Badenov
SOC-13
I would read that as the children are Soc -1 while the parent is alive and holds the title and inherits the title (and full Soc) upon the parent's death.
Nepotism: Regarding Nobles
- Thread starter gchuck
- Start date
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Hmm no only one inherits the title, rest remain a step back.
Badenov
SOC-13
Yes. Sorry if I spoke imprecisely.
Black Vulmea
SOC-12
Ick. Hard pass.
Not in my wheelhouse, either.
Anything earlier, anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
There is, but it will take time to track down. It has been around for quite a while.
Black Vulmea
SOC-12
If you run across a reference you can point me toward, I'd appreciate it, but don't go out of your way - nobility IMTU is canon only in the broadest strokes, so I have my own take but I'm curious to understand more of how MWM approached this.
Will do.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Regardless of your opinion of the article, the Sources list is probably useful: https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Nobility
The T5 approach is described in mechanical terms in the rulebooks, and expanded in the Nobles issues of Imperiallines. As of now, those are on DriveThru. Those specific articles are not edition specific other than helping to define what the T5 compliant codes on Traveller Map mean, and were written with Marc looking over my shoulder.
T5 modified the GT Nobles approach as far as assignment of High or Landed Nobility (the nobles OF a particular world), putting a Knight on every world that wasn't barren or interdicted instead of a Baron. Much of the GT approach is otherwise still present. While the GT universality of Barons has been replaced, there are still a LOT of Landed Barons in the Imperium.
The GT and T5 approaches were informed by a defining MegaTraveller article in one of the DGP magazine issues. Given that the DGP crew were still writing to the "Classic Plus" mindset that Mega started with and were writing for the pre-Rebellion Imperium 90% of the time, theirs is likely the oldest source with any cache of Canon other than the original (and brief) Library Data entries. There were Classic era articles on the Nobility, but all in various non-GDW magazines that are now hard to find even existential evidence of, never mind specific articles.
The T5 approach is described in mechanical terms in the rulebooks, and expanded in the Nobles issues of Imperiallines. As of now, those are on DriveThru. Those specific articles are not edition specific other than helping to define what the T5 compliant codes on Traveller Map mean, and were written with Marc looking over my shoulder.
T5 modified the GT Nobles approach as far as assignment of High or Landed Nobility (the nobles OF a particular world), putting a Knight on every world that wasn't barren or interdicted instead of a Baron. Much of the GT approach is otherwise still present. While the GT universality of Barons has been replaced, there are still a LOT of Landed Barons in the Imperium.
The GT and T5 approaches were informed by a defining MegaTraveller article in one of the DGP magazine issues. Given that the DGP crew were still writing to the "Classic Plus" mindset that Mega started with and were writing for the pre-Rebellion Imperium 90% of the time, theirs is likely the oldest source with any cache of Canon other than the original (and brief) Library Data entries. There were Classic era articles on the Nobility, but all in various non-GDW magazines that are now hard to find even existential evidence of, never mind specific articles.
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GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
That's not an uncommon approach, as the structures, powers, responsibilities, etc of the nobility were pretty vague through Classic and only incidentally detailed in MegaTraveller despite that edition's narrative being powered by the Nobility.
Marc lays out some of his modern vision in his novel, Agent of the Imperium. One full chapter and an incidental followup a bit later.
I'm not necessarily a fan of this rule, there are a couple of reasons. "Landed Noble" titles are comparatively rare in Traveller. Most Nobles are merit or service titles that don't have a fief. I do not believe there are more than a million landed gentry in the Imperium of less than 12,000 worlds.
IMTU if a character begins with a SOC or 10+ they roll 2D6-EDU bonus. So If I have a SOC 11 but an EDU of 5 that's 2D6-1. On a 12 the character is part of a landed family. That means the Noble can still be an idiot, but lots of idiots are "educated". If they are part of a landed family and roll a 12 again they are the heir. So about 1 in 700 "Nobles" are landed Nobles IMTU.
IMTU if a character begins with a SOC or 10+ they roll 2D6-EDU bonus. So If I have a SOC 11 but an EDU of 5 that's 2D6-1. On a 12 the character is part of a landed family. That means the Noble can still be an idiot, but lots of idiots are "educated". If they are part of a landed family and roll a 12 again they are the heir. So about 1 in 700 "Nobles" are landed Nobles IMTU.
Black Vulmea
SOC-12
Understand that the Noble Extension in world UWPs (like on Traveller Map) are EXCLUSIVELY the Enfeoffed Landed Nobles for that World. Honour (including Legacy and Cadet/Familial titles) as well as Ceremonial/Rank titles of Nobles with a Bureaucratic Administrative See who just happen to reside on-world are NOT noted in the extension. So a world could have many more nobles on the world than the extension indicates; they are just not Landed (and cannot style themselves the "Noble OF" the world).
Also, the term "Landed" does not necessarily mean that other types of Nobles (Ceremonial/Rank or Honour) don't have a Land Grant or Estates, it just means that the Lands are not tied to a Fief or See (an administrative responsibility) associated with oversight or representation of that world (and thus carries no authority outside the boundaries of the actual lands held). A Landed Noble is Enfoeffed - i.e. His/Her Land Grant includes authority and official administrative duties and perquisites associated with the world or within the subsector. Other nobles may have lands granted, but they are just estates and revenue sources with privileges and perquisites on the actual territorial grants.
Also, the term "Landed" does not necessarily mean that other types of Nobles (Ceremonial/Rank or Honour) don't have a Land Grant or Estates, it just means that the Lands are not tied to a Fief or See (an administrative responsibility) associated with oversight or representation of that world (and thus carries no authority outside the boundaries of the actual lands held). A Landed Noble is Enfoeffed - i.e. His/Her Land Grant includes authority and official administrative duties and perquisites associated with the world or within the subsector. Other nobles may have lands granted, but they are just estates and revenue sources with privileges and perquisites on the actual territorial grants.
Thanks for the References /Quotes.
Keep in mind that some of the terms and assignments have changed under T5 since Classic Traveller, and in some cases, T5 and CT can be harmonized (although at first glance it may seem like they can't).
Note that the terms "Fief", and "is associated with . . . " are not the same thing.
- A fief in CT is clearly a grant of land-territory on a world, but without specifying the noble's relationship to the world (if any).
- To be "associated with" a world or worlds is a rather vague description, and could mean a number of things, otherwise undefined.
- We know from elsewhere that a Duke "associated with a Subsector" means he is the subsector governor.
- We also know that Interstellar Government begins at the subsector level (the lowest rung), so Marquises, and Counts "associations" are not part of interstellar government (in the proper sense).
- Certain Baron's "fiefs" are clearly defined, without specifying a role.
- The "fiefs" of Nobles higher than Baron are not specified.
T5 has a slightly different take on the Noble structure, going back to the nebulously defined basics of CT and building from there. Marc (since T5) has used the term "Fief" (in documents that I have seen) to imply the Noble See or world-assignment associated with a Landed Noble's Land Grant. Thus, the "Viscount of Regina" will have a noble Land Grant as a Viscount, but as THE Viscount of Regina it will be entailled with responsibilities associated with a "Landed Title" (a Fief). There may be other Viscounts resident on Regina, and they may have Land Grants that were awarded with their title, but they are not "enfoeffed" - they are not the Viscount OF the world. They just have an honor title and some lands, or an administrative posting because they are qualified to hold it by their title (which happens to include some lands).
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So the Duke of Regina is a Landed Noble who has Noble Lands scattered across the entire Spinward Marches, but concentrated on Regina, and to a lesser extent throughout the Regina Subsector. He draws revenues from and has economic clout in those areas of his Lands on those worlds and can engineer economic ties between the worlds that have his land holdings on them and through them. As a Greater Duke, he has the enfeoffment of the Subsector Capital World, Regina (which is the source of his landholdings). Along with this enfeoffment of the Subsector Capital World (tied to the Land Grants) is the associated responsibility of the Administrative See of Subsector Governor.
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Per Imperiallines #7 and #8, some Archdukes may also appoint Lesser Barons as well as Baronets and Knights. But such Barons rank with but behind Imperial Barons, and are NOT Peers.1 This gives rise to the concept of Baronages (containing the roll of all of the Barons and Baronets of a given Archduke's Domain). A total of 8 Baronages would exist within the Imperium - One for each of the seven Archdukes of the Domains, and the Imperial Baronage for the Emperor as Emperor (who also controls the Baronage of Sylea).
Curiously, since Imperial Landed Baronets can now represent certain Imperial Worlds and have a vote in the Moot on their behalf, their status is nebulous - are they "Peers" or not? Are they considered to have "Special access" to the Moot, without being Peers proper, or are Landed Baronets specifically elevated by special dispensation to the Peerage (whereas Archducal Barons are not Peers)?
Curiously, since Imperial Landed Baronets can now represent certain Imperial Worlds and have a vote in the Moot on their behalf, their status is nebulous - are they "Peers" or not? Are they considered to have "Special access" to the Moot, without being Peers proper, or are Landed Baronets specifically elevated by special dispensation to the Peerage (whereas Archducal Barons are not Peers)?
1 (This is similar to how English Earls Palatine could appoint their own Barons in their territories, but such Barons were inferior to Royal Barons).
Janitor_Prime
SOC-11
That is a conflation of Patent and Charter. Those are separate. The Title and priviledges come from the Patent, the Lands and Rights come from the Charter.
Was I dealing with Patent vs. Charter?
I was specifying how Traveller has described Nobility in the Imperium through various editions and highlighting the fact that the model is NOT based on Medieval Nobility, but rather is loosely based post-Renaissance aristocracy (i.e. "Age of Sail") combined with elements of the Late Roman Empire ("Dux", "Comes", etc.). The Imperium is NOT Europe, and certainly not Medieval Europe.
Simply put, Traveller has never used the term "Charter" in regard to Imperial Nobility in the GDW rulesets, even if the concept is there. CT made the distinction of Letters Patent vs. Letter of Enfeoffment. But T5 conceptually replaced the term "Fief" with "Land Grant", and Mark has since used the term "Fief" in regard to what he calls (in Imperial usage) the ""Active (Landed) Noble" (i.e. the Landed Noble who is officially associated with the world and represents it before the Moot).
- There is the Patent of Nobility with its privileges
- There is the Grant of Land (or equivalent financial remuneration) that accompanies the Patent - call it a Charter.
- In the case of a "Landed Charter" the responsibilities of Imperial oversight, and representation of the associated primary world are tied to the Land Grant, and the Charter is called a Fief in its usage in the Third Imperium (and in the case of a Greater Duke), the Fief of the Subsector Capital World and its Land Grants includes the Administrative See of Subsector Governor.
that's the same way I read it.
Janitor_Prime
SOC-11
Yes.
The Title comes from the Patent. The Fief comes from the Charter. The person can have one or the other in addition to both. A person can hold multiples of each as well.
The Title comes with some perks, Rights not afforded commoners, such as exemption from some kinds of crime or taxation. The Title may come with some duties, such as acting as a judge, tax assessor, board of trustees member, government administration.
The Charter is the Fief, that comes with a boat load of responsibilities that may not even pay dividends to the Holder. The most common spoken is the Land Charter. The Land being intended as the income generator for the Noble running (if they can). You may get little for a Charter to run a hospital as the Regent serving the poor and educating the medics for the Navy. To be clear, a Charter in not only land. A Charter can be a portion of the asteroid belt, a financial institution, a permanent portion of the high orbital, the manufacturing or refining rights to all material gathered.
Fief vs "associated with. Yes, why dispute that? The Fief is direct and association reflects positive or negative social influence. A noble can have a Fief on one planet and very strong association with another from military or civil service. More over, a person can have a estate on another planet thus being associated that was purchased not given.
Janitor_Prime
SOC-11
Does this matter? It is Europe, but not that Europe? Is it Italian vs French or Russian vs Spanish. I would be excited to read those Patents and Charter, but I am not aware of many that are published. British peerage is referenced most because it is documented best due to the many legal maneuvers of past century and a half.
None of this even went down the garden path to Principalities. Monaco is lovely, btw.
Further, Page 34, Library Data, "All nobility is part of the feudal system of Imperial government. Nobles, upon receiving their patent or upon confirming their inheritance when coming of age, swear continuing loyalty to the Imperium, to the Emperor, and to the Emperor's successors."
Page 36, Library Data, " Fiefs are granted in a Letter of Enfeoffment separate from the patent of nobility. Fiefs are granted to the individual at the discretion of the Emperor and remain the Emperor's possessions. However, the fief conveys the right to use the land, to rent or lease it out and collect income from it. The fief is a convenient method for the Emperor to reward certain nobles. " The full name of Charter is "Charter of Enfeoffment . The fundamental difference being the Charter is more elaborate, more detailed, a document written in formally legal way. The Letter vs the Charter, the first states who operates (the Emperor owns) the second details how something is operated.
