hunter
Ancient - Absent Friend
You have no fault to accept IMO. All you were doing was trying to help and you just got stuck between Marc and some of the more rabid fan base. Trust me I know the feeling
No release date yet?
- Thread starter The Thing
- Start date
You have no fault to accept IMO. All you were doing was trying to help and you just got stuck between Marc and some of the more rabid fan base. Trust me I know the feeling
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Which was a crying shame, because I really wanted to wring out what he was going to publish. I really liked the random race generation rules, and helped him tweak those a bit. And, I made a point of stating my disagreement with certain bits, but that it was Marc's game to publish as he saw fit.
(And, yes, I sorta dropped out for a while - I couldn't access CotI as often, and there wasn't any chargen (my favorite bit) for me to bang on.
)
Dated 8-6-07 and recieved on 8-7-07 from the pen of Marc himself, I give you this snippet from an E-Mail PDF on T5:
"We anticipate issuing an extensive CDROM version of
T5 later this year (I suppose that gives me to Dec 31?)
totaling about 1000 pages."
So Dec 31, 2007 is the anticipated release date.
"We anticipate issuing an extensive CDROM version of
T5 later this year (I suppose that gives me to Dec 31?)
totaling about 1000 pages."
So Dec 31, 2007 is the anticipated release date.
Whoa! Who the heck said that? And why? That's really wrong. It's his creation and everything.
The problem with any fan-driven expandable enterprise is that the developer loses control the moment it goes to print.
In an RPG, the designer isn't the final say; each ref is. If you don't give the fanbase the tools they want and need, they will reject the product and the developer.
Based upon what's been published, MWM was not the primary Traveller line developer EVEN DURING CT; he developed the initial state, and the company as a whole developed it in many ways, with MWM's input, but not of need his control. (Loren appears to have done more, actually.) During MT, MWM wasn't even involved, as it was outsourced to DGP. TNE was Frank and Loren, then Dave, with input from Marc.
T4 was the first we got to see of Marc Miller's view...
And Most of us (though not all) rejected it either in whole or in part.
It had the best psionics rules of any traveller edition. And that's the only part that was, for me, ANY kind of improvement over other editions.
So it's not truth to say that "it's his creation" per se. It was GDW building upon his creation, LBB1-3 and the base ideas of the setting. It grew in wild ways, that many fans have embraced.
And it was obvious in T4 that MWM hadn't kept up design wise nor with the Traveller fan base.
Which makes it a valid question to ask "Should MWM be developing it, or should he step back and leave it to the next generation?"
(Me, I think the answer is a cautious "Probably not.")
In an RPG, the designer isn't the final say; each ref is. If you don't give the fanbase the tools they want and need, they will reject the product and the developer.
Based upon what's been published, MWM was not the primary Traveller line developer EVEN DURING CT; he developed the initial state, and the company as a whole developed it in many ways, with MWM's input, but not of need his control. (Loren appears to have done more, actually.) During MT, MWM wasn't even involved, as it was outsourced to DGP. TNE was Frank and Loren, then Dave, with input from Marc.
T4 was the first we got to see of Marc Miller's view...
And Most of us (though not all) rejected it either in whole or in part.
It had the best psionics rules of any traveller edition. And that's the only part that was, for me, ANY kind of improvement over other editions.
So it's not truth to say that "it's his creation" per se. It was GDW building upon his creation, LBB1-3 and the base ideas of the setting. It grew in wild ways, that many fans have embraced.
And it was obvious in T4 that MWM hadn't kept up design wise nor with the Traveller fan base.
Which makes it a valid question to ask "Should MWM be developing it, or should he step back and leave it to the next generation?"
(Me, I think the answer is a cautious "Probably not.")
The way that reads, it could either be "MWM should probably not be developing it" or "MWM should probably not step back and leave it to the next generation." Those do have somewhat different meanings. Of course, it could be both. He should be doing it, but he shouldn't step back as well.
I think you meant the first, but I'm just asking for clarification.
Or more concisely, "Huh?"
Thanks,
Flynn
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
I think it's a lot like Star Wars - many fans hated TPM, but the fact is that it's GL's creation, not theirs; like it or not, his version is the "correct" one. Same with Traveller. I hope Marc listens to us, but he's never gonna please everyone. In the end, Traveller is whatever Marc says it is.
Andrew; that's pretty interesting. I really dont know the history of the game's development beyond the basics (created 1977, orginally a generic RPG so people could do "D&D in spoace" kind of thing).
I've tried several times to write fiction and adventures, but have always put on the breaks partly due to incomplete inspiration, but also because I wasn't sure how my adventure would fit into the big MWM scheme of things.
I've read that he wanted to take the game in one direction, then I read about cleaning up the extreme violence in the game (which I never really got; I never saw Traveller as being extremely violent as such, just combative). Then I looked into T4, was kind of iffy on it (largely because I had no one to play with at the time), then read something else, then came across these boards, read about the dissatisfaction with MT, the whole DGP cock-up, and on and on.
So, from a lay player's POV, i.e. me, I just get a little confused by the guidance and determination of who wants to do what, where, when and wherefore.
I like your Lucas analogy, but Lucas, to my mind, shifted his cinematic direction and focus (that, and he hadn't directed in 20 years when he went to do TPM), but it was his setting designed and built to his specifications. I'd put your description of Traveller more with Gene Roddenberry's Trek creation. He had the basic idea, but the ship, the uniforms, the set design and everything else were contributions by the crew, and not his visions as such. In short, I see where you're going with this.
Well, I've been working on some pieces for Traveller, but stuff like this sometimes has me scratching my head. I guess the best I can do is just to draft up my stuff, submit it (or gain a liecnse) and see what the power-that-be think.
Ah well.
Thanks for ther response.
I've tried several times to write fiction and adventures, but have always put on the breaks partly due to incomplete inspiration, but also because I wasn't sure how my adventure would fit into the big MWM scheme of things.
I've read that he wanted to take the game in one direction, then I read about cleaning up the extreme violence in the game (which I never really got; I never saw Traveller as being extremely violent as such, just combative). Then I looked into T4, was kind of iffy on it (largely because I had no one to play with at the time), then read something else, then came across these boards, read about the dissatisfaction with MT, the whole DGP cock-up, and on and on.
So, from a lay player's POV, i.e. me
, I just get a little confused by the guidance and determination of who wants to do what, where, when and wherefore.I like your Lucas analogy, but Lucas, to my mind, shifted his cinematic direction and focus (that, and he hadn't directed in 20 years when he went to do TPM), but it was his setting designed and built to his specifications. I'd put your description of Traveller more with Gene Roddenberry's Trek creation. He had the basic idea, but the ship, the uniforms, the set design and everything else were contributions by the crew, and not his visions as such. In short, I see where you're going with this.
Well, I've been working on some pieces for Traveller, but stuff like this sometimes has me scratching my head. I guess the best I can do is just to draft up my stuff, submit it (or gain a liecnse) and see what the power-that-be think.
Ah well.
Thanks for ther response.
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Marc wants to make money from Traveller.
That he'd let Traveller die is a non-sequiter, so either handing it off or doing it himself are the two options, and the are nearly mutually exclusive. He keeps trying to to both, and the results are not promising to the fan base.
And his track record in the last 12 years is pretty bad on his image. Missed deadline after missed deadline. Outright rejection of some feedback, and sticking to approaches that have been heavily panned by the fan bases (of both Traveller and the other games which used them)... Badly mishandled playtesting, not entirely his fault there.
Licensing mongoose, who want to de-fracture the Traveller community, and then announcing that he himself is going to sabotage that effort by releasing T5 in addition to mongoose releasing RTT, despite having put the kibosh on TWO separate attempts by known quantities to do likewise, both of which were being highly praised by the fans who were involved in the playtests. And going to keep a competing (and detail overloaded, IMO) additional and incompatible ruleset licensed to use the setting.
That he'd let Traveller die is a non-sequiter, so either handing it off or doing it himself are the two options, and the are nearly mutually exclusive. He keeps trying to to both, and the results are not promising to the fan base.
And his track record in the last 12 years is pretty bad on his image. Missed deadline after missed deadline. Outright rejection of some feedback, and sticking to approaches that have been heavily panned by the fan bases (of both Traveller and the other games which used them)... Badly mishandled playtesting, not entirely his fault there.
Licensing mongoose, who want to de-fracture the Traveller community, and then announcing that he himself is going to sabotage that effort by releasing T5 in addition to mongoose releasing RTT, despite having put the kibosh on TWO separate attempts by known quantities to do likewise, both of which were being highly praised by the fans who were involved in the playtests. And going to keep a competing (and detail overloaded, IMO) additional and incompatible ruleset licensed to use the setting.
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
You're speculating on things that haven't been written yet. Let's just wait and see. We may be pleasantly surprised.
P
Pickles
Guest
Oh, he's going to release T5, is he? Riiight ...
aramis; I guess you know more than I do. I just read where another game desinger lost his temper yet again with one of his more loyal fans. Stuff like that makes me wonder if I shouldn't quit trying to write for some of my favorite games, and stick with writing stuff I know how to write.
I've never seen Avery/Marc lose his cool with anyone here, largely because he rarely posts. I've never interracted with the man but once, and even then my post was not replied to.
I had an after game late night meal at a 24hr cafe one time with a guy I know whose been to Origins a few times. According to him a lot of the big gaming mucky-mucks there try to be big fish in small ponds.
I've never got that impression from Marc Miller or the Traveller people enlarge. Then again I'm not privy to the behind the scenes stuff, and I think I'm pretty grateful for that.
I like the game, and all the immaginative creations generated from it, but when I read stuff on these boards about who wants what ... I don't know. It's just a game. You know?
Anyway, thanks for the reply.
I've never seen Avery/Marc lose his cool with anyone here, largely because he rarely posts. I've never interracted with the man but once, and even then my post was not replied to.
I had an after game late night meal at a 24hr cafe one time with a guy I know whose been to Origins a few times. According to him a lot of the big gaming mucky-mucks there try to be big fish in small ponds.
I've never got that impression from Marc Miller or the Traveller people enlarge. Then again I'm not privy to the behind the scenes stuff, and I think I'm pretty grateful for that.
I like the game, and all the immaginative creations generated from it, but when I read stuff on these boards about who wants what ... I don't know. It's just a game. You know?
Anyway, thanks for the reply.
I was referring to GT, Andrew...
Are you trying to tell me GT isn't ALREADY out?
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
I was referring to GT, Andrew...
Are you trying to tell me GT isn't ALREADY out?
Sorry.
I'm not a fan of GURPS, but the GT books are excellent and easily-converted, so I'm happy for them to continue.
Personally, I find them detail-ridden, hard to use, and counter to good GMing, but that's just me and every Traveller GM I've played under or with...
because they define TOO much, too tightly. In any case, it shows that MWM is already, before words of RTT are on paper, sabatoging Mongoose's efforts to consolidate the fan base.
I doubt MWM will be pulling the PDF's, either, of MT, TNE, or T4...
because they define TOO much, too tightly. In any case, it shows that MWM is already, before words of RTT are on paper, sabatoging Mongoose's efforts to consolidate the fan base.
I doubt MWM will be pulling the PDF's, either, of MT, TNE, or T4...
Andrew Boulton
The Adminator
I think you're in a minority disliking the GT books.
And what possible motive could Marc have for sabotage?
And what possible motive could Marc have for sabotage?
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
I don't think he meant intentional sabotage, Andrew.
