No release date yet?

[Reg Redblade]

I originally didn't like GURPS Traveller whatsover. I remember picking up the Hardcover when it was released and being very disappointed iwth it - the writing was poor and it seemed to be more catered towards the existing Traveller fan base then introducing new players ( I took particular exception to the replication of all the library data and treatment of some of the big secrets - I mean should an introductory text even need to mention Longbow II ? )

The GT 3rd Edition books varied widely as well - Some I found excellent ( Swords Worlds - though the writing was sometimes overly colloqial, the majority of the Aliens Books - though Hmaniti was a wasted opportunity ) whilst I found a couple of them very disappointing - Nobles and Starports in particular I found very bland.

I think Rim of Fire was the best - full of inspiration and useful ideas and it persuaded me to begin a new campaign in the Solomani Rim.

As far as GT 4th Ed is concerned I bought IW when it came out and was very impressed with both the writing and the production values. I have never been a huge fan of the IW era but I would probably look at anything they put out.

But that brings us to the central question which has been asked here and elsewhere - is SJG planning on doing anything else with Traveller ? It makes a certain amount of sense for them to work away on the IW period while Mongoose fills out the classic era and the licence universes.

From what I can see - GURPS is unlikely to bring in entirely new players to Traveller - only those who already GURPS players. A Mongoose Traveller book however - done right - will look pretty good sitting on the shelf with the other Mongoose publications and could entice newcomers.

RR

 

[aramis]

The worst sabotage is oft the inept attempts to help of the well meaning....

 

[hunter]

In any case, it shows that MWM is already, before words of RTT are on paper, sabatoging Mongoose's efforts to consolidate the fan base.

How exactly is he sabotaging their efforts if these are things they agreed to when they accepted the license from him?

I doubt MWM will be pulling the PDF's, either, of MT, TNE, or T4...

Why should he? I see WotC selling the old AD&D and Basic D&D PDFs. Hell Mongoose is selling their own older material via PDF.

 

[mad13142000]

But Aramis, The coolness of having THAT much detail in GT is so a GM can pick and choose which bits to include in the campaign. Not all of us like having to design every closet on the Spacestation, and sure enough those pesky PC's are going to open the one you never thought they would. It's nice to have a readymade pile of useless trivia to grab than having to think about it till next week's game...

We are constantly detailing out our own little niches of the OTU so others who may travel after us can enjoy the sights rather than have to listen to mass rolling of dice and the GM 'err...'-ing for 20 minutes. I believe it to be Traveller's greatest strength over competing Sci-Fi systems.

(Granted if you were the developer it might get annoying and must suck when you're sitting at the Con with the other developers talking about how they have 27 sourcebooks detailing every race and sector and starship to be found while you have to acknowledge that your universe was taken over by rabid fans...)

I think I've spent as much on non-Traveller stuff to support my Traveller Universe than I did on the LBBs several times over. If Marc wants to release T5, I'll add it to the collection along with Mongoose's. Just more crunchy bits to add to the feeling of really being in the Imperium. There has to be a reason why so many other Sci-Fi RPG's SOUND so like Traveller....

-MADDog

 

[MJD]

Up until recently I tended not to say anything about T5, but some of my attitides have shifted lately. Y'see I didn't really have anything good to say except 'you know, despite all T4 was a decent game and I liked it. It could be the basis of a good rules set'. Faint praise and all, so I didn't say anything since there probably would not be anything positive except that.

Well, this is just my opinion but I lost interest in T5 years ago. Not just because I'm pretty sure it will never actually appear but because Marc sent me some early elements of the game YEARS ago. I spent a fair bit of time on looking and commenting on them, and even offered to work up some sections 'just for fun'.

Marc never showed any sign of having even read my suggestions.

Oh, and there was the fact that T5 as it was headed then, with tables for creating rules for making rules to create tables to define the sensory apparatus of the alien race you're working on, etc ad infinitum, was not what I was looking for from a game.

"Roll two dice. Blow stuff up." is more my thing.

As far as I can see, T5 is highly unlikely to appear and in any case what appears will be rather more 'complete' than 'playable'.

As an aside, this attitude shift on my part is nothing to do with ACT.

 

[MJD]

To clairfy that, I lost interest in T5 round about the time Marc sent me elements of it, inviting comment, then never responded to my comments or even indicated he'd read them.

My time costs money.
I gave some for free, and got ignored for my trouble.
I find that discourteous.

You may correctly infer that my comments were not of the 'gee that's awesome' kind, but they were constructive and I took time out of other work to make them because Marc seemed to want me to.

Perhaps I made an 'incorrect' response.
Maybe I should learn to be more sycophantic.

Either way, this isn't a good way to treat people nor to develop a game. My impression is that Marc is trying to create his ideal, perfect version of Traveller as it was intended to be in 1977. Tables for everything.

I'm too apathetic to type any more about this.

 

[flykiller]

I hope Marc listens to us, but he's never gonna please everyone.

(laugh) could anyone?

In the end, Traveller is whatever Marc says it is.

(shrug) in the end, traveller happens in a game, and the referee says what it is.

 

[flyteach]

FWIW, it seems to me that the outline for T5 is describing a document that's detailed enough to computerize. Seems like there would be enough detailed rules. If so, it's the realization of a dream I've had ever since I started coding character generators on my Commodore 64 22 years ago.

Fingers crossed......

Jim

 

[MJD]

Yes, that's pretty much the problem...

 

[Spinward Scout]

Are you talking a computer game? Or computer character generation?

 

[robject]

Are you talking a computer game? Or computer character generation?

He's talking about the whole thing being unified at the lowest playable levels of detail. That results in (1) enough detail to code consistently, and (2) new rules that are taken for granted in CT.

Sort of like how HERO works, or EABA, in a way, except perhaps more Traveller-specific, less completely general-purpose on the HERO end, and less fiddly with numbers on the EABA end.

The effect is that the referee gets more 'tools' to use or not, and that those tools are designed to sort of work together. For examples, the same mechanic that defines how sensors work can be applied to how senses work; the same mechanic that defines how robot brains work is applied to how starship computers work.

 

[flyteach]

Martin,

I don't understand what the "problem" is? Can you be more specific?

Jim

 

[flyteach]

Yes, both. Chargen is just one aspect and is not that difficult to code. But the rest of the "preview" suggests to me that other aspects of the game are being so stringently defined that coding up something like Neverwinter nights or an MMU is possible.

Jim

 

[robject]

Martin,

I don't understand what the "problem" is? Can you be more specific?

Jim

T5 is more complex than CT. Complexity means it will be slower to learn, errata is more probable, the referee won't get his "sea legs" quite as fast. Using a "tools" approach (i.e. push the extra work into preparation rules) this can be minimized. But, if you've now got lots of things which can affect a task roll, and you have to keep them all in your head, that could result in a headache, and you'd be asking yourself "aren't we here to have FUN?".

Many referees prefer to keep things simple, and adjudicate situations on the fly. Consulting tables or rulebooks kills a game.

There's also a greater chance for promoting munchkinism. If your players tend to game the system rather than roleplay, then you have to be careful with the rules of whatever game you're running.

 

[Supplement Four]

Many referees prefer to keep things simple, and adjudicate situations on the fly. Consulting tables or rulebooks kills a game.

There's also a greater chance for promoting munchkinism. If your players tend to game the system rather than roleplay, then you have to be careful with the rules of whatever game you're running.

Well said, my friend. Bravo.

 

[flyteach]

Hmmmm, ok, I understand the comment now, but I think it reinforces my comment. Maybe that's why there's gonna be 2 versions of the same game.

It would be nice to have something on the scale of Neverwinter Nights for Traveller. Let the computer be the ref.....it doesn't care how many rules there are as long as it covers the desired or allowed situtation.

I hope there's a place (and potential) for both.

Jim

 

[robject]

Well said, my friend. Bravo.

There are good referees who need more structure. More comprehensive rules are helpful to them.

But, referees who don't want a lot of structure won't sift through a lot of rules. Pre-sifted, yes. Unsifted, no.

This really reminds me of the common starships discussion, which has been going on for decades perhaps. Starship design in Traveller is often thought of as a layered approach, where you've got something like Book 2 at the simplest level: it's easy to use, only takes up a couple of pages, and creates playable ships for most situations. The concept is that, when you want more detail for a particular component, you consult the components catalog, which has lists of pre-fab equipment you can swap into your simple design. And if you need more detail than that, you consult the engineer's manual, which tells you how to design the component according to your needs.

T5's rules should be like that. Maybe MonTra + T5 should be like that.

 

[MJD]

The 'problem' is this obsession with super-uber-detailing everything like the game designers were programming a computer (the Referee).

A table for everything, and everything is on a table.
Rules for creating rules for creating tables to determine every single detail of everything everywhere.

(Sigh).

T5 is being created like a massive piece of software, and it'll never be quite right. So it'll never be published. And even if it did appear, the only people who'd make use of it would be solo-players of various sorts.

If I want solo play I have a computer. For an FTF game I want fast-and-fun, not the ability to sit for a week with my dice and randomly create everything on a planet down to the potted plants.

 

[aramis]

The Problem, Robject, is that the level of detail needed is somewhere between CT and MT for the majority of GM's.


Once you get above that level of detail, player bases drop radically.

Ever play Phoenix Command, Rhand, or Aliens? Hyper-detailed. Makes MT look table-light. Player base: practically nil. They made some money at it....

Star Wars d6, however, loads of players. Fast, light, loads of Usable details that didn't need lots of tables to use.

Do I need the frequency sets used by the 3I? no!

The more details one generates, the more likely a ref is to reject canon...

likewise, I don't want a detailed design system that I can't figure out if I've done it correctly without peer review! Remember, in 1995 and 1996, the TML was quite heavily filled with peer-reviewing ship designs.... and even the best had multiple errors.

 

[robject]

likewise, I don't want a detailed design system that I can't figure out if I've done it correctly without peer review! Remember, in 1995 and 1996, the TML was quite heavily filled with peer-reviewing ship designs.... and even the best had multiple errors.

Wil, I SO agree. When a system guarantees errors, then I start to suspect the system is mis-directed.