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Naval Doctrine - High-Tech vs. Sustainability

Golan2072

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An important point to consider when thinking about Traveller naval doctrines is that of sustainability. With a wide variance in local tech levels between worlds, and with the long transit times from world to world (a week per jump), in many cases warships in need of repairs, maintainance or replacement of small crafts will have to go over quite a distance - and waste precious time in transit - to get to a world with a good starport and high enough TL. Lower-tech ships will be able to find repairs on more worlds, especially near the frontier. On the other hand, navies will want to have the highest possible tech on their ships. So a balance should be struck between the need to have the most sophisticated fleet in the region and the logistical needs of that fleet.

Another related matter is that of production. In a polity where high-tech worlds are rare, producing most of the fleet on these worlds will limit the speed and capacity of fleet production, and will be vulnerable to deep-penetarting raids against the producing worlds (especially if the polity is small and thus its border is relatively close to its core).

Both of these probelms won't be very significant if the polity is large and well-developed (like most Classical Era OTU polities), but with smaller and less developed polities this will be an important point to consider, especially when considering the need to supply and maintain fleets deep in enemy territory.
 
I see a multi-layered concept similar to the german army in the cold war.

+ A prime fleet with top of the tech units based on a few core depots capabel of supporting their technology. During peacetime they rarely go far from the depot systems so they have short logistic chains.

+ A secondary fleet with ships on the average local techlevel that can be supplied from the majority of worlds in a sector. They will be 1-2 tech levels lower in class but get the same training as the prime force and personal moves between those two

+ A terciary fleet with old and outdatet units, often in mothballs with only a few active in peacetime. Crewed by reserve soldiers on a rotating base
 
In the early days of traveller, while the imperium was stated at TL15, most ships seemed to be TL12.

Assumption being that tech Levels were not uniform across the imperium. The closer to the heart of the empire, the more high tech levels planets, and the closer to TL 15, or more likely to be TL15, they became. Out on the edges, naval bases and sector capital could be tech level 14/15 but other major planets would tend to be more likely closer to TL 12 than 15. TL12 tended to the the 'base average' tech level of the starfaring planets.

Post Megatraveller, everything seemed to be TL15!

Yes we like to play with the toys, but... Seemed a little skewered to me.
 
Actually post MT (Hard Times and later) the base Techlevel stabilises around TL12/TL13. This is nicely shown in Assignment:Vigilanty and in the TNE supplements (Victrix, the basic Clipper) often boosted by higher tech J-Drives

So I agree with TL12-13 being base average and TL9-10 being typical for local forces and SDB
 
In the early days of traveller, while the imperium was stated at TL15, most ships seemed to be TL12.
shipyard capacity in the spinward marches breaks down as follows:

tech 15, .382
tech 14, .017
tech 13, .052
tech 12, .192
tech 11, .017
tech 10, .146
tech 09, .192

the weighted average is tech 12.3.
 
There is such a disparity between TL-12 and TL-13 that I would think that Tl12 ships would disappear once sufficient capacity was involved to replace or retrofit the Sub TL-13 ships. You can, for example upgrade a Standard (Non-book 2) Type S to TL 13, add a pair of lasers and a Fuel purifier plant and actually increase your cargo capacity and make a profit doing it. TL13 to TL15 is similar. Since TL15 isn't as prevalent as TL13 is by 993 or even 1105 I would think only major combatants would be pretty much TL15 standard by 1105, but the smaller ships and auxillaries would be following. There certainly shouldn't be any TL12 ships in the inventory by 1105, after all the Atlantic and the Kokirrak are both TL15 but being retired as obsolete. By 1105 the TL14 AHL has been mothballed for over 50 years. So it would seem, that at least for major combatants they are at the max TL available. (It makes sense, after all if you take a TL13 Battleship into combat in 1105, that would be like taking the HMS Drednaught, into combat against the Bismark, or perhaps the USS Monitor against the Bismark.)

For commercial vessels, sure you don't need the edge that you get at the higher TL's especially if you take into account ease of finding parts. The Navy brings parts with them (Fleet Logistics Vessels) so they would not normally need to wait on spare parts.
 
If you want to keep the TL 12 ships out there and sensible, you have to tweak component costs, particularly power plants and armor. A suggested scaling factor on power plants is:
TL 15: MCr 3/dton
TL 13-14: MCr 1/dton (2/EP)
TL 9-12: MCr 0.6/dton (1.8/EP)
TL 7-8: MCr 0.4/dton (1.6/EP)
 
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
There is such a disparity between TL-12 and TL-13 that I would think that Tl12 ships would disappear once sufficient capacity was involved to replace or retrofit the Sub TL-13 ships. You can, for example upgrade a Standard (Non-book 2) Type S to TL 13, add a pair of lasers and a Fuel purifier plant and actually increase your cargo capacity and make a profit doing it. TL13 to TL15 is similar. Since TL15 isn't as prevalent as TL13 is by 993 or even 1105 I would think only major combatants would be pretty much TL15 standard by 1105, but the smaller ships and auxillaries would be following. There certainly shouldn't be any TL12 ships in the inventory by 1105, after all the Atlantic and the Kokirrak are both TL15 but being retired as obsolete. By 1105 the TL14 AHL has been mothballed for over 50 years. So it would seem, that at least for major combatants they are at the max TL available. (It makes sense, after all if you take a TL13 Battleship into combat in 1105, that would be like taking the HMS Drednaught, into combat against the Bismark, or perhaps the USS Monitor against the Bismark.)

For commercial vessels, sure you don't need the edge that you get at the higher TL's especially if you take into account ease of finding parts. The Navy brings parts with them (Fleet Logistics Vessels) so they would not normally need to wait on spare parts.
In the Clasic Era (or the Solomani Rim War, or early-to-mid Rebellion,or even the Civil War), I agree with you 100% - there would be enough high-pop TL15 worlds around to keep the Naval supply trains short, and a single (or even several) black-war attack wouldn't change that too quickly.

In the Hard Times and beyond (1200 and 1248), as well as in Milieu 0, most small polities would have very few high-TL worlds, and thus this would create a bottleneck in fleet-prduction, not to mention the fact that a single black-war raid by a rival would cripple the whole fleet based on spare parts from a single world. Furthermore, most areas into ehich such pocket-empires would want to expand would be dominated by lower-tech worlds, thus creating long supply lines to any expansion fleets.
 
Starports and homeworld TLs need not reflect the true nature of the Navy. As Naval bases can also be fitted with extensive automated manufacturing facilities just need to have a high tech world within sufficient distance (ie. no more than 6 parsecs) away to obtain spare parts. I visualize Naval bases to be like that of the United States has all around the world. Some are pretty high tech in very low tech surroundings.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
Starports and homeworld TLs need not reflect the true nature of the Navy. As Naval bases can also be fitted with extensive automated manufacturing facilities just need to have a high tech world within sufficient distance (ie. no more than 6 parsecs) away to obtain spare parts. I visualize Naval bases to be like that of the United States has all around the world. Some are pretty high tech in very low tech surroundings.
How long does it take to bring a cargo of spare parts, machinery, engineers and/or raw materials from the USA to its offshore naval bases in, say, Southeast Asia? Is this time comparable to this of several parsecs of jump (especially with the typical low-jump available to pocket empires)? Is the USNAVY's intercontinental shipping capacity compatible with that of Traveller polities (I imagine that the Imperial interstellar shipping capacity is greater than anything any Terran polity could do on the seas today, but most pocket empires would usually have comparatively shipping capacities)?
 
I think the "buy outside of your TL" strategy will run into a problem similar to the one experienced by China, Germany and Argentine.

All three nations bought technology (China german Warships around 1900, Germany the F104 Widowmaker and Argentine Typ 209 submarines) that they could not properly handle/maintain. Even during peacetime they suffered (Germany) and when cut of from the supply source the systems became almost useless (China in a war against Japan, Argentine during the Falklands)

The Imperial Navy can pull of the trick with their depots since those are the equivalent to Pearl Harbour or Singapor / HongKong. Heavily armed fortresses with at least massiv repair systems and spare-parts, all at the current fleet techlevel

Local and subsector navies can not since they normally lack those depots. Subsector navies can be equiped up to the maximum TL in the subsector and one cargocraft jump deep into the next subsectors, local forces are better self-sufficient if that siege comes.
 
Originally posted by the Bromgrev:
Hong Kong? Heavily armed fortress? ;)
Well, I am not that well-versed with the costal fortifications of minor island nations :D

So I guess the only major RN port down there was Singapore?
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by the Bromgrev:
Hong Kong? Heavily armed fortress? ;)
Well, I am not that well-versed with the costal fortifications of minor island nations :D

So I guess the only major RN port down there was Singapore?
</font>[/QUOTE]Problem is most naval ports don't fall into the heavily armed fortress classification any more. In these days of nukes, airplanes, and radar - the mobile forces provide the protection and spare parts can be air dropped worldwide within a day.

The supply time and reinforcement time for OTU looks more like the late 18th through mid 19th than the 20th or 21st century.
 
Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
Problem is most naval ports don't fall into the heavily armed fortress classification any more. In these days of nukes, airplanes, and radar - the mobile forces provide the protection and spare parts can be air dropped worldwide within a day.

The supply time and reinforcement time for OTU looks more like the late 18th through mid 19th than the 20th or 21st century.
Only to an extent. Look how long the buildup of forces in the middle east for the last two US "adventures" took. Some things move fast, but some things still move slow.
 
Note to self: Next time give a time frame.

I was refering to the "age of proper warships", basically anything before the rise of the evil carriers when I refered to the oversea bases. So up until early 1940s.

And that time (as SGB has stated) matches the TU in supply times.
 
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
Problem is most naval ports don't fall into the heavily armed fortress classification any more. In these days of nukes, airplanes, and radar - the mobile forces provide the protection and spare parts can be air dropped worldwide within a day.

The supply time and reinforcement time for OTU looks more like the late 18th through mid 19th than the 20th or 21st century.
Only to an extent. Look how long the buildup of forces in the middle east for the last two US "adventures" took. Some things move fast, but some things still move slow. </font>[/QUOTE]Very true.
 
Why is the world's tech level at all relevant to the Starport and/or Naval Base that is attached to the world? A world might have a TL of 4 but still have a Naval Base - does that mean the naval base only caters to that rare breed of starship, powered by coal? Of course not.

Bases and Starports are Imperial installations. Not local ones. The Imperium has a TL of 14 or 15 depending on the setting (I usually go by the Gateway era but CT has TL15 right?). This is realistic. In real life you could have a military base in a place like Afghanistan or East Timor, which have a low TL compared to the West, and these bases will have technology and gadgets that they brought with them. If they break down you go to supply and logistics, you don't go down to Crazy Jose Timor's Bargain Bin Stone-Age Computers to get a replacement.
 
Originally posted by stofsk:
Why is the world's tech level at all relevant to the Starport and/or Naval Base that is attached to the world? A world might have a TL of 4 but still have a Naval Base - does that mean the naval base only caters to that rare breed of starship, powered by coal? Of course not.

Bases and Starports are Imperial installations. Not local ones. The Imperium has a TL of 14 or 15 depending on the setting (I usually go by the Gateway era but CT has TL15 right?). This is realistic. In real life you could have a military base in a place like Afghanistan or East Timor, which have a low TL compared to the West, and these bases will have technology and gadgets that they brought with them. If they break down you go to supply and logistics, you don't go down to Crazy Jose Timor's Bargain Bin Stone-Age Computers to get a replacement.
Again, in the Classic/Gateway Era, you are absolutely correct - the Imperium was big, stable, and with enough high-pop TL15 worlds near the frontier to keep the supply lines bearable. So Imperial bases had imported technology and regular supply lines, with enough big and fast frieghters to carry the load to its destination within a reasonable timeframe.

In the New Era (and Milieu 0 to a lesser degree), things are different. The Imperium is gone (or in 1248 or Milieu 0, very small); low-tech wilds predominate outside most pocket-empires; most worlds within the pocket empires themselves are low-tech; and naval bases are rare. I guess that most Naval Bases in the New Era would be abandoned Old Imperial bases somehow spared the worst parts of the Collapse - and either used by the local TED to build his system-defence (or piracy) fleet or completely abandoned and thus open to plundering by a visiting fleet. New bases would be rarer, and usually either on high-tech recovering worlds, or within sight of a pocket empire with enough resources to regularly supply this base.
 
Originally posted by stofsk:
Why is the world's tech level at all relevant to the Starport and/or Naval Base that is attached to the world? A world might have a TL of 4 but still have a Naval Base - does that mean the naval base only caters to that rare breed of starship, powered by coal? Of course not.

Bases and Starports are Imperial installations. Not local ones. The Imperium has a TL of 14 or 15 depending on the setting (I usually go by the Gateway era but CT has TL15 right?). This is realistic. In real life you could have a military base in a place like Afghanistan or East Timor, which have a low TL compared to the West, and these bases will have technology and gadgets that they brought with them. If they break down you go to supply and logistics, you don't go down to Crazy Jose Timor's Bargain Bin Stone-Age Computers to get a replacement.
Indeed true, the Imperial Navy is something I have always used as the TL15 bogey man, to the more regular Player ship or pockets empires fleet of around TL12-13. Sector and subsector fleets I have tended to have at around TL13-14 for their patrol/reservist ships and TL14-15 for their battle/home fleets.
If the players get all Gavin on me, the Imperials send a gunboat their way soon enough, which will hit twice as hard and twice as often despite being the same size as the PCs ship. Thats tecnology for you.
The thing is that technology is not evenly spread, and the sort of ship most PCs have is going to be 'good enough'and not state of the art.
 
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kafka47:
Starports and homeworld TLs need not reflect the true nature of the Navy. As Naval bases can also be fitted with extensive automated manufacturing facilities just need to have a high tech world within sufficient distance (ie. no more than 6 parsecs) away to obtain spare parts. I visualize Naval bases to be like that of the United States has all around the world. Some are pretty high tech in very low tech surroundings.
How long does it take to bring a cargo of spare parts, machinery, engineers and/or raw materials from the USA to its offshore naval bases in, say, Southeast Asia? Is this time comparable to this of several parsecs of jump (especially with the typical low-jump available to pocket empires)? Is the USNAVY's intercontinental shipping capacity compatible with that of Traveller polities (I imagine that the Imperial interstellar shipping capacity is greater than anything any Terran polity could do on the seas today, but most pocket empires would usually have comparatively shipping capacities)? </font>[/QUOTE]The key here is that there is a stockpile of parts located with the fleet and the resupply is coming from the US is keeping the supply ships stocked. Spare parts are, generally, on hand. Your supply lines don't bring what you need now, they bring what you need later. (At least that is the normal way things work.)
 
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