No Population, No Tech Code?

[far-trader]

[expletive deleted]

:rofl:

My thoughts as well

 

[Gruffty]

OK, I stand corrected - thanks for pointing that out, Dan.

Population: The digit indicating population is an exponent of 10. This may be viewed as the number of zeros following a one. Thus, a population digit of 6 indicates a population of approximately 1,000,000. See the population table.

Digit Description
0     0. No inhabitants.
1     10
2     100
3     1,000
4     10,000
5     100,000
6     1,000,000
7     10,000,000
8     100,000,000
9     1,000,000,000
A     10,000,000,000

So it looks like Mongoose reverted to CT 1st ed. for the population table for MGT.

 

[far-trader]

The problem is that the definition implies that every single population 0 world with a TL is full of prepositioned industrial infrastructure, which is patently ridiculous. It also implies that every single world with a population lower than that which will sustain its TL is equally full of empty factories, waiting for another couple of thousands or millions or billions of immigrants to arrive and start running them...

Does it? Really. Or is that just your first instinct?

Me I figure it's all tied together. Yes that Pop 0 world with TL C is able to manufacture, maintain, supply, and use TLC items... for it's 6 residents.

So the PCs show up and want to buy a Gauss Rifle. And hey the locals do have Gauss Rifles (if I want them to). But it's not like they have a store full of retail versions on the shelf at list price. No, two of the residents have Gauss Rifles and they aren't for sale. Tough. They will however give you Gauss Needles, one at a time or in bursts if you aren't careful.

They don't have huge factories waiting for thousands of laborors to arrive to pour out mass manufactured Gauss Rifles for sale. They have some advanced tools and a small highly automated shop that can produce one at a time as needed. If the PCs have the time, and money, they might be able to get the residents to make them a Gauss Rifle.

 

[far-trader]

OK, I stand corrected - thanks for pointing that out, Dan.

No problem Gruffty

So it looks like Mongoose reverted to CT 1st ed. for the population table for MGT.

So it does, complete with the inconsitency. That's a bit of a puzzler

And irksome :nonono:

 

[Gruffty]

I can't comment on the rationale for the shift in parameters for Pop 0 (cos I don't know what was being thought by the writer at the time). However it does make things easier from a "read it and weep" UWP perspective: Pop 0 means no-one is home.

So anyway, for the sake of it (and cos I'm obsessional) I put together a speadshite of the Population codes across all editions, including 1st and 2 nd edition CT, Starter Traveller and TTB.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

AFAICT the pop multiplier and 0-9 inhabitants has been canon since SMC.

 

[rancke]

Me I figure it's all tied together. Yes that Pop 0 world with TL C is able to manufacture, maintain, supply, and use TLC items... for it's 6 residents.

So the PCs show up and want to buy a Gauss Rifle. And hey the locals do have Gauss Rifles (if I want them to). But it's not like they have a store full of retail versions on the shelf at list price. No, two of the residents have Gauss Rifles and they aren't for sale. Tough. They will however give you Gauss Needles, one at a time or in bursts if you aren't careful.

Dan, how many people does it take to build a gauss rifle from scratch? A lot more than just six. Hey, six people couldn't even maintain a tech level of 1. If those two locals have gauss rifles, they're imports. If they built the rifles, they assembled them from imported parts.

They don't have huge factories waiting for thousands of laborers to arrive to pour out mass manufactured Gauss Rifles for sale. They have some advanced tools and a small highly automated shop that can produce one at a time as needed. If the PCs have the time, and money, they might be able to get the residents to make them a Gauss Rifle.

But they don't have the manpower to dig out the ores, smelt the metals, mix the alloys, synthesize the synthetics, and manufacture the components.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Just stumbled on this little tidbit in the back of The Spinward Marches:

"It is important to understand that technological level does not necessarily imply that a world is capable of creating or manufacturieng materials at that tech level; merely that such items are present. Consider, for example, that many cities use equipment which is of a certain sophistication, for example modern computers -- but there is no corresponding manufaxcturing ability for such items in most cities." [SM:39]​

Hans

 

[far-trader]

Dan, how many people does it take to build a gauss rifle from scratch?

Did you see the bit about "advanced tools and a small highly automated shop"? That's part of the high TL imo. They won't be drilling an iron barrel with hand tools, they'll have a computer aided manufacturing setup, an advanced version of some of the desktop prototypers now out there. It'll have a library full of designs. You just provide the raw materials and it builds the parts. Some (simple) assembly required (maybe, high enough TL and it can do that too).

Hey, six people couldn't even maintain a tech level of 1.

I can agree with this. In fact many low TLs require a lot of people just for simple maintenance. They are very heavily labour intensive. Higher TLs can do away with a large labour force. Six people could easily maintain a TL C lifestyle, for themselves, within reason of course. They are not going to be maintaining a fleet of starships, maybe one small one. They are not going to be maintaining a city with dwellings for millions and shops with retail goods and services for hundreds or thousands of visitors, maybe one or two homes and they can put up a couple guests in the spare room.

It's all about scale is what I'm saying.

If those two locals have gauss rifles, they're imports. If they built the rifles, they assembled them from imported parts.


But they don't have the manpower to dig out the ores, smelt the metals, mix the alloys, synthesize the synthetics, and manufacture the components.

We'll have to disagree then. I can see full personal design and desktop (or garage) production of any number of products in my lifetime. Including input materials (through recylcling of materials more likely than digging and processing ores or creating plastics from raw pertroleum wells. But I can also see, not many TLs after that, small fully automated mining and drilling, with onsite small output to feed the small personal scale factory.

Forget "on time production" and all that. That was the 20th century. I'm seeing personal(ized) home production on demand for the 21st century. We already have some and I think it'll only grow. Certainly for a Sci-Fi game of the far future we can expect it.

 

[rancke]

Did you see the bit about "advanced tools and a small highly automated shop"? That's part of the high TL imo.

But an explanation that only explains part of the observed data is no good. You explanation may or may not work for ultra-tech levels (I doubt it, but it's arguable), but it most certainly does not work for low-, mid-, and high-tech levels.

They won't be drilling an iron barrel with hand tools, they'll have a computer aided manufacturing setup, an advanced version of some of the desktop prototypers now out there. It'll have a library full of designs. You just provide the raw materials and it builds the parts. Some (simple) assembly required (maybe, high enough TL and it can do that too).

And that's one of the reasons I don't think it works: "You just provide the raw materials". Even by TL 15, I think "raw materials" is more than a shovelful of dirt. It's alloys, ceramics, and plastics (Oh, my!).

The other is a question of scale. How much does it cost to have the manufacturing capability that you posit? Is that something that six or nine people would normally be able to afford? Your explanation might work for a few instances with eccentric millionaires bankrolling a small outpost, but not as a general explanation.

I can agree with this. In fact many low TLs require a lot of people just for simple maintenance. They are very heavily labour intensive. Higher TLs can do away with a large labour force. Six people could easily maintain a TL C lifestyle, for themselves, within reason of course. They are not going to be maintaining a fleet of starships, maybe one small one. They are not going to be maintaining a city with dwellings for millions and shops with retail goods and services for hundreds or thousands of visitors, maybe one or two homes and they can put up a couple guests in the spare room.

It's all about scale is what I'm saying.

That's what I'm saying too ;-). According to Central Supply Catalog, a TL10 Mobile Fabrication Facility costs Cr159,000 and requires a stock of metals, ceramics, and plastics. You can equip a 9-man expedition very well for that kind of money.

We'll have to disagree then. I can see full personal design and desktop (or garage) production of any number of products in my lifetime. Including input materials (through recylcling of materials more likely than digging and processing ores or creating plastics from raw pertroleum wells. But I can also see, not many TLs after that, small fully automated mining and drilling, with onsite small output to feed the small personal scale factory.

But do you see something like that for TL 1-8?

Forget "on time production" and all that. That was the 20th century. I'm seeing personal(ized) home production on demand for the 21st century. We already have some and I think it'll only grow. Certainly for a Sci-Fi game of the far future we can expect it.

For this particular Sci-Fi game of the far future, we can expect that things won't change radically enough to make such manufacturing capacity dirt cheap, since that would change the background beyond recognition. Why would anyone pay merchants to haul gauss rifles from one world to another if the other world could just buy a mini-fac and start shoveling dirt?


Hans

 

[samuelvss]

Arguably it would be easier even at TL's 1-8 to maintain things; you would have far fewer things to maintain.

To produce tens of thousands of weapons at TL 4 you need a source of steel of the appropriate quality, trained machinists, trained foremen, other unskilled labor, and a factory at the very least. To produce ammunition, manuals, cleaning kits, slings, and ....well the list goes on.

To produce a handful, you need a very handy machinist, and the scraps hanging around the shop. You will get a VERY EXPENSIVE (if you have to pay the machinist) handful of TL4 weapons. If you are the machinist, and these weapons are to protect friends and loved ones, then economies of scale are not really an issue.

You can produce some items at TL n, have items at TL n, and maintain items at TL n while completely lacking the ability to produce even 5% of the items on sale at the StuffMart at TL n.

Trade and know-how along can be sufficient to keep a world with no production capabilities at a certain TL; this would require both robust trade and very robust logistics. Something breaks, everything starts to slip.

 

[rancke]

Arguably it would be easier even at TL's 1-8 to maintain things; you would have far fewer things to maintain.

I won't argue against that . But the TL definition that I claim is flawed equates the ability to manufacture with the ability to maintain and the general use of artifacts of that specific tech level. Which I submit is wrong. You can use something without knowing how to maintain it and you can maintain something without being able to manufacture it.

And I'm dissapointed that no one has reacted to the quote I found about TL being use and not necessarily maintenance or manufacture.



Hans