Need "weights" for pop/tech level combos

[daryen]

I am trying to an analysis of some small interstellar governments. I am trying to get a feel for the "strength" of each one. I have the world count for each government, but that doesn't mean much as a single hi-pop/hi-tech world can "out weight" a dozen lo-pop worlds of any tech level.

I have found all of the hi-pop worlds (9+), and have noted the tech level of each of them. Now I need a way to "weigh" them in regards to each other.

For example, let's assume a 9F world is worth a "1". (Or whatever. You get the idea.) What is an AF worth? An AC? A 9D? Is there any point where a world with a population of 8 is relevant, or is even an 8F too tiny to compare against a world with a population of 9?

 

[Malenfant]

Depends on what your government system is, doesn't it?

You might have a system where each world gets one vote, no matter what the population - or you might have one where each world gets 1 vote per hundred million people, or something like that. Or maybe each region on a high population world gets its own vote?

 

[daryen]

Sorry for not being clear. I am not worried about the internal politics.

What I am looking at is more "economic", "industrial" and "military" in nature. Like outta TCS or something.

For example, if I have two twelve world polities, and the first one has an AF world, and the second one doesn't have a world with a population above an 8, then the first polity is way more powerful, regardless of what its other 11 worlds look like.

For that matter, the AF world by itself is more powerful than the second polity above.

Going with that reasoning, how does an AE world compare to a 9F world? How about an AD world to a 9F world?

Also, I understand that the population multiplier can change things. For the sake of discussion, just assume all worlds in this discussion have a multiplier of 1.

 

[eiladayn]

Are you looking for a chart such as the one in TCS for determining military potential for say, industrial and economic potential?

Pappy

 

[daryen]

I think I am just asking the question wrong.

The base question is this: Is there a way I can determine the relative value of things across tech levels? I am looking both for GDP ratios and for combat "potential" ratios.

In the case of GDP, how much more effective is 1 billion TL F workers than 1 billion TL D workers? (Or for other TL comparisons?) Yes, there are some charts on this in TCS and in GT:FT. Unfortunately, TCS includes starport in the deal, and just assumes a 5% difference per TL/starport class. GT:FT would probably be useful if they would have given a quick sidebar on TTL ratios instead of just GTL ratios.

In the case of ships, how much more effective is 1,000,000 dtons of TL F combat ships than 1,000,000 dtons of TL D combat ships? (Again, going through all the TL comparisons.) I have never really seen this addressed anywhere.

To show where I am going with this, let's assume there are three interstellar polities. I will express their size in billions of people (i.e. "workers") at given TLs. Assume their navies are directly proportional to their populations.

IP1: 18B pop at TL F, 8B pop at TL E
IP2: 8B pop at TL F, 18B pop at TL E
IP3: 9B pop at TL F, 3B pop at TL E

If IP1 and IP2 face off, how much of a disadvantage is IP2 at? Is it a slam dunk, or is still close enough to give IP1 pause to think?

I figure someone out there has less of a life than I do and has already given this some thought.

 

[eiladayn]

Could you just use the Tech Level as a multiplier for the manufacturer and for a divider for the consumer end and use the base credit worth (Book list prices) for the base line prices?

Is that an answer?

Pappy

 

[tjoneslo]

I'm not sure there is one source for the material you are looking for.

Given you are not averse to GURPS, get a copy of GT:Ground Forces. It has a discussion building an army, with the modifiers for TL. The build your own army rules may give an idea of the miliary strenght of each world.

GT:Far Trader gives an idea of the economic strengths of each world, which the GT:Ground Forces takes into account of.

The TNE: World Tamers Handbook contains an economic system for building colonies. You can apply this model (which include number of workers applied to agriculture, heavy industry, light industy, and armed forces).

T4's Pocket Empires may be the model you are looking for, as it show how to build and maintain small empires.

You may also want to look at "Field of War: Book of Blook". This is for D20, but is is a refernece for building and maintining a small empire. (In a fantasy setting, but the rules apply).

If you want an analysis of starship combat capability, look in the JTAS article archive for the TCS conversion to GURPS, where the combat cabilities of the GURPS starship designs are reduced to just a few numbers for easier combat.

The problem is there are more factors involved than you want to take a look at. In addition to Population and Tech Level, TCS includes Government type (how much can the government squeze from the people to pay for a "war"). Other sources add more variables. Starport is an indicator of how much a world cares about other worlds for example. The harshness of the world is another, where an inhospitable world will have fewer resources available for waging war.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by tjoneslo:
I'm not sure there is one source for the material you are looking for.

I figure that, at the very least, the two big pieces I am looking for are completely independent. But, yes, I do understand that.

I also understand that I may not actually get a full answer because there isn't one.

Given you are not averse to GURPS, get a copy of GT:Ground Forces. ...

T4's Pocket Empires may be the model you are looking for, as it show how to build and maintain small empires.

I would really like to get Pocket Empires, but I have never seen a copy for sale. Even at some ridiculously inflated price. (No, I will not pay a big price for it. I am just surprised that I have never seen a copy for sale. Probably just bad timing.)

I have several of the GT books, including Far Trader. I will probably have to get Ground Forces at some point.

The problem is there are more factors involved than you want to take a look at. In addition to Population and Tech Level, TCS includes Government type (how much can the government squeze from the people to pay for a "war"). Other sources add more variables. Starport is an indicator of how much a world cares about other worlds for example. The harshness of the world is another, where an inhospitable world will have fewer resources available for waging war.

I was just looking at Pop and TL because I figured they will have the biggest impact, and because I wanted to keep things simple.

The other reason I ignore the other factors is because in an interstellar polity, those factors are significantly muted. A worlds government is fairly irrelevant, as the polity is imposing the tax. The starport is a big deal, but only as regards the presence of shipyards. Likewise, the resources don't necessarily matter, as the polity can arrange to have things moved around as necessary.

So, yes, they do have an influence, I thought, with the above in mind, that it is not unreasonable to ignore them for simplicity.

Thanks for the input.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by thrash:
It really depends on what correlation between TL and GDP you want in your TU, since you don't like the canonical one. I take it you don't want to just take the table from GT: Far Trader and convert to TTL's, interpolating where necessary?

I guess I could interpolate. I didn't want to just apply the GT:FT rules directly onto TTLs as that would give very different results. However, if I do interpolate, it could give me workable answers.

(Of course I don't agree with the TTL <-> GTL translations, but I can just ignore that for now.)

I know that someone put together a table of correlations of fleets by TL for High Guard, based on TCS results, which is just what you're asking.

Unfortunately, I've been looking for that message on the web without success for several weeks now. I'll post it here if I can turn it up.

Yes! That's just what I need! Please post the reference if you do find it.

I think I saw Mr. Whipsnade mention that chart before. Maybe he has it ...

Again, thanks for the input and URLs.

 

[jappel]

Daryen,

I wound up with an extra copy of Pocket Empires due to poor Ebay-fu. PM me if you're interested.

John

 

[daryen]

Thank you, Chris, for the chart. I think that is exactly what I need.

John, message has been sent!