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Naval Terminology

Murph

SOC-14 1K
IMTU the following are class sizes for warships:

Sloop(HE)100-400 tons
Corvette (LF) 400-1,200 tons
Frigate(FF) 1,200-3,000 tons
Destroyer(DD)3,000-10,000 tons
Light Cruiser(CL)10,000-30,000 tons
Heavy Cruiser(CA)30,000-80,000 tons
Battle Cruiser(CB)80,000-250,000 tons
Dreadnaught(DN)250,000-500,000 tons
Battleship(BB)500,000-2,000,000 tons

Ships can be further identified as "missile" or "gunned" depending on the primary armament.

HE= Sloop, Escort
LF= Corvette, Fast (almost all have m6, and J4 drives)

Assault Carriers (Troop Transports:
Corvette Transport (LT)3,000 tons carries a 50 man platoon of Marines
Battalion Transport (IT) 25,000 tons carries a 1,200 man Marine Battalion
Assault Carrier (CT) 80,000 tons carries a full Marine Regiment plus stores
Division Transport (RT) 800,000 tons carries a full division of troops (25,000) plus stores. Not very common

Division2-4 ships
Squadron 8-12 ships of the same type
Task Group A mixture of ships generally of all types 4-20 ships
Task Force Several task groups or squadrons mixed 8-60 ships
Fleet Command organization controlling several squadrons (2-20) plus supporting squadrons and Marine Regiments.



[This message has been edited by Murph (edited 28 April 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Murph:
IMTU the following are class sizes for warships:

Dreadnaught(DN)250,000-500,000 tons
Battleship(BB)500,000-2,000,000 tons

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suggest that these two categories ought to be switched. The term Dreadnaught definitely suggests a larger than usual battleship.

Also there isn't usually any reason for a ship larger than 1,000,000 tons. A warship only really needs to be big enough to mount a spine gun and maximum armor/drives. Anything beyond that is a waste of resources.
 
Actually the dreadnaught class came first, then techically larger warships should be called Super dreadnaughts.

After all the HMS Dreadnaught when it was launched made obsolete every other capital ship in the world in one fell swoop. Those ships were called "PRE-dreadnaughts".

FOr good reading on this check out Massey's DREADNOUGHT. Superb book. ALso good background on a campaign where a war is about to begin.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Murph:
Actually the dreadnaught class came first, then techically larger warships should be called Super dreadnaughts.

After all the HMS Dreadnaught when it was launched made obsolete every other capital ship in the world in one fell swoop. Those ships were called "PRE-dreadnaughts".

FOr good reading on this check out Massey's DREADNOUGHT. Superb book. ALso good background on a campaign where a war is about to begin.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well yes but the connotation of Dreadnought is a ship larger than the average battleship. This is what I was refering to not the specific 20th century situation that led to the usage in the first place.

And it's just a suggestion. If the citizens of YTU have a different understanding of the term than me who am I to pick nits?

David Shayne
 
We have a difference of perceptions here, that comes from different decades of the 20th century.

Historically, the Dreadnaught was the lead ship of the steam-turbine "all big gun" battleships that revolutionized warship design just before WWI. "Dreadnaught" became the slang term for the biggest and best battlships.

SF writers of the 30s were still impressed, and used the term to describe the most impressive class of warship. Similarly, I keep trying to use "boomer," after the slang for a ballistic missile sub.

The new generation of battleships built before and during WWII were much bigger, faster, and better armed than the WWI ships. As a result the term "dreadnaught" then suggested an archaic design of second rate battleship.

DaveShayne uses the term as it was used in the 1930s (suggesting an early aquaintance with "Doc" Smith), Murph uses as in the 1940s (suggesting he read Sink the Bismark first.)

IIRC, our Trillion Credit Squadron games suggested that the bigest TL15 warships should stay under 70,000 tons, but TL 12-13 main force ships "optimized" about 200,000. I tend to use "Dreadnaught" for the older, larger warships.

[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 05 May 2001).]
 
Naval terminology for vessel types was based on function, not size, and the size could vary widely depending on technology. At that, the function often changed over time. Sometimes the name of an obsolete function was borrowed to describe a new function. The following is a short history, based mostly on English/American practice. In other languages different names with different shades of meaning occur, and fashions change (like replacing the Dutch sloop with the French corvette. some navies use numerical catagories like the 6 English "rates" or the French 1st, 2nd, and 3rd class cruisers. And this is not even taking into account Vilani Naval traditions.

And there are new names. From submarines we get "hunter-killers and "boomers." "Arsenal ships" and "Sea Control Ships" are proposed new classes of ship. There is a whole range of Air Force adjectives like "attack," "strike," "stategic," "air superiority," "air domination" (that's new, for the F22) or even the old "pursuit."

Also, the use of certain names in media tend to become mainstream. For example, the F16 was known to its pilots as the "Viper" from Battlestar Galactica. Star Wars call their capital ships "destroyers," and five hundred years from now that is more likely to be remembered than the Fletcher class tin can. Deathstar might even be the new word for "dreadnaught." All in all, I think you can justify just about any name class you want.

Now, the boring history lesson.

Sloops, Corvettes, and Destroyer Escorts
A Sloop is a fast sail boat with one mast and triangular sails, but in Naval usage it refers to a small ship (400-1000 tons), usually square rigged. It was usually to small for a Captain and only had a Commander in charge. Corvette was the French word for the same ship. In the middle of the 19th century steam replaced sail, and the larger sloops (1000-2000 tons) became "Corvettes" or even "Armored Corvettes" in most Navies. Around WWI small ships were commissioned to escort merchant ships. These were called "escorts" "sloop escorts" or "corvette escorts." The US Navy eventually settled on "destroyer escort" (although they kinda tend to "Frigate") while the rest of the world uses "corvette."
So this class of ship went from being an 400 ton independent patrol ship to a 4000 ton herder of merchantmen.

Frigates
At the end of the age of sail Frigates were three-masted, square rigged, 1000-2000 ton warships with one gun deck. This made them faster and more maneuverable than the ships-of-the-line, which had two or three gun decks. In fact some of the biggest Frigates were "razzees" made by cutting off the upper decks from a ship-of-the line. The American Constitution class were just as big, better armed, and set the standard for the next fifty years. When steam power came in Frigates first had paddle wheels, then screws, and they grew to 3500 tons. The term fell out of use for a long time, replaced by Cruisers, but in the 1960s a class of big guided-missile destroyers were briefly called "Frigates" before being reclassified as "Cruisers." Since WWII "Frigate" has been used by most Navies to describe a Destroyer-class vessel with a dedicated ASW mission.
So Frigates went from being the 1000 ton far-ranging eyes and ears of the fleet and commerce raiders, the ideal berth for a man of ambition, to part of the main battle fleet and held tight to screen a particular threat.

Destroyer
The wonder-weapon of the late 19th century was the Whitehead self-propelled torpedo. High speed boats could dash in on battleships to fast for the main battery to target them and release the torpedo before the rapid fire guns could engage them. To prevent these attacks a class of small (600-1000 ton) fast ships armed with rapid fire guns were built: the Torpedo Boat Destroyers. Ironically, these ships proved to be better at making torpedo attacks than torpedo boats, so the boats were retired and every fleet bought Destroyers. Destroyers gradually absorbed anti submarine and anti-aircraft missions and grew to 2000 tons in WWII and today are 9000 tons multi-mission ships. In the US Navy today, the difference between a cruiser and a detroyer is barely a hairbreadth.
Well, Destroyers started out as 600 ton ships screening the battlefleet from a very specific threat, and they are now much 9000 ton ships shielding the fleet from all threats.

Cruiser
In the early steam era sloops, corvettes, and frigates were considered "cruising ships" because they were intended to cruise around patrol areas. By the late 19th century, these classes were generally replaced by different types of "cruiser." The Scout Cruiser was a fast, lightly armed and unarmored vessel of about 1700 tons., the Protected Cruiser was about 3500 tons and the Armored cruiser nearly a battleship at 7000 tons.
During WWI cruisers were divided into heavy cruisers (14000 T) and light cruisers (7000 T). By WWII heavy cruisers were17000 tons (with 200 mm guns) and light cruisers 12000 tons (with 120-150 mm guns). By late in the war, American cruisers were primarily anti-aircraft platforms and eventually became missile platforms with advanced radar used to escort carrier battle groups. By contrast, post-WWII Soviet Cruisers became their primary ship-to-ship platform, using cruise missiles.
So cruisers started as 1500 ton "lone wolfs" patrolling the seas and protecting shipping. They have ended up as 15000 ton parts of the main battlefleet under the watchful eye of an Admiral.

Battleships, Dreadnaughts and Battle Cruisers
The Ship-of-the line was a sailing vessel of about 2500-3500 tons, with multiple gun decks. In the middle of the 19th century large ships were given steam power, and armor, and these "armored ships" got up to 6000 tons. Eventually, they grew to over 10,000 tons with mixed batteries (say 150mm, 230mm, and 300mm) of high explosive shells guns, the first "battleships." In the early 20th century a new generation of large (20-30,000 ton), fast, battleships with a main battery of all big (300mm+) guns that simplified fire control. These "Dreadnaughts" obsoleted all other battleships. By WWII battleship had grown to 40-60,000 tons with a main battery of 400mm or more but it was used to screen carrier groups or to support amphibious attacks. Since WWII, only the United States has had battleships in commission.
The in the Dreadnaught era, the British designed (and lots of people emulated) Battlecruisers that were as big as or bigger than battleships and as well armed as battleships but with light armor and high speed. They were supposed to blind an enemy fleet by destroying the enemy's cruiser screen, but they were easily destroyed when they tried to fight real battleships. The Hood is famous, but the same thing happened over and over at Jutland.
These started as 3000 ton main-force ships, defining a nations fleet. They gradually got more and more powerful (up to 60,000 tons), but eventually were superceded by aircraft carriers and vanished from economic pressure.


[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 09 May 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
DaveShayne uses the term as it was used in the 1930s (suggesting an early aquaintance with "Doc" Smith), Murph uses as in the 1940s (suggesting he read Sink the Bismark first.)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Imperium board game has Dreadnaughts that are more capable than Battleships. I think. I lost my copy of the game several years ago. :-(

Star Fleet Battles has Dreadnaughts that are bigger and stronger than any other ships.
(the boxed edition from way back without all of the expansions. No doubt they have added supper duper magnarific super dreadnaughts to the counter mix by now.)

I have a bizarre wargame for the SNES called PTO II that refers to the Japanese battleships Yamato and Musashi as Dreadnaughts.

This is the namespace that I'm in.

David Shayne
 
Dreadnought was the name of the all big gun battle ship built by the British in 1906. The name came from admiral Fisher , (then First Sea Lord of the navy), his personal motto was; " Fear God and Dread Nought ". HMS Dreadnought was an interm design , dropping the useless secondary guns in favor of more speed and armour. The USS Michigan built in 1910 was a more like the modern battleship. It was built with only four turrets but all on the centreline, thus all guns could fire to either broadside. But the name Dreadnought stuck, it was used to describe the new battleships of the era.


[This message has been edited by Darium (edited 09 May 2001).]
 
I can think of another example of ship types being named for their function rather than size; the Starship Tactical Combat Simulator (or tac sim to fans) by FASA. In order of size from largest to smallest; Battleship, Cruiser, Frigate, Destroyer, Escort. As you can see the frigate and destroyer seem to be reversed.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darium:
I can think of another example of ship types being named for their function rather than size; the Starship Tactical Combat Simulator (or tac sim to fans) by FASA. In order of size from largest to smallest; Battleship, Cruiser, Frigate, Destroyer, Escort. As you can see the frigate and destroyer seem to be reversed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the 1960s-70s the US Navy had classes of "frigates" (Truxton and Bainbridge) that were bigger than destroyers. In the mid 70s the were re-classified as cruisers.
 
Exactly. I use Battleship in the view of the Iowa class vs HMS Dreadnaught. That is in the later 1940's(+) view of that type of ship.
 
For Anti-piracy work, I see the subsector level fleets being tasked with this and having a predominance of light craft such as sloops, corvettes, destroyer escorts, Patrol ships, frigates and destroyers. I see Subsector Fleets having relatively fewer cruiser/capital ships since IMHO the mission would be different than say that of the assigned Imperial fleet units.
 
Not mentioning specific characteristics, like size, becasuse that changes with TL.

I give the Imperial Navy Battle Fleets and Frontier Fleets.

Battle Fleets are the biggest and meanest fleets you can make (Trillion Credit Squadron stuff). Usually they are based in sectors inside the Imperium, near the shipyards.
Battleships are the main force ships in these fleets, with the biggest and nastiest weapons you can get, and as much armor and speed as you can afford. If you see one, it is "showing the flag." If you see a squadron, they're serious and there are lots more near by.
Destroyers are smaller ships in the battlefleet, but still very large. They serve as scouts and pickets, and destroy the other side's scouts and fighters. They need to run away from a battleship.

Frontier Fleets are intended to patrol the Frontier. They are basically a reconnaisance and tripwire force, usually scattered over a large district.
Frontier Cruisers are the backbone of Frontier fleets. They have the fire power of a destroyer, but are larger to carry more boats, a scientific detatchment and a re-inforced Marine company (including a Commando Platoon.) They also have powerful jump drives and can use unrefined fuel. They are usually independent commands, and often have a working relationship with the Scout Service in their area. This comes closest, in principle, to the USS Enterprise.
Patrol Cruisers (could be called a Frigate) help to fill in the gaps. They are more than a match for pirates and most mercenaries, but a Destroyer can usually take them. They also have fuel refining, a short company of Marines and landing boats. They can escort convoys, support Naval Intelligence or act as commerce raiders in time of war.
Corvettes These are smaller ships. They are a match for most pirates and some mercenaries. They have fuel refining, and a platoon of Marines on board for boarding actions. They can escort convoys, support Naval Intelligence or act as commerce raiders in time of war.

Imperial fleets also have one or more Assault Groups attached. Each group has two or more Assault Ships, a reinforced Marine battalion, gunboats and landing boats, and several supporting Destroyers.

Sector Navies mostly have Patrol Fleets.
Battle Cruisers (or Heavy Cruiser or Armored Cruiser) are very big ships, easily able to take out destroyers or a lower-TL battleship (in fact, at TL13-14 these are often retired Imperial Battleships). They also have a Marine Company on board. A Sector may have a squadron or two, mostly to support the Imperial Battle Fleet if called upon.
Patrol Cruisers and Corvettes are frequently found, again, often obsolescent Imperial designs.
Escorts Are small, inexpensive, vessels. They are intended to accompany merchant ships, and so usually have just jump 2. These are often operated by Planetary Navies to protect subsidized shipping.
 
The basic problem is that different classifications of ships reflect the state of tactical thought at the time of their constructions. The US Navy is a perfect example of this. In the last century it evolved though several different systems. At the start there was the battleship(pre-dreadnoughts),armored cruisers, scout cruisers, tordedo boat destroyers, and torpedo boats themselves. After the launch of HMS Dreadnought and the USS Michigan(actually designed and keel laid first) everything changed. True the new dreadnought battleship seemed to rule the waves, but was so expensive that they infact were rarely used. Instead the faster cruisers that had been built as support carried most of the weight of the war efforts- in both World wars I might add, and while this was going on the torpedo boat proved to be next to worthless while the destorer not only kept its escort duties but aborbed the torpedo attack role also. If you want to get into the real mess then you can get into the topic of battlecruisers. Who's modle do you follow? The British who'd passion for speed and good looks gave them a class of vessel that could not stand up to anything close to its own firepower, or the German pattern that were more like scaled down battleships with all the armor but less firepower.
Then you have the mess that the Washington Naval Treaty left the cruiser classification in. Because of the tonnage limits of the treaty the differences between Heavy (8" guns) vs Light(6"guns) became academic because almost everyone started building nearly the same size hulls, filled up the ones allowed by treaty with 8" and used 6" for the rest- the Japanese infact converted several "light" cruisers to heavies just by swapping out the turret mounts ( the ols 6" mounts ended up as secondary mounts on the Yamato's in case you were wandering).
Jump forward to today and you see that modt of the old classifications are gone. Of course you have the carrier, but the real canges have come in the escort ships. Cruisers and destroyers have just about evolved into the same ship with the primary role of leading the defence of the carrier. The frigate has for the most part been relegated to anti-sub work and merchant escorts because most are nor fast enough to keep up with a modern task-force that will average over 30 knots at any given moment.
So what I'm really getting at is the you should use what ever kind of classification for your ships that fits your concept ot the tactics your Fleet will use. Always remember that a weapon is just an expresion of a tactical concept, and if the concept is right so usually is the weapon. But if the concept is wacky- well I would suggest reading up on Sir John Fisher. First he gave us HMS Dreadnought, but let us not forget he also stuck the Royal Navy with the Courageous,Glourious, and the wonderfully outragiuos Furious.
But most of all, remember that its all just a game and just have fun with it.
 
Most of my campaigns use the Destroyers in their traditional role as escorts for main fleet elements. Destroyer Escorts or Corvettes used for comerce protection, either anti-piracy patrols or convoy escorts, depending on the threat level. The Frigate goes back to it's roots as a long ranging highly survivable multipurpose vessel. Frigates serve as Flagships for Destroyer Flotillas (2-3 Destroyer Squadrons), Commerce raiders, Deep penetration raiding, Scouting for the fleet. Frigates run from 1500 - 5000 tons; Jump 3-4, Manuver 4+ Mixed armament Missles , lasers, Energy weapons, Small Bay weapons at higher tech levels. Also a permantly assigned Marine detachment, never less than a Squad (11 Men,with or without a vehicle). A good example at the low tonnage end is the Kinnur class vessel.
 
And an excellent way to do it. Although I always felt the Kinunir was a but underarmed for a ship its size.

I think we ended up (after Trillion Credit Squadron) with J4 and M6 drives being the best compromise in warships.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gyro Ginot:
Most of my campaigns use the Destroyers in their traditional role as escorts for main fleet elements. Destroyer Escorts or Corvettes used for comerce protection, either anti-piracy patrols or convoy escorts, depending on the threat level. The Frigate goes back to it's roots as a long ranging highly survivable multipurpose vessel. Frigates serve as Flagships for Destroyer Flotillas (2-3 Destroyer Squadrons), Commerce raiders, Deep penetration raiding, Scouting for the fleet. Frigates run from 1500 - 5000 tons; Jump 3-4, Manuver 4+ Mixed armament Missles , lasers, Energy weapons, Small Bay weapons at higher tech levels. Also a permantly assigned Marine detachment, never less than a Squad (11 Men,with or without a vehicle). A good example at the low tonnage end is the Kinnur class vessel. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaveShayne:
The Imperium board game has Dreadnaughts that are more capable than Battleships. I think. I lost my copy of the game several years ago. :-(

Star Fleet Battles has Dreadnaughts that are bigger and stronger than any other ships.
(the boxed edition from way back without all of the expansions. No doubt they have added supper duper magnarific super dreadnaughts to the counter mix by now.)

David Shayne
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SFB BB's are larger than Dreadnoughts. See also B10 vs C9.
Starfire also uses BB then Superdreadnought then Monitor.

Traveller seems to have used the term for 250KTd -500KTd ships, and Battleships (BB) for the same range.

------------------
-aramis
========================================
Smith & Wesson:
The Original Point and Click interface!

[note correction re starfire]

[This message has been edited by aramis (edited 15 May 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
SFB BB's are larger than Dreadnoughts. See also B10 vs C9.
Starfire also uses the same pattern.

Traveller seems to have used the term for 250KTd -500KTd ships, and Battleships (BB) for the same range.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My copy of SFB again from a long time ago, Doesn't actually have BB's so I guess they added that on in later expansions. Still doesn't change the fact that if you say dreadnought to me I'm thinking of a top of the line bigger than anything else type ship.

YMMV

David Shayne
 
Watch out using anything fron SFB. Keep in mind that the game tried to cover over a century of warship developement, not to mention the modifications to designs and tactical thought caused by the General War.
There is no right or wrong in this issue, it what-ever you are most comfortable with.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Christopher Jennings:
There is no right or wrong in this issue, it what-ever you are most comfortable with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Remember the French didn't even use "heavy" or "light" cruisers." They had 1st class, 2nd class and 3rd class cruisers.

The Royal Navy of the Napoleonic wars were not officially Ships, Frigates, sloops, or anything else. They were divided into 6 Rates, I.e, it wasn't a small Frigate, it was (officially at least) a "5th Rate Ship."

Has anyone got a system that doesn't depend on wet Navy terms?
 
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