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Need UWP excuses

Morte

SOC-14 1K
What do you do when you've got a pocket empire like this:

- There are 18 worlds and 121.17 billion people.
- 120 billion of them live on 3 Hi-pop worlds with unbreathable atmospheres.
- The five largest worlds are illegal in T20 (-2 to size if atmosphere not 5/6/8). {edit: This turned out to be a mistake, I missed the errata for the T20 THB which says that rule ignores mainworlds in a system. They would be illegal in many rules, but not in T20.}
- There are 3 inviting worlds with water and breathable air. They're home to 0.06% of the total population.
- It was settled while Terrans were conquering the First Imperium, survived the long night, and has better wealth and technology than 3I.

Any general strategies?
 
Morte asked:

"What do you do when you've got a pocket empire like this: [snip of some real dogs]"

"Any general strategies?"


Mr. Morte,

Drop back and punt?

Seriously, how wedded are you to those UWPs? You mention three of them are illegal. Can you prune them a bit?

The 'shirtsleeve' worlds may not be as nice as they seem. Perhaps their biopsheres are too close to the Terran norm for easy colonization; ie they 'fight' back?

I'd re-roll the lot or put in the numbers I want. Make the system work for you.


Sincerely,
Larsen
 
I agree that the nice UWPs can have biological nasties that prohibit colonization.

One seriously broken world is enough. Leave one of the nasty planets at the huge population, and find a good economic reason for it. Maybe it is a minerological trove and they've developed industries to exploit it all and be comfy in their domes/tunnels. The others need to be tainted or fully breatheable to explain the high pop. LBB ignores temperature, but they could be cold/hot.
 
Originally posted by Morte:
What do you do when you've got a pocket empire like this:

- There are 18 worlds and 121.17 billion people.
- 120 billion of them live on 3 Hi-pop worlds with unbreathable atmospheres.
Did they start off as unbreathable when the planets were first colonised?
Perhaps the industries, power production and general ecological damage of all those people on those three world have resulted in the now unbreathable atmospheres.

- The five largest worlds are illegal in T20 (-2 to size if atmosphere not 5/6/8).
Which system was used to generate them then? ;)
If you're happy with the setup then don't worry about the fudge factors, there have been plenty of those used in the past for OTU worlds (DGP added +1 to the TL of core worlds and the like in the 3rd Imperium IIRK).

- There are 3 inviting worlds with water and breathable air. They're home to 0.06% of the total population.
Perhaps the vast majority of the population are very happy in their automated, luxurious, climate controlled, high tech cities on the three main worlds.
The low population on the "garden worlds" could be tour guides and the like, researchers and colonists, exiles, prisoners, etc.

- It was settled after the long night, and has better wealth and technology than 3I.
Good reason for players to visit then ;)


Any general strategies?
As I said earlier, if you're happy with it then flesh out the details and go with it.
 
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Seriously, how wedded are you to those UWPs? You mention three of them are illegal. Can you prune them a bit?
I was looking at pitching a TA on this to MJD. In every respect but UWPs, it's the "perfect pocket empire".

I'd re-roll the lot or put in the numbers I want. Make the system work for you.
Oh, if I just swap the atmosphere digits for the three hi-pops with the three inviting worlds the UWPs all snap into focus. That's what I'll do if this remains an IMTU exercise.

[I'm quite happy to swap planets on the map IMTU but a few people have encouraged me to try for publication with this.]
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Did they start off as unbreathable when the planets were first colonised?
Two are code 2 (very thin, tainted) and the other is an A (exotic).

Which system was used to generate them then? ;)
T20, supposedly. It's the Old Worlds (second biggest power in Gateway 993).

Perhaps the vast majority of the population are very happy in their automated, luxurious, climate controlled, high tech cities on the three main worlds.
I had one in mind for a holiday planet. The UWP ignores transients. Whaddya expect when it's set by impie scouts from more than a sector away?

For all three it's, well, a bit thin. I would like to produce a coherent setting, here. This isn't 3I, where the worlds make no sense as a group but since 95% of worlds are undefined we just assume they're the odd ones. I'd like to do all 18 worlds.
 
or them workers (a rather ungrateful lot ) breed too much. And the boss are not giving up their summer cabins?
 
How about the hi-pop worlds have atmospheres that are hostile to normal O2 breathing lifeforms, but is just fine (or borderline fine) for the locals (evolution look a strange sideroad). For the "nice" worlds around them, the locals might actually consider them environmentally hostile.

Just a thought.
 
Have you thought about explaining why such a "small" Pocket Empire would have so many different types of world government?
I notice several are Charismatic Dictatorships(4), and a couple of Charismatic Oligarchies(2). Any link between them I wonder?
 
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Have you thought about explaining why such a "small" Pocket Empire would have so many different types of world government?
I notice several are Charismatic Dictatorships(4), and a couple of Charismatic Oligarchies(2). Any link between them I wonder?
Yes. Yes-a-rooney. Boy, do I have an answer for that. That's one of the reasons I like the place.
 
Hmm, I don't suppose an explanation of "the garden worlds are reserved for the society's elite, while the poor huddled masses swelter in the Calcutta-like hell-holes" works for you?

In other words, the dictators and oligarchs and others at the top of the power pyramid are those 0.06%.

Or, perhaps one or more of these worlds is home to an alien race (or a colony)? This might work best for the exotic atmosphere.

John
 
I take it that Rawa Maz, Quargla, and Ramsele are the garden worlds. I also notice that Sba is well on the way to being the next High Pop Ind world.

Yep, you're right to pick this Pocket Empire as a development opportunity. There's plenty going on and lots of places to explore, not to mention border conflicts and trade missions to other states.
 
Originally posted by jappel:
Hmm, I don't suppose an explanation of "the garden worlds are reserved for the society's elite, while the poor huddled masses swelter in the Calcutta-like hell-holes" works for you?
Alas, not really -- it doesn't exactly square with this PE being widely seen as good guys and altruistic regional policemen. Also I figure the "charismatic" types running the hi-pops would just grab the breathables for their peeps, or they wouldn't stay "charismatic".

Or, perhaps one or more of these worlds is home to an alien race (or a colony)? This might work best for the exotic atmosphere.
There'd really have to be an entry for them in the "minor races of Gateway Domain" part of the book. I probably can't invent a minor race, especially when there are 40 billion of them at TL 12. They'd outweigh several subsectors.

I do have some Droyne, elsewhere, covering a few political and astrographic loose ends.
 
Understandable constraints for keeping with the OTU. How about taking the biological avenue a little further for one of the worlds: ever read Niven-Pournelle-Barne's "Legacy of Heorot" and "Children of Beowulf"? These novels deal with human settlers on a basically terrestrial world who have to deal with some amazingly deadly indigenous creatures. Their initial efforts to deal with the threat result in dire unforseen consequences from the native ecology (picture killing off the top layer of predators, only to discover that they were all that kept the swarm of next-level predators in check...) It also appears that these creatures are pre-sentient, with at least some degree of self-awareness.

Of course, the humans could always take the K'Kree solution (wipe out the nasties, who cares about the ecology) - but if the Old Worlds are basically "nice guys", then perhaps sufficient support exists for the world to be kept in preserve status, with the listed population a scientific mission studying the "minor-race-to-be".

John
 
Those Very Thin worlds...

settled during the long night...

Hmmm.... say the world IS a garden for the LOCALS... (They'd adapted to a thin Atmosphere, and were the mountain peoples..., and then during colonization adapted just a hair further.) And put them close to the border with Thin (remember, also, that each code is a RANGE).

Yes, the air there is much higher in O2 percentage... not a problemm if the PPO2 is kept in the human breathable range... of about 0.1 to 0.25 atm PPO2... which puts the total atmosphereic pressure nearly all CO2 and O2... and some filler nitrogen in simmilar PPN2.

As for the exotic...perhaps all it nees is an artificial gill....

Lets say the atmosphere is something ike a natural "Deep Diving Breathable Fluid"... you CAN breathe it, but not and be able to talk, and it carries an O2/CO2 ballance similar to air in PPO2 and PPCO2...

Now, those nice "T-Prime"/"Garden Worlds"... one has a NASTY local microbe... relatively harmless do most local critters, but the needed enzyme to fight it is a double gene recessive... so infant mortality is rapaciously high. If you got the right enzyme, it's protien sheath disolves readily...

One has the entire wrong protien and amino acid set (nothing local is edible to normal humans, but the overall ecosystem is very similar...)
 
Slink182: human evolution is a lot slower than that.

Jappel: yes, I've read Legacy of Heorot and I like your idea.

Aramis: Oops, mistake in my first post. They were settled at the end of the ramshackle empire, not the long night, and they remained functional through it. But they're "very thin, tainted" not "thin", so the mountain thing's no good.

I suppose that opens avenues. "During the long night, their life support and construction tech were excellent but they just couldn't get jump drive construction to do more than limp along. So the inhospitable but resource-laden worlds the early settlers chose eventually grew to hi-pop status. Once travel opened up they stayed hi-pop, because lots of people wanted or needed to live where there were lots of other people. Like city dwellers, but on a bigger scale."

OK, that'll do.

*crunches numbers and angles on Old Worlds vs Kafoe, howls in despair*
 
Originally posted by Morte:
Slink182: human evolution is a lot slower than that.

Jappel: yes, I've read Legacy of Heorot and I like your idea.

Aramis: Oops, mistake in my first post. They were settled at the end of the ramshackle empire, not the long night, and they remained functional through it. But they're "very thin, tainted" not "thin", so the mountain thing's no good.

1) Evolution appears to be punctuated equilibria... the chnges in many species appear to be minimal for thousands of years, a sudden environment change occurs, and a throusand years later, speciation has occurred.


2) that taint might be something that they have adapted to, as well. Like NO2 being higher percentage than normal, or something that shortens life, and is medically toxic, but that you can prevent with a filter... like major surface deposits of asbestos... won't kill ya, at lest not before you can breath, but can make middle age short and ugly.
 
1) Punk eek without a long prior period of neutral mutations and a catalytic die-back? I don't believe a word of it.

2) Very thin, tainted.
 
Mr. Morte,

With the UWPs generated by T20, my first idea is rendered moot; ignore the UWPs as broken.

Aside from the Marches and Rim, most of the 3I UWPs available have their roots in the wretchedly corrupt Genie files. The method by which the Genie data was generated didn't take into account CT's own sysgen, LBB:6 Scouts. (Mr. Thrash can explain this bit far better than I.)

I'd assume that the T20 publishers; knowing the broken nature of the Genie files, fixed those UWPs prior to publication.

Back to the problem at hand. Very interesting suggestions by everyone so far and any of them would make for an excellent explanation to you problem.

I'll leave aside the biological reasons; as good as they are, and suggest something different(1) -a sociological and historical reason.

T20 is set in M:1000. The 1st Survey was completed in 420 and the 2nd Survey isn't due for completion until 1065. IMHO and IMTU, the Imperium surveys constantly and the capital S surveys are simply baselines. Most, if not all, worlds have been surveyed at least cursorily since the 1st and 2nd Surveys.

The hi-pop 'hellhole' worlds of the pocket empire were founded about the same time the Sylean Federation morphed into the Third Imperium. The founding of the Imperium may or may not have been one of the reasons for that. Originally, the hellhole worlds were not hellhole worlds - or at least not as hellish as they seem today (1000). Their poor UWPs are the result of the hand of man.

The pocket empire is relatively new, founded in the last 200 years or so. Beforehand, the three hi-pop soon-to-be hellholes warred incessently with each other in a bewildering flurry of alliances, backstabs, and free-for-alls. Each of the worlds was damaged in these wars, either by enemy actions or the resource extraction and manufacturing efforts the wars demanded. The hi-pop worlds fought for centuries. Further colonization of the region was halted because colonies could not be adequately defended against the enemy(ies).

Then, Something Happened(tm). A new religion or an old one, a cultural shift, a shock from outside (my favorite), something, anything, happened and the wars between the hellhole worlds slowly sputtered to a halt. Perhaps the appearence of the 3I to spinward in the sector made the worlds take pause. Perhaps the appearence of the K'Kree to trailing did it. Perhaps it was both or a mixture of both with other events. Whatever it was, the hi-pop worlds decided to that it would be better to hang together than hang separately. They had far more in common than they did with anyone else.

This new 'pocket empire' was slow to take shape, the members had been enemies for centuries after all. A nice, long term project would help the empire grow together. Enter those three 'edens'.

Those nice worlds weren't so nice when the pocket empire formed or when the hellhole worlds were settled. They're nice now because of a two century terraforming effort by the pocket empire and they're still not really ready for large scale settlement. Of course, whether the empire can coax settlers from the 'hell' they know to the 'eden' they don't remains to be seen!

Summing it up; the pocket empire's M:1000 UWPs are not 'natural'. The hellholes are partially man-made as are the edens. The reason your pocket empire doesn't rule the region despite its large popualtion is twofold. First, the empire spends most of its funds on terraforming; terraforming those three worlds into edens and continually terraforming the man-made hellholes so that they don't get any worse.

Second, the empire's populace is decidely isolationist and pacifistic on the interstellar scale. They'll defend their own, they just don't want to be bothered with much else. Their own history, the very landscape of their homeworlds teaches them daily about the horrors of war.

Hope this blather helps.


Sincerely,
Larsen

1 - Why? Because someone proposed a biological answer before I could! Wahhhh!
 
Missah Whipsnade, I fear your idea cannot be applied as written. The Old Worlds history since their founding in -2210 is covered in some depth in the Gateway book (it's really good about history, unlike UWPs). Most of their fighting in the last millenium has been with the Katowice Conquest next door, who split off in 250.

Whilst I could believe them aquiring a "sudden" taint during that period, I have the feeling they wouldn't have been very Hi-Pop afterwards. I think the taint has to be fairly long term since anything that suddenly changes 3 atmosphere codes would have featured the history.

Accumulated pollution is certainly a credible reason for the taint, but it leaves the "very thin" and the "exotic" to cope with.

But I do like the terraforming. A lot -- it fits very nicely into the "states that are 3000 years old can try some bold long term plans" theme I happen to be working on.

You look much better in this thread than you do on TV, by the way.
 
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