New Combat rules proposal

[kilemall]

Now just a couple thoughts if you want to go down this road of simplifying while simming…

Armor is RL rated in class I through IV. Want to look at that and extrapolate the higher tech stuff.

Also want to look at joule ratings for blade weapons and note there is armor that stops bullets but not stabs.

Finally you could just download the Armory and Ordnance book which already has a custom build and tech advancement elements already done. May suit your tastes maybe not but worth a check IMO.

 

[Condottiere]

Speaking of material science, if crystaliron is harder than tungsten, diamond or steel, that probably would be the goto jacket, since it implies by the name it's still magnetic.

By technological level fourteen, bonded superdense is introduced.

Weight may not be the same as steel.

 

[HanleyTucks]

Armor is RL rated in class I through IV.

Yeah but they add "A" to some of them just to annoy us. And there's no ISO standard, various countries have their own.

So I arbitrarily made it four levels and carefully did not attach them to any particular materials or brand names or whatever. Similarly with the bangsticks.

I'm old enough to remember GURPS mailing list arguments over 9mm vs 45 and Traveller mailing list arguments over mapping 2d hex sector maps to real space and vice versa.

 

[Blue Ghost]

So Striker has a hit displacement chart as well as an armor mechanic? Is that right? I never bought Striker ... I thought the Traveller minis at the time were just awful.

 

[kilemall]

So Striker has a hit displacement chart as well as an armor mechanic? Is that right? I never bought Striker ... I thought the Traveller minis at the time were just awful.

No it’s got the minor/major/mortal results. It’s a fast results wargame after all. It’s conflated along armor pen/damage alone, with high die rolls possibly indicating multi hits with auto/shotgun fire.

I home-ruled one and adjusted it so on average one will get nearly identical die numbers on unarmored targets, less so to nothing on some hits and greater damage from skilled shooters/wielders.

 

[McPerth]

Speaking of material science, if crystaliron is harder than tungsten, diamond or steel, that probably would be the goto jacket, since it implies by the name it's still magnetic.

By technological level fourteen, bonded superdense is introduced.

Weight may not be the same as steel.

Sure it would make good AP rounds, that would likely just go through a human body, not fragment or deforme to increase damge,(albeit they can kill if they hit a vital organ)...

What I see difficult (to say the leat) is that the sam eround that has good AP capacity has also good stopping power, because, as I understand, the characteristics the former needs are opposite to the ones needed for the latter. Am I worng in this?

 

[Condottiere]

1. I wouldn't know.

2. We could place a tiny brain in it, which could help with steering and detecting a pressure differential, or sense when it's more or less in the centre of the target, and go to pieces.

3. But, we're dealing with dumb ammunition here, so it has to be basic physics.

4. One option, could be a Roman pilum.

5. The armoured cap would be dense and sturdy enough to go through body armour and maybe ten centimetres of flesh, but then be brittle enough to detach, forcing the core to move faster than the cap, and being obstructed, try and move around it, dumping that potential energy into the target.

 

[whartung]

Speaking of material science, if crystaliron is harder than tungsten, diamond or steel, that probably would be the goto jacket, since it implies by the name it's still magnetic.

By technological level fourteen, bonded superdense is introduced.

Weight may not be the same as steel.

For munitions, you want density, not necessarily hardness. That's why modern systems use Depleted Uranium.

In FF&S, Bonded SD is almost twice as heavy as steel.

Regarding the GR, regardless of the density of the core, it still only masses 4 grams.

 

[whartung]

Speaking of mud, guns, and AHL...

When going through the AHL rules, I noticed this little special rule stating that if using HE or HEAP, wound severity bumps up (so light wounds become serious, serious becomes dead). In AHL, one serious wound puts you unconscious, but you have a 1:6 chance to come to in subsequent turns.

I was curious how this affected the outcome. Notably, the ACR can use HE or DS. HE has a lower penetration (2), but hits harder than DS penetration of 4.

So, I wrote a simple sim. Essentially it takes combatants geared with a rifle and armor, puts them in a bull ring, and has them fight it out until one is unconscious or dead. Take a 1000 folks, send them in to Thunderdome, and count up the stats. The sim takes into account the effects of Light Wounding (cumulative -DMs, potential unconsciousness).

cloth acr-ds
Alive 496 Unconscious 475 Dead 29
cloth acr-he
Alive 504 Unconscious 496 Dead 0

With cloth armor, it's basically a dead heat, save that HE is going to outright kill folks.

Against combat armor, the DS has a slight advantage.

combat-armor acr-ds
Alive 532 Unconscious 468 Dead 0
combat-armor acr-he
Alive 468 Unconscious 532 Dead 0

The DS is decisive against Battle Dress (assuming they don't run out of ammo). The HE is punching though enough for its damage bonus to make a difference.

battle-dress acr-ds
Alive 769 Unconscious 231 Dead 0
battle-dress acr-he
Alive 231 Unconscious 769 Dead 0

The gauss rifle is decisive in all scenarios.

cloth acr-he
Alive 397 Unconscious 566 Dead 37
cloth gauss
Alive 603 Unconscious 366 Dead 31

cloth acr-ds
Alive 377 Unconscious 596 Dead 27
cloth gauss
Alive 623 Unconscious 377 Dead 0

I skip the HE from here, as the DS is better against the tougher armors

combat-armor acr-ds
Alive 254 Unconscious 746 Dead 0
combat-armor gauss
Alive 746 Unconscious 254 Dead 0

battle-dress acr-ds
Alive 166 Unconscious 834 Dead 0
battle-dress gauss
Alive 834 Unconscious 166 Dead 0

And for when the Imperial Marines come visiting your backwater world.

cloth acr-he
Alive 39 Unconscious 895 Dead 66
battle-dress gauss
Alive 961 Unconscious 39 Dead 0

Just gets...messy.

Simply, in AHL, penetration is king. The Gauss rifle offers the highest penetration behind RAM grenades, auto cannons, and energy weapons.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I think I should point out that ACRs and Gauss deliver kinetic energy, whereas LASER and High Energy Weapons deliver thermal. I think that's actually pointed out in Book 4.

 

[mike wightman]

Wound bumping is also present in Striker:

Exploding Rounds: All contact hits on a soldier from exploding rounds which
cause wounds become one level more serious than rolled. Light wounds become
serious wounds; serious wounds become death. No effect remains no effect.
Exploding rounds are HE, HEAP, KEAPER, CBM, lasers, and plasma and fusion
guns. All direct fire hits not otherwise specified are contact hits.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Does Striker list a reason for including energy weapons on that list?

 

[kilemall]

Does Striker list a reason for including energy weapons on that list?

No just is listed RAW.

Using my sliding die with pen rolls, the laser rifle for instance delivers 5d on unarmored average (center mass and high pen). That yields death/near death often enough. The 1d add on covers HE and other trauma well enough. Most grenades and other anti personnel weapons can be treated as shrapnel and use the multi hit mechanic already there.

 

[McPerth]

So, I wrote a simple sim. Essentially it takes combatants geared with a rifle and armor, puts them in a bull ring, and has them fight it out until one is unconscious or dead. Take a 1000 folks, send them in to Thunderdome, and count up the stats. The sim takes into account the effects of Light Wounding (cumulative -DMs, potential unconsciousness).

cloth acr-ds
Alive 496 Unconscious 475 Dead 29
cloth acr-he
Alive 504 Unconscious 496 Dead 0

With cloth armor, it's basically a dead heat, save that HE is going to outright kill folks.

I'm afraid I either missundrestand the tables or you.

As I understand the tables, with DS there are 504 incapacited targets (29 of them dead), while with HE three are no deaths and 496 incapacited, so it does not seem that HW "outright kill folks"...

Similar problems with other tables, where the numbers (as I read them at least) don't match with your conclusions...

 

[whartung]

AHL doesn't bump energy weapons, so they figured that out after AHL was published.

Lasers "explode" because they transfer a lot of energy in to the target all at once. Simply, image a very high power microwave and a potato or an egg.

Plasma and Fusion are listed because, well, THEY'RE PLASMA AND FUSION BLOBS. Those are just plain hurtful.

 

[whartung]

Yea the table is a bit backward.

The entries should be read "For those with this weapon, this is how they fared."

In that first table, those with the DS were not able to outright kill any of their opponents, while they suffered 29 dead from the HE wounds.

 

[McPerth]

Yea the table is a bit backward.

The entries should be read "For those with this weapon, this is how they fared."

In that first table, those with the DS were not able to outright kill any of their opponents, while they suffered 29 dead from the HE wounds.

Oh thanks. Now I see... I understood that was the result of (listed armor) vs (listed weapon).

Now it all makes sense, and, as I said, I missundertood the tables.

 

[Blue Ghost]

No it’s got the minor/major/mortal results. It’s a fast results wargame after all. It’s conflated along armor pen/damage alone, with high die rolls possibly indicating multi hits with auto/shotgun fire.

I home-ruled one and adjusted it so on average one will get nearly identical die numbers on unarmored targets, less so to nothing on some hits and greater damage from skilled shooters/wielders.

Okay, thanks. There was a discussion here some 15 years back as to whether energy weapons had a recoil or "impact" upon a target. I can't recall the end result. It was about the same time as the "mercenary grade" verse "military grade" energy packs for laser and Gauss weapons.

 

[kilemall]

Okay, thanks. There was a discussion here some 15 years back as to whether energy weapons had a recoil or "impact" upon a target. I can't recall the end result. It was about the same time as the "mercenary grade" verse "military grade" energy packs for laser and Gauss weapons.

The higher damage is well founded given the exploding superheated drill tunnel effect. Thorough discussion on atomic rockets.

While we are at it I did a bit more research on the wounds and differing laser wavelengths looking through lab/industrial safety manuals. There is a whole safety glass for eyes thing that suggests vulnerability and possibly sealed eye shields as SOP.

Also suggests reflec should either be wavelength related or heat based.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Loose tangent; I do believe that the UN and Geneva convention have outlawed "blinding weapons", or ostensibly laser weaponry that's solely designed or even as a secondary function that blinds soldiers on the battlefield.

Looking at the combat matrix ... the rules, as written way back when and when I first started using them, are adequate for what they do; i.e. a good functioning combat rules' set. Even the armor description is pretty good. But, what I and others got a little frustrated with was the fact that there was a lack of granularity with weapons. Part of that is just the 2d6 mechanic, and part of it is the applying wounds / damage to states from weapons that are usually 3d damage.

What strikes me is that if your weapon is powerful enough, then it has enough punch to get through your armor. But if it doesn't, then your armor protects you assuming the round strikes your armor. Eh, but there's no real "random factor" or chance mechanic to determine whether you're protected or not other than the DMs.

As an optional rule I might suggest an energy absorption range for various armor, and then an energy value assigned to a round from a weapon. And that both values are modified by Tech-Level, such that a TL-10 body pistol has a greater chance of penetrating a TL-11 cloth armor than a body pistol from our TL-7,8,9 era. Or that a TL7 fire arm has little to no chance of penetrating TL14 combat armor or Soli Battledress, unless maybe the weapon is using some kind of high-tech (TL13) propellant, or some specialized round that fits the weapon's chamber.

The truth is that after exploring this topic it may just be too much game for the game itself, but I was curious if there could be a "quick and dirty" or some other clever solution to the armor quandary.

The combat round is stout enough in terms of phases. I would not want to turn nor suggest optional combat rules that require more phases, like Star Fleet Battles ultimately became. Traveller players are typically not SFB types, though the two may overlap. The Traveller combat player, from my experience, likes their combat clean and relatively quick with some adjustments for special gear ... like AP rounds or some other doo-dad that gives them or the opposition an edge.

I suppose another solution is just to write up customizable equipment and describe how it behaves or works in combat; i.e. that special ablative that works not only against LASER weapons but also plasma and fusion weaponry. Or that Particle Projection "hand" canon that goes through some types of armor but not others.

Like I say, it was a pet peeve of mine, but I guess there's no real solution other than to house rule some extreme situations.