Noble Lands

[Spartan159]

So, I'm looking at the chart on pg 96. What size hexes are we talking here? If a character starts with Soc A B or C do they get income from these hexes from birth, age 18, end of character generation? For that matter how big is a hex in an asteroid belt?

The character I am working on is a second child of parents soc B, I read this to be starting Soc A, homeworld is Glisten/Glisten Spinward Marches, so he gets a rock somewhere in the belt as a birth gift/trust?

As a Noble gains land or an explorer makes discoveries during character generation, what happens to the income from these, hand-waved off until character generation is complete, noted down at the end of that term, randomly determined when during the term it was earned?

 

[Original_Carl]

So, I'm looking at the chart on pg 96. What size hexes are we talking here? If a character starts with Soc A B or C do they get income from these hexes from birth, age 18, end of character generation? For that matter how big is a hex in an asteroid belt?

1. Land grants are Terrain Hexes (pp.49 & 50, The Land Grant Speculation)
2. No. Land grants come from participation in the Noble and Scout careers.
3. Land grants are Terrain Hexes (6500 sq Km). If you get a grant in an asteroid belt, you'd get 6500 sq Km of asteroid(s). However, the way the table on pp 52 & 93 & 96 (same table) is written, I'd interpret the progression of the grant location as: 1. Homeworld, 2. Home System, 3. Home Subsector, 4. Home Sector, 5. Home Domain. That way your land grants aren't scattered too widely, and there seems to be a preference for worlds. Keep in mind the trade code preferences, too. If there are no Pre-Ag or Pre-Ri worlds available in your home system, for example, consider broadening the search location to the subsector.

The character I am working on is a second child of parents soc B, I read this to be starting Soc A, homeworld is Glisten/Glisten Spinward Marches, so he gets a rock somewhere in the belt as a birth gift/trust?

No. Land grants come from the Emperor. I've seen no mention of inheritance of land grants in the rules, and some text to lead me to believe that the only thing a child will inherit from her noble parents is a title. Your character inherited Soc A, allowing him to enter the Noble career and get a land grant, but he would not inherit land directly from his parents.

That said, the text on p.96 seems to contradict this for Discoverer Land Grants, and especially those grants outside the Imperium.

As a Noble gains land or an explorer makes discoveries during character generation, what happens to the income from these, hand-waved off until character generation is complete, noted down at the end of that term, randomly determined when during the term it was earned?

Good questions. See page 75 in the BBB under Land Grants, "Any character who has received a Land Grant retains it at Mustering Out." I've taken this to mean that the income from the lands does not begin until after career resolution is over, the character has mustered out and adventuring has begun.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Pretty much...

1. Land grants are Terrain Hexes (pp.49 & 50, The Land Grant Speculation)
2. No. Land grants come from participation in the Noble and Scout careers.
3. Land grants are Terrain Hexes (6500 sq Km). If you get a grant in an asteroid belt, you'd get 6500 sq Km of asteroid(s). However, the way the table on pp 52 & 93 & 96 (same table) is written, I'd interpret the progression of the grant location as: 1. Homeworld, 2. Home System, 3. Home Subsector, 4. Home Sector, 5. Home Domain. That way your land grants aren't scattered too widely, and there seems to be a preference for worlds. Keep in mind the trade code preferences, too. If there are no Pre-Ag or Pre-Ri worlds available in your home system, for example, consider broadening the search location to the subsector.



No. Land grants come from the Emperor. I've seen no mention of inheritance of land grants in the rules, and some text to lead me to believe that the only thing a child will inherit from her noble parents is a title. Your character inherited Soc A, allowing him to enter the Noble career and get a land grant, but he would not inherit land directly from his parents.

That said, the text on p.96 seems to contradict this for Discoverer Land Grants, and especially those grants outside the Imperium.



Good questions. See page 75 in the BBB under Land Grants, "Any character who has received a Land Grant retains it at Mustering Out." I've taken this to mean that the income from the lands does not begin until after career resolution is over, the character has mustered out and adventuring has begun.

You have it covered here, but I think that if the parents are Nobles (not merely Soc B Citizens) then you can inherit the personal Land Grant Local Hexes (65 Km², if I am doing it right) for sure, those are owned by the family once awarded, but they only get the Terrian Hexes if the take the Noble Career and are elevated to the Rank the Parent held.

 

[Original_Carl]

You have it covered here, but I think that if the parents are Nobles (not merely Soc B Citizens) then you can inherit the personal Land Grant Local Hexes (65 Km², if I am doing it right) for sure, those are owned by the family once awarded, but they only get the Terrian Hexes if the take the Noble Career and are elevated to the Rank the Parent held.

Good call, Magnus. I did not call out the personal estate or Local Hex that the grantee has outright ownership of. Again, this is on page 49 under "Outright Ownership."

I see no issue with inheriting the Local Hex portion of the grant.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Thanks.

Good call, Magnus. I did not call out the personal estate or Local Hex that the grantee has outright ownership of. Again, this is on page 49 under "Outright Ownership."

I see no issue with inheriting the Local Hex portion of the grant.

Good call nothing, I got to protect the Family Holdings now that I have some, much less my PC's. :devil:

 

[Reban]

No. Land grants come from the Emperor. I've seen no mention of inheritance of land grants in the rules, and some text to lead me to believe that the only thing a child will inherit from her noble parents is a title. Your character inherited Soc A, allowing him to enter the Noble career and get a land grant, but he would not inherit land directly from his parents.

That said, the text on p.96 seems to contradict this for Discoverer Land Grants, and especially those grants outside the Imperium.

Surely the Noble Land Grant is connected to the Noble Title? The child inheriting the title would gain the Noble Land Grant associated with the Noble Title. Could you point me to the text that makes you think the only thing the child will inherit is a title?

Good questions. See page 75 in the BBB under Land Grants, "Any character who has received a Land Grant retains it at Mustering Out." I've taken this to mean that the income from the lands does not begin until after career resolution is over, the character has mustered out and adventuring has begun.

I'm not so sure about this. You receive a Land Grant but it just sits there inert until you muster out? You become Lord of Somewhereville, you gain economic control of the hex and outright ownership of a portion but nothing changes for the residents and you gain no benefit until one day you retire and it suddenly begins generating income that never went anywhere before?

I'd rather handle it as when you receive your title and grant you gain the income. Maybe you have to appoint a steward to look after it but the rent should roll into your bank account. Being a Baron on a Naval officer's paycheck would really suck

 

[Spartan159]

Social B or higher citizens makes no sense to me, either you are a noble or you are social A. I could see any + social to a citizen or enlisted past Soc A being an extra "land grant", Bill Gates is not a noble but I'm sure he has plenty of land, but would still be Soc A. If you start differentiating citizen F from Duke F it gets way confusing.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Ah the paperwork.

You want to keep that kinda detail, then we can get into exactly how much was the Navy paying you while you were in the Service, Baron Greedee.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Grants v. Purchase.

Social B or higher citizens makes no sense to me, either you are a noble or you are social A. I could see any + social to a citizen or enlisted past Soc A being an extra "land grant", Bill Gates is not a noble but I'm sure he has plenty of land, but would still be Soc A. If you start differentiating citizen F from Duke F it gets way confusing.

It isn't at all confusing, the Duke has a Title, Duties, Priviliges and some land His Imperial Majesty gave him.

Citizen F has no Title, no Duties, a few Priviliges maybe, and must purchase what lands they own.

See easy. Also there are things like Household Troops, Liveried Staff and the Regalia (for the Duke that is).

 

[Spartan159]

I could be very well wrong but I was under the impression that Soc B+ was stated to be nobility. Either you are or you are not. If you can point me to where any mention of citizens with higher than A Soc lead on McDuff.

BTW the bottom of page 96 implies to me that Discoverer Land Grants are hereditary as well, else they would not "...have lain in safe deposit boxes for generations, waiting for the time when the world enters the Imperium."

Questing for knowledge here BTW, If I'm wrong about things then I'll take my flogging as needed.

 

[Murdoc]

I'm not so sure about this. You receive a Land Grant but it just sits there inert until you muster out? You become Lord of Somewhereville, you gain economic control of the hex and outright ownership of a portion but nothing changes for the residents and you gain no benefit until one day you retire and it suddenly begins generating income that never went anywhere before?

I think the idea is that we don't track money, income or spending, during prior careers, because there is no way to tell how much your character was spending in those days. It's not like you can say that they are saving every penny for when they go adventuring one day (even though that is what most players would want, I'm sure their characters wouldn't like it so much). Any attempt to figure it out would be arbitrary, and the player is biased. So the whole thing has been simplified to the rules covering Mustering Out, which not only represents things received at that time, but also whatever that character may have left over saved from previous years (hence why it's random).

Now, that's the way it's worked in previous versions (that I'm aware of). However, now we have the Rogue career, which seems to offer great deals of money during career resolution that I have to assume you get to keep, otherwise why mention the amount? Otherwise, it's not clarified either way.

 

[Original_Carl]

Social B or higher citizens makes no sense to me, either you are a noble or you are social A. I could see any + social to a citizen or enlisted past Soc A being an extra "land grant", Bill Gates is not a noble but I'm sure he has plenty of land, but would still be Soc A. If you start differentiating citizen F from Duke F it gets way confusing.

Noble is a career. Social Standing is your rank in society. Being a participant in the Noble career will gain you Social Standing. Having a high Social Standing will not gain you a Land Grant.

If you have a high Social Standing and have not participated in the Noble career, your title is an honorific.

Bill Gates has a lot of money. He may have a lot of land, too, but he does not have economic control (per p.49) over his land. He is not a noble. I think he'd fit the Rogue career better (due to that career's main focus being the acquisition of money).

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Two Pages.

I could be very well wrong but I was under the impression that Soc B+ was stated to be nobility. Either you are or you are not. If you can point me to where any mention of citizens with higher than A Soc lead on McDuff.

BTW the bottom of page 96 implies to me that Discoverer Land Grants are hereditary as well, else they would not "...have lain in safe deposit boxes for generations, waiting for the time when the world enters the Imperium."

Questing for knowledge here BTW, If I'm wrong about things then I'll take my flogging as needed.

Page 52 and Page 67 of the Traveller5 rules make it clear that there folks with high Soc and there Nobles.

I agree about Scout Discovery Grants are like personal Local Hexes are in fact hereditary.

 

[rancke]

Page 52 and Page 67 of the Traveller5 rules make it clear that there folks with high Soc and there Nobles.

Does it make clear what it is that makes you Soc 15 if you're not a noble?


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

In a word...

Does it make clear what it is that makes you Soc 15 if you're not a noble?


Hans

Page 67 does. It has to different tables, one with Social and on with Noblity. So, I would say clear enough that I rule that way as a Ref and work as a content producer.

 

[rancke]

Page 67 does. It has to different tables, one with Social and on with Noblity. So, I would say clear enough that I rule that way as a Ref and work as a content producer.

No, I mean what makes you Social 15 if you're not noble? When my player asks me what makes his character Soc 15 without being a noble, what do I tell him?


Hans

 

[HG_B]

No, I mean what makes you Social 15 if you're not noble?
Hans

How you hold your Little finger while sipping expensive Champagne? :rofl:

 

[rancke]

How you hold your Little finger while sipping expensive Champagne? :rofl:

Is that what the book says? I don't want to start a debate on the subject (here). I was asking if the T5 rulebook provided any information.


Hans

 

[Original_Carl]

Surely the Noble Land Grant is connected to the Noble Title? The child inheriting the title would gain the Noble Land Grant associated with the Noble Title. Could you point me to the text that makes you think the only thing the child will inherit is a title?

P.96 The Award of Land Grants
Land Grants are awarded by the Emperor to Nobles and to Explorer-Discoverers.
Nobles receive Lands as part of their Patent of Nobility. Explorers receive Land Grants in recognition of their discoveries.

P.116 Inheritance
Social Standing.
The children of parents with Social
Standing inherit a value one less than the highest Social
Standing held by the parents. Upon the death of the higher
(or highest) Social Standing parent, one child inherits that
parent’s Social Standing.

Inheritance of Money
Children routinely inherit the assets of their parents when the parents die. The details of inheritance are prescribed by local culture, law, and by the Referee.

So, monetary assets I can see allowing to inherit, but when I read the description of Land Grants, to me, they read more like the Emperor has entrusted you (you, not your offspring) with ruling and developing a chunk of a planet.

Also, the title of the rule is Inheritance of Money, not Inheritance of Land, and I would be reluctant to interpret "assets" in this case as anything other than money or perhaps physical property (like a starship or a weapon). You couldn't inherit a TAS membership, for example, but you could inherit a High Passage ticket.

Looks like potential errata to me.

 

[Spartan159]

All I see are 2 charts saying the same thing differently. I'm still not sold, I don't see social standing having (C) as different from C as different from c, I think Nobility is in fact the "upper upper" class or better.

I'll buy it being honorary meaning no proxy etc but if their Soc status is recognized as c on the TAS form then they are a Baronet, not a Baron or "Remarkable Citizen" I see nothing that tells me how I should state social standing as anything other than what is listed for the steps in nobility. At this point I'm not arguing honorary or land or power. /shrug