Noble Land Grant confusion

[david.wendelken]

Ok. I'm confused.

Noble Land Grants come with two types of hexes, Governmental Control and Full Ownership. Which of these types is the Governmental Control and which the Full Ownership?

Hex Type	Size
World	1000km
Terrain	100km
Local	10km
Individual	1km

Second, For each Governmental Control hex, is there a Full Ownership hex also? So if a grant is for 8 Governmental Control hexes, then are there also 8 Full Ownership hexes also?

 

[whulorigan]

Noble Land Grants come with two types of hexes, Governmental Control and Full Ownership. Which of these types is the Governmental Control and which the Full Ownership?

Hex Type	Size
World	1000km
Terrain	100km
Local	10km
Individual	1km

See p.49-50:

The Land Grant Speculation
.
.
.
The individual to whom the Land Grant is given is legally called the Holder. A Land Grant differs from ordinary ownership of land; it confers specific rights and privileges on its holder.

These rights include:

1) Economic Control over one Terrain Hex (6,500 square km) on a world and an associated income based on taxes and production. Economic Control is similar to governmental control: the ability (within reason) to create law and behavioral expectations; the ability to control who can occupy the land (and pay rent or taxes).

2) Outright Ownership of one Local Hex (approximately 65 square km= 6500 hectares= 16,000 acres).

3) A Title (Lord, Lady, or a local equivalent) reflecting possession of the land, and the accompanying responsibilities as the final authority to which locals may appeal for the righting of injustice (this authority may be locally delegated).

4) The Territory Itself. A land grant is a gift of real estateland and privileges-made by the government or other authority, to an individual as a reward, especially for service or accomplishment, or as an incentive to develop the land. The holder is granted a portion of the tax income from the land. Precisely how much is negotiated by the holder and the local authorities, and depends on investment by, and the influence of, the holder. In addition, the holder owns outright one Local Hex. Depending on the territory, the land may become the holder’s personal estate, be leased to create an industrial or governmental center, or exploited as a mine, farm, or ranch.

5) The Title. The holder of the Land Grant is accorded a title (independent of any noble titles): Lord (of <the territory>, Holder <Surname>, Master <Name>). For example, Lord of the South Coast, Lady of the Pantel, Holder Hironobu of Junidy, or the incomparable Dame Hurst of the North Steppe. Titles may vary according to local language or custom, or to refer to variant genders.

Subordinate Additional Territory Grants
For each Terrain Hex granted on the Mainworld in a system, the Holder is awarded a Terrain Hex on another world in the system. For example, the Holder may have an undeveloped Terrain Hex on a RadWorld within the system. At some point, technology may allow the exploitation of that territory, and there are incentives for the Holder to encourage development on non-mainworlds.

​

Second, For each Governmental Control hex, is there a Full Ownership hex also? So if a grant is for 8 Governmental Control hexes, then are there also 8 Full Ownership hexes also?

Correct.

 

[david.wendelken]

A Viscount has 31 mainworld terrain hexes and 31 non-mainworld terrain hexes.

That equates to economic control on mainworld of an area about the size of North Carolina and 3/4ths of South Carolina.

Ditto for non-mainworld economic control.

Full mainworld local hex ownership would be an area not quite 3 times the size of the city of Charlotte, NC. Ditto for non-mainworld ownership.

The mainworld taxable income for the Viscount, assuming a world with 1 trade classifications, would be 31 * 10,000 * 1, or CR 310,000.

I'll ignore the non-mainworld income for the moment.

I'll say this, those nobles sure as heck aren't sticking it to their tenants if that's all they're making off an area the size of North Carolina+!!!

 

[david.wendelken]

To put things in perspective, the basketball coach at Duke University makes $4.7 million and the NC governor makes $140,000.

 

[rancke]

These rights include:

1) Economic Control over one Terrain Hex (6,500 square km) on a world and an associated income based on taxes and production. Economic Control is similar to governmental control: the ability (within reason) to create law and behavioral expectations; the ability to control who can occupy the land (and pay rent or taxes).

2) Outright Ownership of one Local Hex (approximately 65 square km= 6500 hectares= 16,000 acres).

What the difference between the ability to control who can occupy the land and outright ownership?

A government's ability to tax the inhabitants of its teritory is unrelated the it's ability to control who owns the land. Although it can have both, in many cases it does not have the second. The owner of the land can sell it to someone else without the government having any say in it.


Hans

 

[rancke]

To put things in perspective, the basketball coach at Duke University makes $4.7 million and the NC governor makes $140,000.

The proper comparison would seem to be rulers of countries the size of North plus South Carolina. Assuming, of course, that the population is comparable. If our Lord of the Wilderness is only getting Cr310,000 in taxes, it would appear that the population is pretty small.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

What the difference between the ability to control who can occupy the land and outright ownership?

A government's ability to tax the inhabitants of its teritory is unrelated the it's ability to control who owns the land. Although it can have both, in many cases it does not have the second. The owner of the land can sell it to someone lese without the government having any say in it.

Hans

The outright ownership is of a local hex (65 km²), means that the Holder in question owns that plot as personal property that he can dispose of as he chooses. He can mortgage it, rent it out to others, invest in its development for personal profit, or otherwsie do with it as he sees fit. The land personally belongs to him. That part is clear to me.

The ability to control who can occupy the land under economic control of a terrain hex (6500 km²) is a little less clear to me. The terrian hex grant is not personal property, but is territory over which the landholder in question has a degree of governmental/economic authority. As to controlling who can occupy that land (which does not belong to him), I am not quite sure of the full extent of the intent. I am going to guess that the difference lies in the statement: " ... to control who can occupy the land ... ". A governmental authority can post zoning or other regulations as to who can and cannot occupy a given territory, or what can be done on said territoy by property owners, without said governmental authority themselves owning the land itself.

 

[rancke]

The outright ownership is of a local hex (65 km²), means that the Holder in question owns that plot as personal property that he can dispose of as he chooses. He can mortgage it, rent it out to others, invest in its development for personal profit, or otherwsie do with it as he sees fit. The land personally belongs to him. That part is clear to me.

To me too. I'm pretty clear on what outright ownership involves. It's the meaning of 'economic control' that puzzles me, or rather just what the difference is.


Hans

 

[david.wendelken]

The proper comparison would seem to be rulers of countries the size of North plus South Carolina. Assuming, of course, that the population is comparable. If our Lord of the Wilderness is only getting Cr310,000 in taxes, it would appear that the population is pretty small.


Hans

The amount of money in the formulas from the book is only indirectly tied to population. (Population is one of many factors that determine which trade classifications a planet has.)

If a planet had zero trade classifications, the grant income in the example would be CR 155,000.

# TC	Income/Hex
0	5,000
1	10,000
2	20,000
3	30,000
4	40,000
5	50,000

 

[rancke]

The amount of money in the formulas from the book is only indirectly tied to population. (Population is one of many factors that determine which trade classifications a planet has.)

If a planet had zero trade classifications, the grant income in the example would be CR 155,000.

My statement was an inference. If you have the authority to tax everyone living in an area the size of two American states and only get a personal share of said taxes amounting to roughly half a million dollars, you're not doing as well out of it as one might expect. North Carolina has a population of 10 million. If our hypothetical fiefdom has a similar population, you're taxing them a nickle apiece (Or 1.5 centicredit, if you prefer). One possible explanation would be that there aren't that many people to tax.

(And, yes, I realize that the nickle is the share of the taxes that makes it into the lord's personal coffers; it's not how much the population is taxed for the upkeep of all government functions).

Anyway, there's a puzzling discrepancy between the authority as Lord of The Land and the benefit the lord reaps from that authority. And that's before looking at the income from the land that is owned outright.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

To me too. I'm pretty clear on what outright ownership involves. It's the meaning of 'economic control' that puzzles me, or rather just what the difference is.

Think of it this way. The outright ownership part is your vicountry estate. It is where you keep your castle/mansion/hunting lodge/offices.

The "economic control" is the local villages and towns and farms around your estate that are under your vicountery protection. If there is a dragon, or a vargr attack, they are going to come running to you to fight it off. If the police have not caught the kissing bandit that is plaguing Memorial Park after sundown, they are going to complain to you. And if Colonist Fred wants to start up a business, build a new factory, inside your ECZ, he is going to come talking to you first, (and pay the appropriate fees for the vicount's charter)

Then there is the rest of the planet. While you may not be part of planetary government, you can be a force in local politics, if you desire. At the very least, you are still the systems' representative to the 3rd Imperium and the Moot. Inside your ECZ, you are Lord of the Manor. Outside, you are just another Imperial Noble.

And remember, this is just your paycheck for being the Lord of the Manor and Imperial Representative for the system(s)

 

[david.wendelken]

Now, if that income is net income after paying for the fancy estate, fancy estate staff, administrative staff to help with the governing job, a couple of yachts or three, a platoon to regiment-sized unit of huscarles and their modern gear, etc., okey-dokey.

 

[rancke]

Think of it this way. The outright ownership part is your vicountry estate. It is where you keep your castle/mansion/hunting lodge/offices.

And the lands I rent out to tenants and get an income from comparable to what landowners usually get in rent from their tenants? Which is, you know, a good deal more than a nickle per tenant.

The "economic control" is the local villages and towns and farms around your estate that are under your vicountery protection. If there is a dragon, or a vargr attack, they are going to come running to you to fight it off. If the police have not caught the kissing bandit that is plaguing Memorial Park after sundown, they are going to complain to you. And if Colonist Fred wants to start up a business, build a new factory, inside your ECZ, he is going to come talking to you first, (and pay the appropriate fees for the vicount's charter)

So I'm running a command economy the size of a medium-sized country?

And remember, this is just your paycheck for being the Lord of the Manor and Imperial Representative for the system(s)

So when I apply my player ingenuity to the task, I can get a lot more funds out of my fief than just those couple of millions? Something comparable to the private funds kings used to get out of their kingdoms?


Hans

 

[Drakon]

And the lands I rent out to tenants and get an income from comparable to what landowners usually get in rent from their tenants? Which is, you know, a good deal more than a nickle per tenant.

Well remember that even though locally you may have a command economy, sophonts will vote with their feet. There are still free market forces in effect that will limit how much you can make in rentals. Location will be key.

Besides, your personal estates are a mere 10 kilometers in diameter. Tenants would make things a bit crowded

So I'm running a command economy the size of a medium-sized country?

First off, obviously you don't sully your hands with such affairs, you have a staff to take care of things. Some with economic expertese to keep things from going off the rails.

Second, it is very important to remember that government does not create. Government cannot give you a paycheck. They have to collect that money from taxpayers, the governed, to hand out to you, the government. Tax rates or regulations get too high, that will hurt your bottom line as much as theirs.

So while in theory, you may have the power to tax the snot out of your subjects, there are consequences to such tyranny, that can include losing population, losing productivity, being declared a red zone, or Imperial replacement.

So when I apply my player ingenuity to the task, I can get a lot more funds out of my fief than just those couple of millions? Something comparable to the private funds kings used to get out of their kingdoms?

This will require some economic modeling and rules expansions. And is a fasinating question in itself. There is a whole Laffer curve effect that should be modeled. It seems to me that the economic extentions would come into play here, and how those would change with various policies, law, tech and population levels.

Cultural extensions may as well, however it seems kind of abstract to me. Culture will play a part in how much the taxpayers will put up with, how they view the Lord of the Manor, etc.

It seems to me that something can be worked out, to model how your planets/fiefs respond to your schemes to increase your paycheck. There is a big danger in unbalancing the game, giving a local knight way too much cash, but I think it can be realistically modeled.

Also, we are talking about

net income after paying for the fancy estate, fancy estate staff, administrative staff to help with the governing job, a couple of yachts or three, a platoon to regiment-sized unit of huscarles and their modern gear, etc.,

The money is only one aspect of the Imperial nobility. (I do not know about more than one yatch, I suspect you will have to pay for the second yatch yourself. Multiple "couriers" however, are another story.)

It is quite possible that the Emperior has decreed limits to how much his nobles can milk their fiefdoms. Perhaps the Imperial bureaucracy keeps a tab on the economics of the 11,000 worlds, and targets greedy nobles for examination or replacement. I do at least hope that a sense of noblese oblege prevails.

The only in game way I see in increasing your noble paycheck is to increase the number of Trade Codes. At least at present. There has got to be a way to game this, to work out a set of rules that can model this situation.

 

[Draconian]

That equates to economic control on mainworld of an area about the size of North Carolina and 3/4ths of South Carolina.

Ditto for non-mainworld economic control.

Full mainworld local hex ownership would be an area not quite 3 times the size of the city of Charlotte, NC. Ditto for non-mainworld ownership.

This mystical land of the Carolinas intrigues me. Is there going to be a campaign setting for it soon? I would wonder who the patrons are. Seems you could get more money doing a job for the evil Basketball Coach than for the Governor. :rofl:

 

[rancke]

This mystical land of the Carolinas intrigues me. Is there going to be a campaign setting for it soon? I would wonder who the patrons are. Seems you could get more money doing a job for the evil Basketball Coach than for the Governor. :rofl:

If you check your Encyclopedia Galactica or your ABB or whatever library data program you use, you'll find that North and South Carolina are administrative regions in the North American continent on Terra. Historically they used to be semi-automomous states in a federation.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Well remember that even though locally you may have a command economy, sophonts will vote with their feet. There are still free market forces in effect that will limit how much you can make in rentals. Location will be key.

Which is why I've alluded to the sort of "private" income monarchs have historically been able to extract from their subjects without imposing any unusual hardship on them. Which I believe tended to amount to more than a nickle per subject.

Besides, your personal estates are a mere 10 kilometers in diameter. Tenants would make things a bit crowded

I was extrapolating from the example David posted earlier in the thread where the noble in question got 31 times as much. Since income is, as I understand it, calculated on a per hex basis, the difference is moot.

First off, obviously you don't sully your hands with such affairs, you have a staff to take care of things. Some with economic expertise to keep things from going off the rails.

Obviously, since I'm off gallivanting with my adventurer peers. But I should still get more money than indicated out of my personal estates. After all, the only difference between running it myself and having someone do it for me would be one estate manager's salary.

Second, it is very important to remember that government does not create. Government cannot give you a paycheck. They have to collect that money from taxpayers, the governed, to hand out to you, the government. Tax rates or regulations get too high, that will hurt your bottom line as much as theirs.

Government does not create wealth, true. But the people government taxes create wealth, so the point is moot.

So while in theory, you may have the power to tax the snot out of your subjects, there are consequences to such tyranny, that can include losing population, losing productivity, being declared a red zone, or Imperial replacement.

I doubt the consequences of mismanagement would be quite that dire, but it's another moot point, because I deliberately suggested comparisons to a generic kingdom, the kind that is not being mismanaged.

Also, we are talking about The money is only one aspect of the Imperial nobility. (I do not know about more than one yatch, I suspect you will have to pay for the second yatch yourself. Multiple "couriers" however, are another story.)

You know, when I read the bit about two or three yachts, I thought about seagoing yachts; didn't give starship yachts a thought. I thought something like "Hey, if I have three yachts that I never use I could sell one of them. That would give me a million credits up front and a permanent saving of the crew's salaries." And while a clever referee could get around that ("Your yachts are entailed and your father's will require you to keep them manned at all times. Yes, everything else you own except for what is on your equipment sheet is entailed too. Yes, even you diamond cufflinks, your golf clubs, your hunting rifles, and your fishing tackle), it might strain my willing suspension of disbelief just a tad.

It is quite possible that the Emperior has decreed limits to how much his nobles can milk their fiefdoms. Perhaps the Imperial bureaucracy keeps a tab on the economics of the 11,000 worlds, and targets greedy nobles for examination or replacement. I do at least hope that a sense of noblese oblige prevails.

The point I've been belaboring is that I don't think that 1.5 centicred per subject is the upper limit for what an overlord can extract from his country without causing detrimental economic consequences, insurrection, plague, bad weather, and loose morals.

The only in game way I see in increasing your noble paycheck is to increase the number of Trade Codes. At least at present. There has got to be a way to game this, to work out a set of rules that can model this situation.

There's another way. Play with a referee that is willing to let common sense trumph game rules.

Incidentally, I'm not really all that concerned about the game effects. I'm fine with player characters that don't have the disposable income of rulers of average countries. What annoys me is the worldbuilding ramifications of rulers of average countries that don't have the disposable income of rulers of average countries.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

Government does not create wealth, true. But the people government taxes create wealth, so the point is moot.

The point is not moot. How much the government taxes its subjects, or regulates its behaviour, determines how much a bottleneck that government becomes to that productivity. Tax rates affect productivity. Tax rates affect the willingness of entrepreneurs to risk their money on new ideas, or invest in growing productivity.

Also, remember that if you have time to go adventuring, you're probably not attending to anything that would be worth higher pay. You believe the rate before mismanagement is higher than a nickle per subject. But if all your subjects are getting is a vicount who out adventuring, perhaps that is all the job is worth.

("Your yachts are entailed and your father's will require you to keep them manned at all times. Yes, everything else you own except for what is on your equipment sheet is entailed too. Yes, even you diamond cufflinks, your golf clubs, your hunting rifles, and your fishing tackle), it might strain my willing suspension of disbelief just a tad.

Just a bit? This is a valid point. But don't you have the same problem if you inherited 3 yatchs from the previous vicount?

The point I've been belaboring is that I don't think that 1.5 centicred per subject is the upper limit for what an overlord can extract from his country without causing detrimental economic consequences, insurrection, plague, bad weather, and loose morals.

First off, its by land area and trade code, not necessarily population. Slath has a population of 300 on the whole planet, and the fief there generates the same paycheck per hex as the barony on Lemish, which has 1 million people on that planet.

Second, I am not so sure. Are you subjects getting their 1.5 centicred's worth of effort on your part? Are you doing something that is creating or helping create an equivalent amount of wealth, or increase in the GDP?

Third, it seems possible to change the trade codes of your specific vicountery hexes, and thereby boosting your paycheck. The baroness has been talking about adding some kind of Tyranasaurus (or equivalent,) ranch, to our lands on Lemish, both as a tourist attraction, as well as a source of meat and leather for sale and export.

Incidentally, I'm not really all that concerned about the game effects. I'm fine with player characters that don't have the disposable income of rulers of average countries. What annoys me is the worldbuilding ramifications of rulers of average countries that don't have the disposable income of rulers of average countries.

You are worried that because your hexes are not generating the level of income you require, you will be unable to invest that wealth in improving the infrastructure of your lands? I think there is a way work out the actual government budget, consistent with the law and government levels, but may require a level of detail not available in the rules yet.

What would you consider an alternative rules to compute your vicountery paycheck?

 

[rancke]

The point is not moot. How much the government taxes its subjects, or regulates its behaviour, determines how much a bottleneck that government becomes to that productivity. Tax rates affect productivity. Tax rates affect the willingness of entrepreneurs to risk their money on new ideas, or invest in growing productivity.

But unless the land is almost devoid of population, the taxes that go to the private account of the Lord of the Land is far far far too little to affect productivity at all.

Also, remember that if you have time to go adventuring, you're probably not attending to anything that would be worth higher pay. You believe the rate before mismanagement is higher than a nickle per subject. But if all your subjects are getting is a vicount who out adventuring, perhaps that is all the job is worth.

It's not about what a sovereign population would be willing to pay someone to be the ceremonial head of their country (Which, BTW, present-day constitutional monarchies demonstrate would be a good deal more than the sums indicated by the rules). It's about what sums someone with 'economic control' of a country would be able to extract from his population without provoking detrimental economic consequences.

Just a bit? This is a valid point. But don't you have the same problem if you inherited 3 yatchs from the previous vicount?

If the viscount is more or less the equivalent of the ruler of a country, I see no problem with him having three (seagoing) yachts. Why not? He would certainly have been able to afford them.

First off, its by land area and trade code, not necessarily population.

As I acknowledged in previous posts.

Slath has a population of 300 on the whole planet, and the fief there generates the same paycheck per hex as the barony on Lemish, which has 1 million people on that planet.

That doesn't eaxctly improve the verisimilitude of the rule, does it?

Second, I am not so sure. Are you subjects getting their 1.5 centicred's worth of effort on your part? Are you doing something that is creating or helping create an equivalent amount of wealth, or increase in the GDP?

Why should I? I could do something in return for my money, but there are plenty of rulers in history that did nothing but spend their income prodigally.

Third, it seems possible to change the trade codes of your specific vicountery hexes, and thereby boosting your paycheck.

But I'm not talking about improving my income according to what options the rules give me. I'm talking about realizing that my income shouldf have been a lot higher than what the rules provide.

You are worried that because your hexes are not generating the level of income you require, you will be unable to invest that wealth in improving the infrastructure of your lands?

"I'm fine with player characters that don't have the disposable income of rulers of average countries. What annoys me is the worldbuilding ramifications of rulers of average countries that don't have the disposable income of rulers of average countries. "​

I think there is a way work out the actual government budget, consistent with the law and government levels, but may require a level of detail not available in the rules yet.

The income is available in the rules. I just think the rules are blatantly wrong.

What would you consider an alternative rules to compute your vicountery paycheck?

Figure out a plausible percentage of GWP for a region's ruler's personal income (adjusted for various circumstances), then figure out the GWP for the viscountcy and apply the percentage. Oh, and do the same for owned lands.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

Why should I? I could do something in return for my money, but there are plenty of rulers in history that did nothing but spend their income prodigally.

This is a big reason why you can't. Yes history is full of useless layabout rentseeking tyrants milking their populations, and many of those tyrants got guillotined, shot, hung and in other manners, lost their jobs. You may not think you are being a rapacious lord, but from the other end of the purse strings, things look different.

"I'm fine with player characters that don't have the disposable income of rulers of average countries. What annoys me is the worldbuilding ramifications of rulers of average countries that don't have the disposable income of rulers of average countries. "​

So wait, are you looking to play as system governor and actually working out the planetary budgets? Or are you still planning to leave everything to the seneschal, and go adventuring? I don't find the "Augustus St. Cloud and his Technicolor Imperial Express Card" characters that enjoyable. YMMV

If you are trying to work out a planetary budget, off the top of my head the trade codes, and planet size, would be key factors in working out GWP. You would probably have to factor in government type. The higher the government level means higher overhead, more expense.

The income is available in the rules. I just think the rules are blatantly wrong.

This is a big stretch. The rules appear to be for PC characters who are out adventuring instead of staying home and attending to affairs of state. It is intended to model an annual paycheck, and that is all.

While there are game balance issues involved, the rules are not "blatantly wrong". The cash is not as much as some of the despots of earth history obtained, but then the rise of the middle class ruined the aristocracy's stranglehold on wealth with the Industrial Revolution. (Indeed, I have long suspected that the son in law of the Baron of Westphalia was seeking to re-establish the fortunes of the nobility when he wrote his books.)