New blood or lack thereof.

[jfwking]

Having seen the results of the survey on JTAS and the general answers given in this forumn it seems to me that Traveller has a problem.

Its one I have encountered before and which has become more common and more damaging over the last few (Games workshop/munchkin) and PC/console years.

The results of the survey were that 70% odd of the Traveller players were long term players and only 1% were new. Many of the people here are long term Traveller players who started play with one of the older versions. Most people who have started T20 are or were old version Traveller players.

There seems to be a serious lack of new players being bought into the fold. Not critical but still something that should be looked out.

New players expands the buying market, brings in new perspectives and ideas and gets a few people round the gaming table who aren't over 30

Most of the gaming clubs I visit have the same look, everyone is late 20s and up. The few youngsters are either someones children or they came in for the warhammer battle that night.

Perhaps my view of this is slightly off, it may well be that there are a great many new players and youngsters out there and they just don't go to the old foggy clubs I visit.

What do you all think. Do we have a shortage of new blood and should we be doing something about it and if so what ?

 

[CarlP]

Well, I'm trying to raise my own players.

I have a 12-year-old godson, and I'm running games for him and his friends. I just recently abandoned a D&D game, because they were having more fun with the miniatures. I'm hoping when they settle down in a few years, that we can go back to the rpg.

As for the miniatures, I attend 2-3 miniature gaming conventions each year, and I've noticed that they are becoming more and more child friendly as time passes. It's not just that my godson is getting older. The games that are available to the young ones are increasing in number, and their lower age is dropping, too.

So it seems like there is an effort to bring in new blood. I'm doing my part--I hope to have a solid core of 4-6 players in a couple of years. Maybe 2-3 years after that, they'll be at the point where they can start reffing games for me to play in!

 

[Fulminata]

There are a lot of factors why there aren't new Traveller players out there. The single biggest reason being that pen and paper RPGs simply aren't as popular as they used to be.

Outside of that, the biggest problem I see for getting new players into Traveller is the cost of entry. T20 requires a book that costs $45, and that's assuming that the gamer already has a D20 PHB which costs another $30. GURPS is even worse at $23 for the Traveller book, $30 for the core GURPS book, and another $25 for GURPS Space. That's a lot of cash to drop on a new game just to try it out.

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by Fulminata:
Outside of that, the biggest problem I see for getting new players into Traveller is the cost of entry.

The cost is really no worsse than for any other d20 gam these days.

The real killer is the huge overhead of background and setting info for Traveller. A heavily detailed setting can be intimidating for players. Worse, the recent core core books tend to assume that players will be at leats somewhat familiar with the setting assumptions from the outset.

Note that unless you've played Traveller before or are willing to locate and convert material from other systems, there's really no way to actually play Traveller with only the core T20 book. This is a huge turnoff for people looking at the game in the store. They don't know thwre's a website with some setting info (and even that's really insufficient, IMO, since it gives you only one real type of game to play.)

GURPS Traveller suffers from the same basic problem, though it at least has encyclopedia data.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
I dont think the cost has a great deal to do with it, Most computer games cost 100 dollars (Aust).
As far as i can tell young people (under 18) dont have the patience to make up a game and the GM dosnt have the time.
So possibly short modules could be released to help young people learn to play (wouldnt hurt the GM to).
BYE

 

[lightsenshi]

IMO it has to do with social factors rather than economic ones. While the average RPG costs less than a hundred bucks, the average RPG also requires creativity and thought. The average video game does NOT.

Hence the biggest factor is that video games contribute to the shoot and kill style of gaming. A good (or even decently run) RPG will require good social skills, logical thinking, and the willingness to "lose" sometimes.

 

[kafka47]

Sadly, the problem is also demographic. Trying to get people enthuasic about Science Fiction is a difficult task. When there were not 5 versions of Star Trek on the TV, when Asimov was not bastardized in Bicenntenial Man, or when everyone's view of psionics was not the Jedi Mind Trick...was a very different era than today. When I check out our local Science Fiction bookshop or the SF section at the World's Biggest Bookstore, there is hardly anyone under 20 checking out the shelves.

I am not saying that the under 20 doesn't read, but, with the all encompassing video market, there are people who own the whole B5 series on DVD but do not care to read those things that inspired B5. I think the older set get the enjoyment from seeing things that they had long imagined or role played come to life. Whereas the younger group want the quick and the dirty, reliving of famous "scenes".

RPGs without the gloss are not likely really to appeal to a younger set. That is why I think the T20 rulebook is fantastic. It combines the action of the new with the rules of the old. I am hoping the Quicklink will continue to use illustration/artwork to bring the worlds that we imagined in CT come to life.

 

[Richard Saunders]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Sadly, the problem is also demographic. Trying to get people enthuasic about Science Fiction is a difficult task. When there were not 5 versions of Star Trek on the TV, when Asimov was not bastardized in Bicenntenial Man, or when everyone's view of psionics was not the Jedi Mind Trick...was a very different era than today. When I check out our local Science Fiction bookshop or the SF section at the World's Biggest Bookstore, there is hardly anyone under 20 checking out the shelves.

I am not saying that the under 20 doesn't read, but, with the all encompassing video market, there are people who own the whole B5 series on DVD but do not care to read those things that inspired B5. I think the older set get the enjoyment from seeing things that they had long imagined or role played come to life. Whereas the younger group want the quick and the dirty, reliving of famous "scenes".

RPGs without the gloss are not likely really to appeal to a younger set. That is why I think the T20 rulebook is fantastic. It combines the action of the new with the rules of the old. I am hoping the Quicklink will continue to use illustration/artwork to bring the worlds that we imagined in CT come to life.

Bugger fat finger syndrom.
where can i get the ful B5 set on dvd.
Bicenntenial man was not a bad movie just not as good as the book.
NOW Starship troopers was a bad movie but a great book, why do i visualise Imperial space marines (Drop troops) when i read the book, and Forever war (the book) when i visualis the scale of the imperium.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by Lionel Deffries:
Bugger fat finger syndrom.

NP Lionel, btw the edit icon (page and pen) at the top of each post will let you delete (check box on the edit page) your own post if you, for example, hit the add reply in error. Or if you have a short p.s. you can use the edit feature to just tack it on instead of adding a whole new post. Just fyi, and welcome aboard.

 

[Loki]

This subject probably should be posted in The Lone Star discussion line but here goes:

How about this theory: There are so many young gamers today, and with PCs pretty reasonably priced, a large number of them are playing computer games rather then the DM’d paper & pencil games?

Crazy? I started with board games in the 60’s, expanded to do miniatures on the tabletop, then got my first computer, an Atari (the Pong and Coleco Vision don’t count). As the technology got better my computers went the same way. Macintosh (yes, for a while there the Mac was THE computer playing platform but then the PC caught up and left it in the dust) became a 286, then 386, then a 486 and now a 1.7 (yea, I know I’ve been bypassed once again and need to get a 2.4 or 2.8 to keep pace). The quality (always an arguable opinion) of computer games’ graphics and depth of play (if the game takes 100+ hours I’m there!) just kept getting better and better. The 2 Megatraveller games were fantastic and I had high hopes for #3.

I was into Traveler from the start but lack of time and players kept my games in the solo arena. Then I started to do more and more computer games (D&D stuff, Jagged Alliance 2, Civ, Magic Candle, etc) but I avoid the RTS stuff because I just don’t have the hand-eye coordination skills I had when I was younger.

If you visit the web sites for the horde of computer games out there you find a huge number of followers who I think prefer to PLAY then do the manual paperwork required by D&D and Traveller, etc. Yes, there are a lot of followers for those paper games but, as it was pointed out here, the number of new recruits is a bit sparse. Heck, the number of visitors here at times looks a bit light. Of course, opinions are anything but sparse but that is what makes this forum and the game it follows so interesting.

Sorry if I sound preach-y but I too lament the lack of new blood. Could it be that they are out there (the lurkers) and are afraid to post? If they are afraid they might look a little or sound a little stupid .... it doesn't stop me (just look at a few of my posts).

 

[grendelttroll]

I remember when there were only 2 real RPG's out there - D&D and Traveller.

I see the RPG world now and it is a different beast. The 2 Origional greats have been hit hard. Both games' origional companies shut down. Both games have been picked up by new companies under similar game systems. Both, I think, have emerged from their "Long Nights" and are enjoying a New beginning.

I always felt that the previous versions after CT were not really designed for the average new gamer to get into it. I think that the D20 version might break this habit. CT was designed to be a generic sci-fi RPG, with the Imperium Universe being optional. T20 claims, pretty much, the same thing.

Keep in mind the CCG's (collectible card games). Most of the kids around my area play those about 4 times more than RPG's. I have interested a few with my D&D campaign. I am going to sic Traveller on them, once my rulebook gets here.

Anyway, don't lose heart. Evangelise Traveller. If you think you know someone who isn't gaming yet but would probably enjoy it, be the one to show them. It was hard for me, at first. I was one of those real insular persons who stuck solely to my gaming buddies. My term away from home in the Army sorta changed that (had to get new players every time I transfered posts). A lot of those people I met never played before. I hope I taught them well. I hope I am teaching these new guys well.

 

[Elliot]

To get newbies in there is the need for short scenarios - in the style of LLB's or AD&D modules - grand campaigns are cool for the long term but adventures in the style of the A1-4, FASA scenarious or LLB's make up a quick evening.

 

[kafka47]

B5 on DVD, ask any of my shady friends who have download the whole series from the Shadowy corners of the Internet. More I cannot say. But, it is there for the taking if you have cable and the patience...

And, they in turn have transposed it onto CD ROM-W and a friend of a friend to DVD.

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by kafka47:
B5 on DVD, ask any of my shady friends who have download the whole series from the Shadowy corners of the Internet. More I cannot say. But, it is there for the taking if you have cable and the patience...

And, they in turn have transposed it onto CD ROM-W and a friend of a friend to DVD.

the first season is out on DVD in a 5 DVD package.

 

[Minotaur]

What you do to get new players is get children that play
to get friends to come, like me

 

[trader jim]

I agree with ELLIOTT, ther should be a whole series of short, sweet, fast, dangerous, funny,
challenging introductry senerios. the LLB are GREAT, but we should have upgraded T20 ones also.
any one out there a good writer??

 

[Falkayn]

Originally posted by trader jim:
I agree with ELLIOTT, ther should be a whole series of short, sweet, fast, dangerous, funny,
challenging introductry senerios. the LLB are GREAT, but we should have upgraded T20 ones also.
any one out there a good writer??

Well ... QuikLink are working on that with their Gateway stuff. The current thinking in the RPG business world is that people want game worlds to play in - so the focus is on providing all the material they need so there is less work required to ref a game.

That makes a certain kind of sense, I mean my D&D game has become a lot easier to run now that I'm just runnig pre-prepared adventures in the Forgotten Realms, but at the same time the players appreciated the work I had put into my home world (but not enough to contribute significantly themselves).

But as a ref, I like games that give me lots of material to use that are reasonably setting neutral. In this sense I like the old LBB adventures as a lot of them were fairly self-contained and made few assumptions about the game world. IMHO, sales would probably be helped by this as people using different game systems or worlds (particularly d20 and/or GURPS) might like the stuff enough to use it in their own games, even though they aren't actually running Traveller.

I think WOTC's new emphasis on miniatures is an attempt to tap into the wargaming market, which still seems fairly strong (at least for Warhammer). The kids who get into that might like switching to RPGs as they mature into uni students (much as I did back in the 80s).

 

[grendelttroll]

Yep, the astrocharts are top priority. Most people find chartmaking pretty tedious.

I am sure, once they get the sourcebook out, adventures will be around the corner.

Does anyone know if they will allow other companies to produce T20 material?

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Grendel T. Troll:
Does anyone know if they will allow other companies to produce T20 material?

As long as they're licenced for Traveller or pass through QLI (which is licenced) for publishing, my guess is they would allow it.

Hunter could hop in on this question and answer it more formally

 

[MichaelL65]

I wonder if it isn't the Hard Science setting that make Traveller a bit less appealing to new gamers. I have to admit that back in 1981 (or so) when I got my first LBB set I was somewhat disappointed with that aspect. But since I had spent a week's worth of my paper-route money on it I was going to make it work.

Now I know that the Hard Science aspect is what appeals to most Traveller fans (and it's by no means a bad thing), but for many younger SF fans who are interested in RPGs (the ones who grew up with Star Wars, Star Trek and other 'science fantacy' type stuff labled as science fiction), it just may not be their cup of joe.

If you change Traveller to cater to them, you might gain some new blood. But then it really wouldn't be Traveller anymore.