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New TravellerMap Info Graphics... Grrr

Okay, I've tweaked the way user gestures cause cards to be shown and dismissed. This will probably be refined further but it now seems less abrupt to me. Further feedback appreciated.

(Also, if you need to force the details to show for the centered world without clicking and you're on a computer with a keyboard, hit 'C'. Other keyboard shortcuts are documented on the about page.)

...

One thing the infocards bring front and center is that the T5 Ix/Ex/Cx values don't have standard explanations in the same way that e.g. elements of the UWP do.

For example, the cards decode Gov 8 to "Civil Service Bureaucracy", but what exactly does Strangeness 6 "mean"? Or Symbols 12 ?

Those would be easy to slot in if someone volunteers to write them.
 
inexorabletash said:
One thing the infocards bring front and center is that the T5 Ix/Ex/Cx values don't have standard explanations in the same way that e.g. elements of the UWP do.

For example, the cards decode Gov 8 to "Civil Service Bureaucracy", but what exactly does Strangeness 6 "mean"? Or Symbols 12 ?

Those would be easy to slot in if someone volunteers to write them.
Click to expand...

I have a reasonably good handle on importance and a partial understating of the economic extension. How long is your limit on the text you would use? By eyeball something between two and 10 (short) words

For importance I would be tempted to generate the text on the fly: There are three conditions that produce negative importance: Poor starport, Low TL, small population.

There are four conditions that produce positive importance: Good/excellent starport, stellar TL, Good/excellent economics (Ag, Hi, In, Ri), and communications hub (the bases).

Code: 
-3 Very Low importance, poor starport, low TL, small population
-2 Low importance
-1 Low importance
 0 Medium importance
 1 Medium importance
 2 High importance 
 3 High importance
 4 Very High importance
 5 Very high importance, good starport, stellar TL, excellent Economics, communcations hub.

For the EX codes. There isn't a lot to go on here. The values are all abstractions and meant to be used relative to each other. And combined into the RU value, another unexplained abstraction.

Resources: 2 to 18
Code: 
2-3     Extremely Low 
4-5     Very Low
6-7     Low
8-9     Moderate 
10-11 High
12-13 Very High
14+    Extremely High

Labor : I would use the population text for labor value: e.g. labor 6 => Millions.

Infrastructure : 0 to 17
Code: 
0 Non-existent
1-2 extremely poor
3-4 very poor
5-6 poor
7-8 fair
9-10  good 
11-12 very good
13-14 excellent
14+    very excellent

Efficiency: flux value -5 to +5
Code: 
-5 Extremely poor
-4 very poor
-3 poor
-2 fair
-1 average
 0 average 
 1 average
 2 good
 3 very good
 4 excellent
 5 very excellent

For the Cultural values I've not the first clue. I seem to recall the DGP book Grand Census has these as part of the census generation. And I keep meaning to pull my copy off the bookshelf to see if there are any better explanations than tautologies in the T5 book.
 
inexorabletash said:
Okay, I've tweaked the way user gestures cause cards to be shown and dismissed. This will probably be refined further but it now seems less abrupt to me. Further feedback appreciated.
Click to expand...

I have aggressively tested my earlier issue (constant pop-ups) and pronounce: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! Works great now. Thank you so much for your hard work!

And I did mess around with the printable infocards and they look great. Ixnay my earlier complaint about appearance since the printable form is exactly the look that I favored.
 
My Fanrking Life! &|^#%!

inexorabletash said:
Okay, I've tweaked the way user gestures cause cards to be shown and dismissed. This will probably be refined further but it now seems less abrupt to me. Further feedback appreciated.

(Also, if you need to force the details to show for the centered world without clicking and you're on a computer with a keyboard, hit 'C'. Other keyboard shortcuts are documented on the about page.)
Click to expand...
I will see what I can do feedback-wise on the gesture as well since I am on an old iPad and if I do it right it might not crash even. :)

inexorabletash said:
One thing the infocards bring front and center is that the T5 Ix/Ex/Cx values don't have standard explanations in the same way that e.g. elements of the UWP do.▮

For example, the cards decode Gov 8 to "Civil Service Bureaucracy", but what exactly does Strangeness 6 "mean"? Or Symbols 12 ?

Those would be easy to slot in if someone volunteers to write them.
Click to expand...
I may take a crack at this but as the title suggests my life is beyond its usual hectic and pushed right on through "Well,****! This is going some place that makes sideways seem pretty normal. Suffice to say, only the best in moving drama here, but the project interests me.▮

tjoneslo, love the basic start you have in relation to this!

And being a true GM and a Developer and Blah, and Blah...

:rolleyes:

I sorta made some adjustments. Tried to get them in bold so we all could know the difference. I would use color but frankly...see above. *shrugs* Also, did I mention the tired?

Another thing is I did was to copy the definitions for the machine and the end user whose search brings up one of th entries that didn't have descriptive text.

tjoneslo said:
I have a reasonably good handle on importance and a partial understating of the economic extension. How long is your limit on the text you would use? By eyeball something between two and 10 (short) words▮

For importance I would be tempted to generate the text on the fly: There are three conditions that produce negative importance: Poor starport, Low TL, small population.▮

There are four conditions that produce positive importance: Good/excellent starport, stellar TL, Good/excellent economics (Ag, Hi, In, Ri), and communications hub (the bases).▮

Code: 
[B]-4 Very Low importance: No/poor starport, no/low TL, no/small economic value, beacon/bases unlikely.[/B]
-3 Very low Importance[B] No/poor starport, no/low TL, no/small economic value, beacon/bases unlikely.[/B]
-2 Low importance[B]: Poor starport, low TL, small economic value, beacon/bases possible.[/B]
-1 Low importance[B]: Poor starport, low TL, small economic value, beacon/bases possible.[/B]
▮0 Medium importance[B], basic starport, space TL, average economic value, beacon/bases likely.[/B]
▮1 Medium importance[B], basic starport, space TL, average economic value, beacon/bases likely.[/B]
▮2 High importance[B]good starport, stellar TL, good economic value, communication route/bases probable.[/B]
▮3 High importance[B]good starport, stellar TL, good economic value, communication route/bases probable.[/B]
▮4 Very High importance[B], excellent starport, interstellar TL, excellent economic value, communcations hub/bases present.[/B]
▮5 Very high importance[B], excellent starport, interstellar TL, excellent economic value, communcations hub/bases present.[/B]

For the EX codes. There isn't a lot to go on here. The values are all abstractions and meant to be used relative to each other. And combined into the RU value, another unexplained abstraction.▮

Resources: 2 to 18▮
Code: 
2-3 ▮ ▮ Extremely Low: [b]barely any exploitation, no space resources aavailable.[/b]
4-5 ▮ ▮ Very Low
6-7 ▮ ▮ Low
8-9 ▮ ▮ Moderate: [b]good exploitation, may include space resources.[/b]
10-11 High
12-13 Very High
14+ ▮ ▮Extremely High: [b]excellent exploitation, includes space resources.[/b]

Labor : I would use the population text for labor value: e.g. labor 6 => Millions.▮

I agree with this suggestion for Labor.

Infrastructure : 0 to 17
Code: 
0 Non-existent:
1-2 extremely poor
3-4 very poor
5-6 poor
7-8 fair:
9-10 ▮good▮
11-12 very good
13-14 excellent
14+ ▮ ▮very excellent:

Efficiency: flux value -5 to +5
Code: 
-5 Extremely poor[b], massive trade barriers.[/b]
-4 very poor
-3 poor
-2 fair
-1 average
▮0 average[b], may be trade barriers.[/b]
▮1 average
▮2 good
▮3 very good
▮4 excellent
▮5 very excellent[b], no trade barriers.[/b]

For the Cultural values I've not the first clue. I seem to recall the DGP book Grand Census has these as part of the census generation. And I keep meaning to pull my copy off the bookshelf to see if there are any better explanations than tautologies in the T5 book.
Click to expand...
I will see about booting my new machine up and checking the PDF for T5.09, maybe.

I am working on this still but I wanted to get a better version out [o]first[/o].

And now my off the top of my memory, which while I did just skim this, there is the aforementioned drama extraordinaire. You know what, leave the Cultral to someone else for now.▮

Again,digging this "very much" as it is "very excellent"! :D

Seriously, we have to find to find a better turn of phrase than "very excellent", not to be a dick but it just makes the Gammar Totalitarian in my cringe. The author too. I mean, let us not forget I am sitting here saying we need one not let's use this. ;)

Well, had to take this offline to work with sanely..you know for me anyway. I will now take this online and give it a quick whirl through the preview to the soulful and sensous sounds of Humate's awesome 1996.

Travel safe and keep the comm lines open.

EDIT: As you see, tired started kicking dedication is the butt. And someone else can fix the uglies. :toast:
 
Last edited:
Kilgs said:
I have aggressively tested my earlier issue (constant pop-ups) and pronounce: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! Works great now. Thank you so much for your hard work!

And I did mess around with the printable infocards and they look great. Ixnay my earlier complaint about appearance since the printable form is exactly the look that I favored.
Click to expand...

w00t!

Magnus von Thornwood said:
I will see what I can do feedback-wise on the gesture as well since I am on an old iPad and if I do it right it might not crash even. :)
Click to expand...

Making the infocards appear on touch-centric devices will be future work. But one of the benefits of the thin modeless infocard design is that it is viable for display on phone-type displays, whereas the printable format was not.

Again, digging this "very much" as it is "very excellent"! :D
Click to expand...

In the tables, let's try and avoid using "very" too much and look for terms like "superb" rather than "very excellent".

("Most excellent" as pronounced with a San Dimas accent is acceptable, though.)
 
Sorry about the X, Very X format, I was following the T5 book way of doing exactly the same thing.

As Magnus points out the Resources are of two parts, planetary and space.

Space resources are Gas Giants + Belts and TL 8+
Code: 
0 No Space Resources
1 - 2 Scarce Space resources
3 - 4 Moderate Space resources
5 - 6 Abundant space resources
Then planetary resources are Resources - (GG + Belts) => 2 to 12
Code: 
2      Very Scarce resources
3-4   Scarce planetary resources
4-6   few planetary resources
7-8   moderate planetary resources
9-10 Abundant planetary resources
11-12 Very abundant planetary resources
I like the Scarce/moderate/abundant better than the few/some/many groups.

Infrastructure:
Code: 
0       Non-existent:
1-2    Extremely limited
3-4    Very Limited
5-6    limited 
7-8    Generally Available
9-10  Extensive
11-12 Very Extensive
13-14 Comprehensive
15+    Very Comprehensive

Efficiency: flux value -5 to +5

Code: 
-5 Extremely poor
-4 very poor
-3 poor
-2 fair
-1 average
 0 average
 1 average
 2 good 
 3 improved 
 4 advanced 
 5 very advanced

So here's another set of words for Infrastructure and efficiency ratings.

For the Cultural Extension I was correct. There are corresponding tables in the World Builder's Handbook (p.75) to match these elements. Some of these tables have been copied into Pocket Empires (See tables section).

Homogeneity (Pop + Flux) with a min value of 1, to 15 or 16. In WBH there is an extensiveness table. In PE there is a Unity table.
Code: 
1-3 Monlithic
4-7 Harmonious
8-11 Discorndant
12+   Fragmented

Acceptance: (Pop + Ix) with a min value of 1 to 15. WBH has a second table under extensiveness for interstellar relations. PE calls this second table Tolerance. I think this table ought to be inverted. That is smaller values (small population and unimportant worlds) are less accepting and tolerant.

Code: 
1-3 Xenophilic 
4-7 Friendly
8-11 Aloof
12+  Xenophobic

Strangeness (Flux + 5 => 1 to 10)
WBH has a whole section (page 75-77) about cultural details. The start of this section is "Roll 1D for number of local customs". We could extend this in to 1 to 10 notable local customs. This somewhat matches the description in T5 book (p. 411). PE has no corresponding table(s).

Symbols (TL + Flux, minimum of 1, to 20)
Unfortunately the text for this is cut off in the T5.09 book (p.411). And neither WBH and PE have a corresponding mapping table. I really have no idea what this is supposed to represent, nor how to explain any given result to anyone else.
 
tjoneslo said:
For the Cultural Extension I was correct. There are corresponding tables in the World Builder's Handbook (p.75) to match these elements. Some of these tables have been copied into Pocket Empires (See tables section).

Homogeneity (Pop + Flux) with a min value of 1, to 15 or 16. In WBH there is an extensiveness table. In PE there is a Unity table.
Code: 
1-3 Monlithic
4-7 Harmonious
8-11 Discorndant
12+   Fragmented
Acceptance: (Pop + Ix) with a min value of 1 to 15. WBH has a second table under extensiveness for interstellar relations. PE calls this second table Tolerance. I think this table ought to be inverted. That is smaller values (small population and unimportant worlds) are less accepting and tolerant.

Code: 
1-3 Xenophilic 
4-7 Friendly
8-11 Aloof
12+  Xenophobic
Strangeness (Flux + 5 => 1 to 10)
WBH has a whole section (page 75-77) about cultural details. The start of this section is "Roll 1D for number of local customs". We could extend this in to 1 to 10 notable local customs. This somewhat matches the description in T5 book (p. 411). PE has no corresponding table(s).

Symbols (TL + Flux, minimum of 1, to 20)
Unfortunately the text for this is cut off in the T5.09 book (p.411). And neither WBH and PE have a corresponding mapping table. I really have no idea what this is supposed to represent, nor how to explain any given result to anyone else.
Click to expand...


I think some of the descriptors for various scores for the Cultural values given on the infocards on TravellerMap are currently inverted.

Take Rhylanor ( http://travellermap.com/?options=58363&x=-88.768&y=64.5&scale=64 ): HASS = 7D3D

Acceptance is "D" (quite high), as would be expected for the 8 billion-sophont cosmopolitan subsector capital, which sees much off-world traffic. But the descriptor for Acceptance = D is listed on the infocard as "Xenophobic". I think this should be "Xenophilic".


According to T5.09 (p.411-412):

Homogeneity (Pop + Flux) is a measure of the degree to which members of society hold common beliefs. Members of very homogeneous cultures are in strong agreement on the fundamentals of society (usually basic rights, religion, and methods of interaction). Members of non-homogeneous cultures hold many different beliefs on the fundamentals of society.

Acceptance (Pop + Ix) is the degree of xenophobia (or xenophilia) in the culture. High Acceptance is evidenced by friendliness to outsiders and offworlders; Low Acceptance is characterized by fear or rejection of outsiders.

Strangeness (Flux + 5) is the degree of difference from the norms of interstellar society. High Strangeness is evidenced by unusual or outwardly incomprehensible actions, statements, or responses in the course daily activity. Low Strangeness reflects activities close to interstellar norms.

Symbols (Flux + TL) used by the culture may range from the concrete (idols; totems; statuary) to the abstract (symbolized belief systems; group affiliations). Expected . . . [text ends - this is an erratum]
Click to expand...
Based on this, a high score for Homogeneity (= Higher Population scores) represents a world which is fairly harmonious and is very uniform in its culture, where people are largely in agreement on most issues. A Low Score for Homogeneity means there are many differing and divergent opinions. See Vland (http://travellermap.com/?options=58363&x=-16.28&y=63.527&scale=64), which is about as monolithic and "homogeneous" of a world as one could hope for as a test case. HASS = CD7H. "C" is a high homogeneity value, which is to be expected for Vland. TravellerMap currently lists "C" as "Fragmented" (which is clearly not the case for Vland).

A high score for Acceptance (= High Population & Importance) represents a world which is Xenophilic. A Low Score for Acceptance means the culture is Xenophobic. For Vland, HASS = CD7H. "D" is a high acceptance. TravellerMap currently lists "D" as "Xenophobic".

A high score for Strangeness (Range = 0-10) represents a world whose culture is very different from what is commonly encountered on worlds across the Imperium in general. A Low Score for Strangeness means a world whose culture is very "vanilla" compared to what is commonly encountered on worlds across the Imperium in general (i.e it is about as "Solomani-Vilani Imperial Norm" as you can get). For Vland, HASS = CD7H. "7" is a middling to slightly higher than average strangness.

For Symbols the above text does nor help (as it has been truncated). I do not have the T5.00 rules in front of me, but I seem to recall that in that document the "Symbols" score was inverted from what would be expected: i.e. a high score for Symbols (= Higher TLs) implied a culture which had very "concrete" conceptualization, whereas a low Symbols score represented a culture whose conceptualization was highly abstract. For Vland, HASS = CD7H. "H" is a very high symbols value. My understanding of the Vilani is that they were very "concrete" thinkers (i.e. "Engineers and Accountants"). This would fit with my memory of High Symbols = Concrete, and Low Symbols = Abstract.
 
As a counterpoint I would bring up Ruie, a High population, balkanized world in Aramis subsector. Despite several requests they have refused to join the Imperium, and in fact distrust everyone. So the values are correct. At least for Ruie.

Culture: [ 9 A 5 7 ]
Homogeneity 9 Discordant
Acceptance A Aloof
Strangeness 5 5
Symbols 7 7

So one or the other is world(s) are incorrect. Or the underlying definition and generation is wrong.

I would recommend we go back to the original settings, from PE (page 31) which has 7 "World Character" values: Progression, Planning, Advancement, Growth, Militancy, Unity, Tolerance. These are each generated by 2D + modifiers. In general they are done in this order because some of the mods are based upon the previous version.

Based upon my read through the description, rolls, mods, and tables in PE are a duplicate of the setup from WBH.
 
If the values for the sectors were generated in accordance with T5, or permanantly converted to T5 values, keep the values as stands. Do not alter that.

On that basis, there are no labels associated with the T5 values, except for Importance and the positive or negative implications of Resource Units. Use labelling that already exists
5 Very Important
4 Important
1 - 3 Ordinary
-1 - 0 Unimportant
-2 - -3 Very Unimportant


Otherwise label away how you like. Do not change the raw data values...
 
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Diverse vs. Discordant

tjoneslo said:
Homogeneity (Pop + Flux) with a min value of 1, to 15 or 16. In WBH there is an extensiveness table. In PE there is a Unity table.
Code: 
1-3 Monlithic
4-7 Harmonious
8-11 Discorndant
12+   Fragmented
Click to expand...

I am thinking that 8-11 might be better described as "Diverse" rather than "Discordant". A non-homogeneous (i.e. diverse) group is not necessarily discordant; that would depend on the local situation.
 
Cranky Point

T5 terms are described in T5. WHy are we arguing about them?

FWIW, so far as -I- can tell, "Resources" applies ONLY TO THE WORLD STATTED OUT, and thus in this resource ONLY THE MAINWORLD. Why? Because EVERYTHING applies to the mainworld. "The Economic Extension allows the calculation of Resource Units for a world (in effect creating a world budget)." P.404, T5.09.

Symbols: In its most simplistic form, it is the number of identifiable, unique symbols or symbolic sets to be found on a world. On contemporary Earth, we could suggest that separate sets are the crescent, the cross, the star of David, etc. Or, one could argue that the importance of religion constitutes ONE LARGE SYMBOL SET, so these are all "one" symbol set. Flags would be another symbol "set." Yes, this could be clarified, especially where there is text cut off.

I liked many part of WBH, and would still use it in my own campaigns, but let me point out that its limited availability now renders it a secondary resource and method of developing worlds. In addition, I generally disagree with its attempt to move beyond the Mainworld and thus to spread out a lot. Non-Mainworlds should always be separate and secondary. Yes, that's my opinion, and yes, opinions are like butt-cheeks...every butthole has two or three...
 
Aramais said:
T5 terms are described in T5. WHy are we arguing about them?
Click to expand...
We are discussing them because they are described poorly in T5. I pulled out WBH and PE because they are the closest Traveller source. But as the discussion points out, still inaccurate.
 
I could see resemblance beetween T4 Tolerance and T5 Acceptance but you have to flip the scale. A previous post is incorrect in stating that Acceptance level A is aloof. It should be Xenophilic

Acceptance is the degree of xenophobia (or xenophilia) in the culture. High Acceptance is evidenced by friendliness to outsiders and offworlders; Low Acceptance is characterized by fear or rejection of outsiders. pg 411
Click to expand...

Adhering to MY statement of keeping T5 Values.
T5 Acceptance
1 Xenophobic
2-3 Aloof
4-6 Neutral
7-9 Friendly
10+ Xenophillic
 
tjoneslo said:
We are discussing them because they are described poorly in T5.
Click to expand...

And so poorly that we aren't even sure what high eHex values mean for Homogeneity and Acceptance. And we don't have concise descriptions for values of Strangeness and Symbols. Concretely, what should the Cultural value descriptions be for:

https://travellermap.com/world?sector=Spinward Marches&hex=1910

Nathan Brazil said:
A previous post is incorrect in stating that Acceptance level A is aloof. It should be Xenophilic
Click to expand...

Agreed. As noted above, you can see what I'm using at:

https://github.com/inexorabletash/travellermap/blob/master/world_util.js

Acceptance ranges from 1: "Extremely xenphobic" to E/F: "Extremely xenophilic"
 
var EX_LABOR_TABLE = POP_TABLE;

Are we definite that Labor in most cases represents a labor pool equal to ~10% of the population? Not pressing a case here, just asking.
 
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