Naval Ranks

[Ben W Bell]

Okay. More fleet questions.

A Grand Admiral controls the Domain Fleet.
A Sector Admiral controls the Sector named fleet.
Fleet Admirals control the numbered subsector fleets (presumably for both fron line and reserves.)

Now the next rank down is a Commodore according to my naval chain of command for MT. However in naval terms isn't a commodore a senior captain and would be in command of a prestige post like a Dreadnought or Depot.
If that is the case who commands the squadrons? In our world it is usually a rear-admiral or vice-admiral who command such groups but I am unsure as to whether these ranks exist within the Imperial Navy.

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by BenBell:
Okay. More fleet questions.

A Grand Admiral controls the Domain Fleet.
A Sector Admiral controls the Sector named fleet.
Fleet Admirals control the numbered subsector fleets (presumably for both fron line and reserves.)

Now the next rank down is a Commodore according to my naval chain of command for MT. However in naval terms isn't a commodore a senior captain and would be in command of a prestige post like a Dreadnought or Depot.

Commodore is a funny rank. Historically, it could be used in several ways.

The senior-most ship commander in a squadron could be referred to as Commodore, as a courtesy rank giving him authority over the other COs. This could be extended even to commanding officers lower than Caption (the senior captain in a US destroyer squadron could be a Commander, but referred to as Commodore.)

Alternatively, Commodore could be a substantive rank temporarily given to a senior captain promoted to command a squadron without actually commanding one of the ships. This was an artifact of the RN's seniority system, which would not promote a Captain to Admiral until all the Captains ahead of him on the list had either made Admiral themselves, retired, or died.

The US Navy also used Commodore briefly as a one-star flag rank in place of the awkward Rear Admiral, Lower half (For a long time, USN Captains went directly to being two star Rear Admirals, jumping over Army/Marine one-star Brigadier Generals in precedence, which made them very unpopular with the other services.) The USN dropped Commmodore for this pupoe and now uses it only in the sense above. However, the RN recently adopted the rank as a substantive rank for certain jobs (Commodore, Amphibious Warfare, for example).

OK, so that's the history in a (very confusing) nutshell. In Traeller (Book 5, etc), it looks as though Commodore is a permanent substantive rank. I would probbly tend to use these Commodores to command squadrons

Just to confuse things, there are references to Rear Admirals in TNS news bulletins and such like, so it seems the rank does exit in some form, even if it's not on the Book 5 charts.

 

[Simon Jester]

Originally posted by BenBell:
Okay. More fleet questions.

A Grand Admiral controls the Domain Fleet.
A Sector Admiral controls the Sector named fleet.
Fleet Admirals control the numbered subsector fleets (presumably for both fron line and reserves.)

Now the next rank down is a Commodore according to my naval chain of command for MT. However in naval terms isn't a commodore a senior captain and would be in command of a prestige post like a Dreadnought or Depot.
If that is the case who commands the squadrons? In our world it is usually a rear-admiral or vice-admiral who command such groups but I am unsure as to whether these ranks exist within the Imperial Navy.

The way I've always run it in-game is that the title Commodore is used much like a noble's title mainly because there already exists the rank Commander. To avoid confusion, the Navy designates the commanding officer (not necessarily the senior officer) of a specific force (Fleet, Task Force or Task Group, to use modern terminology) as the Commodore of that unit. These groupings must be purposefully created, not just a bunch of ships all travelling the same route, but even so, the person designated Commodore is rarely ranked lower than a full Commander or in charge of less than a task group.

Which brings us to fleet organization, or at least terminology. IMTU, the highest permanently established naval unit is the Fleet, named based on the sector it's assigned to and in which order it was established in that sector (i.e., 5th Corridor Fleet, 2nd Core Fleet, etc.). There are always two Fleets in a Sector, one that is spread across most of the sector dealing with the various small matters that need Navy influence, and a Depot Fleet concentrated in the sector's Depot system (of course) that deals mainly with training, research and development, etc., but that must still remain battle-ready. This fleet is always designated as 6th Fleet, even if there aren't any 2nd thru 5th fleets.

There is a higher level of organization, the Grand Fleet, but these are created on a case-by-case basis for a specific purpose. In MegaTraveller, Lucan's Vengeance Fleet and Dulinor's Coronation Fleet are perfect examples of this. These are always commanded by a Grand Admiral, if not the Emperor himself.

Certain special locations may result in a full Fleet being designated for defense of that location (i.e., the Terra Fleet, the Capital Fleet, the Jewell Fleet, etc.) but these are unusual. All Fleets are made up of Task Forces, designated by triple-digit numbers where the first digit is always that of the higher Fleet (such that TF #106 is the sixth task force of that sector's First Fleet), and these in turn are made up of Task Groups, designated by using the higher Task Force's numerical designation and appending a decimal identifier (i.e., Task Group #106.1). All of these groupings are made up of squadrons of ships, which receive Purpose and numerical designations similar to the task group designator, based on which TG they are assigned to (Attack Squadron 106.1.14, and so on). Each ship within a squadron is designated by an alphabetical designation (Attack Squadron 106.1.14-A, the command ship of this squadron). All of this is for the Imperial Navy only; colonial (planetary) designation practices vary widely based on each planet's traditions, if any.

This ends what is probably far more than you wished to know about the Imperial Navy's fleet formation practices in My Traveller Universe.

Use what you wish,
Simon Jester

 

[RabidVargr]

Currently, (in the US Navy anyways), commodores are commanders of a squadron of ships, or a wolfpack commander if you will. On subs, commanders are the individual co's of the unit, and a captain is the head honcho, for say submarine squadron 1 or whatever. He has the title commodore bestowed upon him as he's in charge of several submarines. Admirals take charge of battlegroups (carrier, CG's, DDG's, a sub or two, a few FFG's) or of large military installations. We've got two here at pearl harbor, one in charge of the sub side, one in charge of surface side. The commodore's report directly to him, and co's to them, etc...

Hope that helps a bit,

RV

 

[Antony]

The real problems with naval ranks, it is not the rank it is the reporter.

Examples from real life, every military jet is a fighter. Every military vehicle is a tank.

In Perth a number of years ago a person stole a M113 Armoured Personnel Carrier, this was reported in the media as someone had stolen a tank.

You could extrapolate that the confusion with the naval ranks was also the result of a reporter getting it wrong or the media misreporting. So rear admiral Gainbridge becomes Vice Admiral Gainbridge in the media. Those who can read the insignia know his correct rank, the general public probably don't care, an admiral is an admiral.

 

[Ben W Bell]

Okay. I'm having a few problems reconciling some of the ranks here. It seems from my research that there is a Grand Admiral that covers a sector, and not a domain as I originally thought.
So the Grand Admiral covers the sector and immediately under him are two Sector Admirals who control the regular and reserve fleets of the sector.
Why? Why have a Grand Admiral who just oversees these two Sector Admirals? Why not have the Grand Admiral be in charge of the Domain Fleets instead. It would make more sense since a great many things are arranged on the Domain level the Archduke would then only have to consult one person on the state of it's navy instead of 4 Grand Admirals if they only covered a sector.

 

[Simon Jester]

Originally posted by BenBell:
Okay. I'm having a few problems reconciling some of the ranks here. It seems from my research that there is a Grand Admiral that covers a sector, and not a domain as I originally thought.
So the Grand Admiral covers the sector and immediately under him are two Sector Admirals who control the regular and reserve fleets of the sector.
Why? Why have a Grand Admiral who just oversees these two Sector Admirals? Why not have the Grand Admiral be in charge of the Domain Fleets instead. It would make more sense since a great many things are arranged on the Domain level the Archduke would then only have to consult one person on the state of it's navy instead of 4 Grand Admirals if they only covered a sector.

You may yet be correct, for in RL in the US Navy we've got Admirals (full admirals, highest current rank) running theaters (Pacific, Atlantic, etc.), holding the higher posts of naval administration (Chief of Naval Operations, Chief of Naval Personnel, etc.) AND holding the position of Navy Chief of Staff on the Joint Chiefs. This latter may well head the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and report directly to the President and the Secretary of Defense.

In the Traveller Universe you could say that Grand Admirals would be in charge of each Sector, and have one of them acting as Domain Grand Admiral, or have someone entirely different hold that post. In similar fashion, these Domain Grand Admirals would report to both the Archduke and to a still higher Grand Admiral who serves much the same function as our Navy Chief of Staff on the Joint Chiefs. The Marines, Army and Scouts would undoubtedly have similar representation, and this Joint Chiefs would report to both the Emperor and to a Ministry of War (or Defense, or Really Determined Passive-Aggressiveness, or whatever it may be).

As for why have a Grand Admiral running herd on two Sector Admirals, that's farly straightforward. Each Sector Admiral would be trying his/her/its hardest to ensure that his/her/its (just "his" from now on) command received the best and fullest measure of any spare ships, equipment, personnel, budget, etc., that was available, certain that this would be best for the welfare of the Imperium (not to mention his own position). The Main Fleet admiral would rationalize this by saying that his fleet is going to be the first to take the brunt of any action, so they've got to be at their best, while the Reserve Fleet admiral will then point out that the Main Fleet is only there to buy time for the Reserve Fleet to be called up, and the more men and materials the reserves have, the better and quicker prepared they'll be to really hammer the enemy. The Grand Admiral is the one responsible for balancing the needs of both of these fleets, in addition to all the other naval concerns in his area of responsibility (such as shipbuilding, Depot maintenance and expansion, research and development, etc.) . In like fashion, the Domain Grand Admiral has to balance the needs of all the Sector Grand Admirals, for almost exactly the same reasons.

Also, don't forget the probably overwhelming power of the reason, "Tradition." With the Vilani influence on the Imperium, the old cliche, "This was the way it was done when I entered the Navy, this was the way it was done when my father entered the Navy, and his father before him, and his father before him, and..." will take on an entirely new level of meaning. When the Third Imperium was just limited to Core Sector, the highest ranking officer in the navy was the Grand Admiral in charge of all the fleets (which at that time were probably limited to one Sector Fleet and one Reserve Fleet from lack of numbers alone.) As the Imperium expanded, it just never occurred to anyone to change the ranking system. "It's worked okay so far. Why mess with it?"

Just adding my 2 centicreds,

Simon Jester

 

[twb3]

IMTU I guess that I have somewhat downgraded the command responsibilites of senior flag/general officers relative to canon. It seems to me that the top leadership of military force in a domain or sector would be the Archduke of the domain or sector duke.

The largest force commanded by a flag officer is a Command, nominally composed of one fleet (with its Marine division) and one army. A Command is organized to control all the military forces in an area (typically, a sector) or to fight a specific campaign. The number of fleets and armies in a Command is tailored to its mission. A Command is commanded by a top-ranking flag officer (Admiral or General), who takes his orders from the noble in charge of the overall operation.

Fleets and armies are commanded by Vice Admirals and Lieutenant Generals respectively.

A fleet is made up of Task Forces and an army is made up of divisions, commanded by Rear Admirals and Major Generals respectively.

I do use the ranks of Commodore in the Navy and Brigadier in the Army/Marines. IMTU, a Commodore or Brigadier is a brevet (i.e. temporary) promotion of a Captain (Navy) or Colonel (Army/Marines) to give that officer seniority over other officers of the same grade so that they can command a naval Task Group or an army/marine Brigade. When a Commodore/Brigadier relinquishes his command, they revert back to their permanent grade of Captain/Colonel; although I suppose a pompous officer would insist as being addressed as "Commodore" or "Brigadier" thereafter.

In CT character generation, a naval Captain or army/marine Colonel must roll 4 above thier promotion number to be promoted to Rear Admiral / Major General. Otherwise, a successful promotion roll results in a 1-year appointment as a Commodore / Brigadier instead. Each appointment as a Commodore / Brigadier allows a +1 DM to future promotion rolls to Rear Admiral / Major General.

This is all based on the idea that senor nobles would keep the professional military firmly under control, based on the rubric that "war is too important to be left to the generals". The emperor, of course, would wear the rank insignia of a Grand Admiral of the Fleets of the Imperium or General of the Armies of the Imperium when he chose to dress in uniform.

 

[aramis]

I use commodore as a rank IMTU.

I like the title. I also use the confusing dual use IMTU: any commander of a group of ships who is not an admiral.

Then again, I assume the two are NOT the same word in galanglic...

I assume galanglic has used different pronounciations for each use (rank and position) for the following, if not borrowed some other terms. 3000 years of change from English, remember?
    Commander
    Commodore
    Captain

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by thrash:
This question of "rear" and "vice" admirals got kicked around during the writing of the now-defunct draft of GT: Imperial Navy. As was pointed out earlier, the use in TNS is inconsistent with the rank structure from character generation. Best suggestion I can offer on vice admirals and rear admirals is to treat these as positions -- the second and third ranking admirals in any given formation, respectively.

There are canonical references to someone being promoted to vice admiral and to people who retired with the rank of vice admiral, both of which argues against that interpretation.

My suggestion during that playtest was to consider that the Character Generation rules and the TNS newsbriefs constituted a certifiable Canon Conflict and fix the damn thing by introducing three more ranks (Admiral, Vice Admiral, and Rear Admiral) between Fleet Admiral and Commodore. While Chris managed to convince me that it is possible to run a navy many times the size of those wet navies we know on Earth today (which already have ten officer ranks) with only ten ranks by having one rank cover several command levels, I still think it is neater to have them spelled out. I'd have vice and rear admirals would command squadrons while admirals commanded the combined forces stationed at one system. Fleet admirals would then command subsector fleets, sector admirals sector fleets, and grand admirals would sit on the Admiralty.

An alternate suggestion was to regard vice admiral to be the term for fleet admirals on middle third of the list of seniority and rear admirals as the term for fleet admirals (lower 3rd). If you allow 'promotions' that move people up to the bottom of the next third of the list, you can more or less explain away most of the TNS newsbriefs. I don't like it myself, but it might work.

Hans

 

[Simon Jester]

Originally posted by Tom Barnes:
IMTU I guess that I have somewhat downgraded the command responsibilites of senior flag/general officers relative to canon. It seems to me that the top leadership of military force in a domain or sector would be the Archduke of the domain or sector duke.

IMTU at least, the Nobility and the Military are kept separate, by strict order of the Emperor, who heads them both. An archduke would be the highest-ranking civilian in his Domain, and would have at least the ability to activate (if not actually command) the Provincial Forces of his Domain, but the Imperial Forces would remain separate and under the command of the Fleet Admiral or Grand Admiral placed in their command by the Chief of Naval Personnel, Chief of Naval Operations, or the Emperor himself. This way, the ArchDuke wouldn't easily be able to foment rebellion against the Imperium without facing or daling with the Imperial Navy (like Dulinor did, having his brother-in-law bring the Imperial forces to his side). Likewise, those navy forces wishing to mutiny and become pocket empires will be less likely to do so, knowing that they will immediately have to face Provincial forces under a loyal ArchDuke, followed by Imperial forces alerted by same noble. It's all a question of checks-and-balances.

The largest force commanded by a flag officer is a Command, nominally composed of one fleet (with its Marine division) and one army. A Command is organized to control all the military forces in an area (typically, a sector) or to fight a specific campaign. The number of fleets and armies in a Command is tailored to its mission. A Command is commanded by a top-ranking flag officer (Admiral or General), who takes his orders from the noble in charge of the overall operation.

Fleets and armies are commanded by Vice Admirals and Lieutenant Generals respectively.

A fleet is made up of Task Forces and an army is made up of divisions, commanded by Rear Admirals and Major Generals respectively.

I do use the ranks of Commodore in the Navy and Brigadier in the Army/Marines. IMTU, a Commodore or Brigadier is a brevet (i.e. temporary) promotion of a Captain (Navy) or Colonel (Army/Marines) to give that officer seniority over other officers of the same grade so that they can command a naval Task Group or an army/marine Brigade. When a Commodore/Brigadier relinquishes his command, they revert back to their permanent grade of Captain/Colonel; although I suppose a pompous officer would insist as being addressed as "Commodore" or "Brigadier" thereafter.

That is precisely how the rank of Commodore was originally designed to be used, and pretty much is the way the US Navy has gone back to using it.

In CT character generation, a naval Captain or army/marine Colonel must roll 4 above thier promotion number to be promoted to Rear Admiral / Major General. Otherwise, a successful promotion roll results in a 1-year appointment as a Commodore / Brigadier instead. Each appointment as a Commodore / Brigadier allows a +1 DM to future promotion rolls to Rear Admiral / Major General.

This is all based on the idea that senior nobles would keep the professional military firmly under control, based on the rubric that "war is too important to be left to the generals". The emperor, of course, would wear the rank insignia of a Grand Admiral of the Fleets of the Imperium or General of the Armies of the Imperium when he chose to dress in uniform.

Simon Jester

 

[Eamon]

Regarding Navy Ranks
While I believe the Archduke is the highest civilian authority. The Navy would need its own Supreme Commander.
The position of Domain commander would be held a person with the rank of Admiral with the responsability of the administration, training, and maintenance of the Domain Fleet(both active and reserve) to conduct defensive/offensive operations within the Imperial borders.
The rank of Grand Admiral would have the authority of the Domain commander but also have the authority to conduct operations outside Imperial borders. He would be assigned an area of operation that might cross Domain and Sector borders. His forces could include active and reserve fleets and even gound forces.
The position of Sector Admiral would be held by the rank of Vice-Admiral her duties would be the same as the Domain commander but confined to her sector.
The ranks of Rear Admiral and Commodore would command the various Task Forces of the Fleets.
They would also serve on the staffs of the headquarters. Rear Admiral would also be the highest rank a Colonal Fleet officer could hold.

 

[CliffBates]

rank and canon conflict

There are canonical references to someone being promoted to vice admiral and to people who retired with the rank of vice admiral, both of which argues against that interpretation.

My suggestion during that playtest was to consider that the Character Generation rules and the TNS newsbriefs constituted a certifiable Canon Conflict and fix the damn thing by introducing three more ranks (Admiral, Vice Admiral, and Rear Admiral) between Fleet Admiral and Commodore. While Chris managed to convince me that it is possible to run a navy many times the size of those wet navies we know on Earth today (which already have ten officer ranks) with only ten ranks by having one rank cover several command levels, I still think it is neater to have them spelled out. I'd have vice and rear admirals would command squadrons while admirals commanded the combined forces stationed at one system. Fleet admirals would then command subsector fleets, sector admirals sector fleets, and grand admirals would sit on the Admiralty.

An alternate suggestion was to regard vice admiral to be the term for fleet admirals on middle third of the list of seniority and rear admirals as the term for fleet admirals (lower 3rd). If you allow 'promotions' that move people up to the bottom of the next third of the list, you can more or less explain away most of the TNS newsbriefs. I don't like it myself, but it might work.

Hans

I know this is very old but I just found it and I agree with rancke here that there is canon conflict regarding senior Naval ranks. But it was true also with Nobility as well but Canon fixed that with Big C vs small c regarding Count and Viscount.... so perhaps such a fix ought to occur with O7 and O9 ranks-- with

O9a Commodore
O9b Rear Admiral
O10a Vice Admiral
O10 Fleet Admiral
O11 Sector Admiral
O12 Grand Admiral

I thought that Commodore was a bit Jr to be commanding BatRons or CurRon, but not AuxRons, TankRons, as well as DesRons, EscortRons, or PatrolRons. Or subordinate units of BatRons or CruRons (as well as AssultRons or CarrierRons).

Sorry to bring this up after as this post has been so long forgotten.

 

[CliffBates]

Rebooting this Naval Ranks discussion

I came to this late. But there is really a Canon conflict here as was mentioned above.

One way would be to separate the rank versus the position--in a way that happens for captains of smaller ships where O6 rank is reasonable... so an O3-O5 commanding a ship is the Captain.

The Ranks:
Commodore O7
Rear Admiral O8
Vice Admiral O9
Admiral O10
Grand Admiral O11

Command:
Fleet Admiral cmd O9
subSector Admiral staff/admin O9
Sector Admiral O10
Domain Admiral O11

Thoughts?

 

[Condottiere]

The old method is to colour code naval flag rank, if you need to figure out seniority.

 

[salochin999]

commodores for commander of detached cruiser forces
admiral for capital ships

?

 

[CliffBates]

commodores for commander of detached cruiser forces
admiral for capital ships

?

Crusiers are no little thing. And sometimes the Best Fleet Admirals have commaned Crusiers squadrons. I would think Commodores would command AuxRons, TankRons and EscortRons or PatrolRons.

BatRon, CruRon, AssultRon, and StrikeRon would rate a junior Admiral as prep for Fleet or subsector command.

 

[salochin999]

Crusiers are no little thing. And sometimes the Best Fleet Admirals have commaned Crusiers squadrons. I would think Commodores would command AuxRons, TankRons and EscortRons or PatrolRons.

BatRon, CruRon, AssultRon, and StrikeRon would rate a junior Admiral as prep for Fleet or subsector command.

Yeah that's the point I was aiming at - career progression might involve a sidestep before command of a group of capital ships

e.g.

command of non-capital ship
command of capital ship
command of groups of non-capital ships
command of groups of capital ships

 

[Quint]

Regarding Navy Ranks
While I believe the Archduke is the highest civilian authority. The Navy would need its own Supreme Commander. ....SNIP...

Yeah that's pretty much the way I do it IMTU, with the complication that there is some "cross-training" there. The noble with reserve military rank and the military officers who are also nobles. "Captain" is reserved for the commanding office of a vessel.

IMTU, I use (from O1 up to O13) Ensign, Lieutenant, Lt. Commander, Commander, Commander (SG), Flag Commander, Commodore, Fleet Admiral, Rear Admiral, and Sector Admiral, Sector Admiral (SG), Vice Admiral, & Grand Admiral.

Lt Commanders command Escorts, Destroyers, and Frigates, Commanders command Cruisers and Battlecruisers, and Commanders (SG) command Carriers, Dreadnaughts, and Battleships.

Flag Commanders command Squadrons and occasionally Flotillas as a sign of trust or desperation. Commodores command Planetary Fleets, Squadrons, & Flotillas (bigger or more important ones, they are deemed to have the seniority and experience to act with relative independence)

Fleet Admirals command subsector fleets, Rear Admirals command Quadrant Fleets, while Sector Admirals command Sector Fleets. Sector Admirals (SG) are theatre commanders in times of war or crisis. Vice Admirals are Base and Bureau commanders and Grand Admirals are the Lords of the Admiralty.

Now, there are also the Emperors "Pocket Admirals" who can range from Commodores up to Grand Admirals who act as floating envoys, special investigators, and firefighters - often carry an Imperial Warrant and have the matching rank (and experience) to effectively command Naval resources if they have to - as well as browbeat local Governors, corporate managers, and even most nobles (since they all tend to be nobles as well).

D.