (get rid of all but modest estates and responsibilities and you have no call to stay in one place).