No easy fuel

[parmasson]

While I was poking around a site that Malenfant posted I found this juicy little tidbit.

Already, Geoff Marcy of the University of California, Berkeley, is finding a rise in the number of planets out beyond 1 AU. Marcy predicts that the frequency of gas giants on long orbits is as high as those closer in. If correct, then about 12 percent of normal stars have at least one Jupiter or Saturn.
"But the inverse is maybe more interesting – about 85 percent of stars do not have a gas giant," Marcy said.
This may mean Jupiter-sized planets are somewhat hard to form. This may or may not be true for terrestrial planets, like Earth. The most-favored theory of planet formation assumes that rocky cores form readily in the disks of leftover material around newborn stars, but only some of these planet seeds are big enough to capture gas to become a giant.

Does this mean that we can create lots of star systems with no gas giant and force those players dirtside?

I can see them now, chipping off pieces of ice when suddenly . . . .

It is from:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/050509_exoplanet_review.html

 

[mike wightman]

Interesting article.

The Imperium doesn't need to worry about gas giants for refuelling, it just has to dig into the archives for the technology used in tanker squadrons of the Vilani Imperium and the Terrans during the Aslan wars in the Dark Nebula

They can make ship fuel from a star's atmosphere...

 

[stofsk]

Seriously though, how many gasgiants do you actually need for fuel extraction and refining?

 

[RainOfSteel]

Originally posted by stofsk:
Seriously though, how many gasgiants do you actually need for fuel extraction and refining?

It isn't the gas giants that are the problem. It's getting the fuel where you want it in the classic 1 parsec jump requires 10% of the ship's volume situation.

Tanker-led operations are slow and ponderous. All those extra tankers get expensive, especially when you have batron after batron to move around, and the tankers need to be big enough to supply the fuel needs of all those battlewagons.

If the tankers can skim fuel from a star*, now that would obviate the need for gas giants in regards to most long range military operations. This is still not as fast as standard gas-giant skimming. As the tankers need to gather sufficient fuel for the whole fleet, and then must fill up themselves (in case the fleet needs to back out of wherever it is going ).

Merchants, however, would ususally be toasted by any need to spend time travelling out to the star.


* I have no idea how this works as a ship's system, I have never seen star-scoops design sequence stats before.

 

[mike wightman]

I have no idea how this works as a ship's system, I have never seen star-scoops design sequence stats before.

Me neither.

Just the two references in the Imperium and Dark Nebula boardgames.

I like the idea though.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Originally posted by stofsk:
Seriously though, how many gasgiants do you actually need for fuel extraction and refining?

If the answer is more than one, your ship is *far* too big...


That reminds me. Way back (maybe when MT came out) I came across a small "newspaper" (maybe a GDW promo thing) which included an article calculating how long it would take the Navy to use up a gas giant. Anyone else remember this?

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by stofsk:
Seriously though, how many gasgiants do you actually need for fuel extraction and refining?

If the answer is more than one, your ship is *far* too big...


That reminds me. Way back (maybe when MT came out) I came across a small "newspaper" (maybe a GDW promo thing) which included an article calculating how long it would take the Navy to use up a gas giant. Anyone else remember this? </font>[/QUOTE]I think I remember it on the TML, but not the length, it was a veeeeery long time though. I worked up the free fuel for a small low hydro world once. It was enough that I saw no reason for the planet to worry about it even if they had everybody stopping in to top up the tanks. I think the sun was going to go out before traders could have drained the free water

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

A Bussard ramscoop could be used as a star-scoop, but it would be creating tremendous drag on the ship to do so. I wonder if it would even be feasible. From what I'm reading, even the coronal mass ejection from a flare is pretty tenuous plasma.

 

[aramis]

Given that the canonical ships can make use of the water, methane and ammonia, giants are the least of the cheap fuel worries; Oort and Kuiper objects will provide plenty of fueling points.

And Electrolysis of these chemicals to extract Hydrogen will be cheap enough that fusing the result loses little net output.

When the optical resolution is good enough to check for oort and kuiper belts around nearby stars, then we will see for certain.

 

[parmasson]

I like any reason to force them out of their ship.
No wonder they are paranoid.

 

[Straybow]

[peeks aroung corner]

Of course, if the system had been designed proportional to the energy potential of fusion Traveller ships would only need a fraction of the canonical fuel requirements.

[ducks back around corner]

 

[robject]

Too true.

I wonder if Traveller would be fun if it were realistic?

 

[Chuck Anumia]

You mean it is not!!!

(Don't tell the gearheadonistic Connonmongers!)

 

[hurrahbro]

Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by stofsk:
Seriously though, how many gasgiants do you actually need for fuel extraction and refining?

If the answer is more than one, your ship is *far* too big...


That reminds me. Way back (maybe when MT came out) I came across a small "newspaper" (maybe a GDW promo thing) which included an article calculating how long it would take the Navy to use up a gas giant. Anyone else remember this? </font>[/QUOTE]I Now have a mental image of the Imperial Navy intradicting a gas giant to preserve it for future generations! Or Just for themselves!

 

[Uncle Bob]

He's guessing. There might be 6-10% outer gas giants, there might be 90%. We couldn't have found Jupiter yet, so there might be a lot of gas giants with 10-20 year orbits.

Also it is harder to detect a planet in a circular orbit and harder to detect on in orbit perpendicular to the line of sight.

 

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
He's guessing. There might be 6-10% outer gas giants, there might be 90%. We couldn't have found Jupiter yet, so there might be a lot of gas giants with 10-20 year orbits.

Also, if the chance for outer-orbit GGs would be as small as indicated by the article, the Solar System would be an enormous oddity. Now, the oddity seems normal if you are the oddity, but still, unless and until we get more reliable data and a better understanding of how planets are formed, I'll join you in being skeptic of bold assessments.
What we do apparently know is that GGs can be placed in "Torch" orbits. Fwuff!

Regards,

Tobias

 

[menistvo]

Just a suggestion pertaining to Gas Giants - I personally do not include certain gas giants (brown dwarves, dark hot Jupiters) in the UWP three-digit PPG listing. Some may allow refueling in brown dwarves and dark Jovians, but after reading a bit about them, I believe it is either impossible or far too dangerous. A gas giant with silicate clouds and 1300K temperatures would make ocean refuelling very appealing.

 

[aramis]

Hot GG's don't negate the relevant hydrocarbon rich asteroidals, a cheap, and probably numerous source of hydrgen.

 

[Straybow]

Skimming would never get you deep enough to worry about silicate clouds. Skimming shouldn't get you deep enough to worry about temperature, either. When you skim the upper atmosphere temperature is defined by average molecular velocity.

 

[archhealer]

I did, on a whim, design a spherical battleship large enough that the standard sized, T20 small gas giant actually fit inside it's main fuel tank. Yes, I'm aware the ship is totally unrealistic, and in fact was almost unusable due to the systems and support crew required (More engineering staff than can be found on a mid-pop world, really) but it was still kind of neat.