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Nature of the frontier

kafka47

SOC-14 5K
Marquis
Daryen wrote:
Uh, unless I am misinterpretting this comment, I haven't commented on how "grand" the Imperium was. Remember, I am one of the ones that would just as soon see an OTU "reboot" so that it can be scaled back and given an actual frontier.
Hope folks don't mind me taking this off the main thread and putting it into a separate thread, as it is something that needs to be illuminated.

Often there is the complaint that there is a shortage of real frontiers in mature Traveller. However, I think that only the Sol. Rim is this the case. For the Solomani eager to develop a thrust against the Vilani and then during the Rim War would have developed the Rim intensively.

A case could similarly be made for the Core Sector as the launching pad for the 3I.

But, almost everywhere else is frontier because even after 1116 years most worlds retain membership in an organization that does not demand much from them. Putting up a picket fence and proclaiming after this point "There Be Dragons" fails to realize that the experience of Traveller is that is a constant frontier.

Whilst, the Imperium may have reached its logical limits in terms of expansion and a diminished capacity for creating interstellar crises thereby provoking war and gaining more territory. This is not to say that the Imperium really has a clue what is happening on any of its worlds at any given time. Rather this responsibility is delegated to the local Nobility and the Moot. Who may act in ways that is counter to Imperial interests...eg. stonewalling change or appointing through patronage, etc.

Thus the Imperium is not having a shortage of space to explore, it just bumps into other Interstellar Powers. Notwithstanding, this creates interesting dynamics...say in the Far Frontiers Sector whereby the Imperium and Zhodani Consulate exist through proxy states.

Furthermore, the OTU is not simply the Third Imperium. There is no reason why one cannot play in the areas of the other Interstellar Polities. Their frontiers are certainly more fluid and wide.
 
Fair question.

By "frontier" I mean an open portion of the border where actual exploration needs to be done, and no other major power has already laid claim to it.

Yes, I know that 99% of the territory within the Imperium has not been fully explored. That leaves lots of areas to be checked out. Let's call those areas "micro-frontiers". But that is not what I want. I want "macro-frontiers".

I want a large area (think at least sector sized), conveniently close to "civilization", where a Scout can actually be a Scout! Where every single UWP hasn't been written down and catagorized. Where every relevant sentient race hasn't been coopted, subjugated, or isolated. Where genuine first contacts can be made. Where known empires haven't already laid claim to it. Where I can send an old, almost retired IISS AHL or Leviathan on a five year mission.

There are two locations where this can happen in the OTU: with the Zhodani and with the Solomani. (Or, more properly, happen with human cultures.) While I can make both of those work (and I know how to do the Solomani one), I still wish it could be done with the "default" empire: the Imperium.

Originally, that was what Foreven and the Trojan Reaches were supposed to be for. We even have an adventure (Adv4) using that assumption in the Trojan Reaches. But now we know how much of a farce that adventure was, because the Reaches are full and all of the worlds are already claimed by others. And Foreven isn't even much better, as it is filled with Zhodani worlds, a huge Zhodani client state, and already "known" buffer worlds.

That's another part of it too: all of the various interstellar states know all of the other states. I want it to be possible to meet others that I *don't* know about, and who don't know about me. And by "others" I mean other interstellar societies, not just isolated, low-tech worlds.

I don't care if there are parts of New York City that haven't been properly explored. I don't want to find out about some special mutant rat or sewer alligator. I want to be able to find Atlantis and meet its people.
 
start over with foreven and the trojan reaches. draw it up yourself, populate it, and off you go. there's a nice big frontier. you can even do away with the zhodani - say they were never there, and look at all that territory.
 
I've felt the same way about the OTU. When I started my current campaign I switched to the T20 melieu I set my campaign in The Aldebaran sector and backed up the start date to a couple of years before the beginning of the Solomoni-Rim War, so that the area is still part of the Imperium. Also means that I'll have lot's of civil-war fun coming later in the campaign.
 
If you start with a sector way outside the Imperium or any other alien race's territory or pocket empire, then what is actually tying what you create to the OTU? It'd essentially be a whole new setting in itself, wouldn't it?
 
It is a problem with Traveller's age that many of the frontiers have been 'worked' on.

For example the Trojan Reach started out as the Outrim Void in Adv4 and then grew in Atlas and TI and the DGP stuff.

I remember the days of Traveller's Digest (I was working in a RPG shop at the time) and Traveller fans were pretty happy with DGPs sector data. However, I have to say, there is a utility in vagueness - outline a sector by map, key UWPs and a bit of library data and leaved at that FOREVER!!!! In fact Sector One's Theta Borealis is not bad for that purpose.
 
Originally posted by Elliot:
I remember the days of Traveller's Digest (I was working in a RPG shop at the time) and Traveller fans were pretty happy with DGPs sector data. However, I have to say, there is a utility in vagueness - outline a sector by map, key UWPs and a bit of library data and leaved at that FOREVER!!!! In fact Sector One's Theta Borealis is not bad for that purpose.
While this sounds good in theory (and it probably did to me, too, at the time), in reality it is the worst of all worlds. Now, there is established 'canon' for those sectors, but with maddeningly little info to back it up. So, unless you just throw it all away, you are trapped by the UWPs.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. Foreven is supposed to be a "referee's preserve". Great. But, we know what the interstellar borders of the region are, we even know the names of the interstellar polities are. We even know where the capitals of those polities are. And we know all of this is common 'in-game' knowledge. So, while each referee is free to create whatever he wants within that framework knowing there would never be further material published on that sector, he needs to work within that framework or he can still be stomped by related canon.

And, even with all of that, regardless of what the referee does come up with, Foreven still isn't a frontier. The Imperials known who the Avalar Consulate is. They still know which worlds are Zhodani, Zhodani clients, Avalar, and Imperial clients. While the players don't know, the characters sure do.
 
Let me try to explain as succinctly as possible. For its entire history, Traveller has tried and tried to make "Charted Space" as big as possible, and give a UWP to every damn world in every sector we can find a name for.

What I want is some "Uncharted Space" in close proximity to the Imperium. And not just a crummy sector surrounded by more charted space. I want a hard, long edge across which the charted map does not go. No UWPs, no known interstellar polities, no dotmaps, no 'Map of the Imperium' level maps, nothing.

That is what I mean by "Frontier".
 
But, realistically, why would there be a hard frontier unless there is some sort of artificial thing which is limiting exploration? Frontiers tend to be pretty porous and deep otherwise. You're not going to have well developed worlds and then a hard border a few parsecs away where everything is virgin territory. More like well developed worlds, a broad section of less developed worlds, and then, eventually, completely untouched territory.

Ron
 
I would like a sector of underdeveloped worlds followed by uncharted space. To me UPP's offer only a little information and there is a lot up to the GM as far as what kind of place it is.
 
I think the real point is that an Imperium that's only a subsector (or two) in size is plenty darn big enough to keep a dozen companies in business developing products and supplementation.
I heartily agree with the sentiment expressed by both Elliot and daryen...I want a frontier, a MASSIVE frontier that isn't hemmed-in by the existing canon of adjoining sectors and subsectors. A playground where both GM's and players can romp freely if they want...or play in the heavily-canonized environment of the Imperium.
While it's been fascinating to watch the OTU grow as a piece of literary fiction...it's been stifling as a GM. The TU didn't BEGIN as such a vastly canonized setting...it BECAME one. That's what limited the definition of USER defined frontier areas. Simply creating an empty preserve sector, surrounded by a bunch of developed territory doesn't really leave room for the same kind of creativity that an unbounded frontier offers.
 
Simply creating an empty preserve sector, surrounded by a bunch of developed territory doesn't really leave room for the same kind of creativity that an unbounded frontier offers.
whose creativity?
 
The Gm's creativity. I CAN'T locate MY sector just anywhere...simply because it wouldn't make sense sitting in the midst of a mature Imperium, or wedged in-between client states or alien polities. It NEEDS to be edge-on to the great unknown...and that's meant locating it waaaay the hell out in the Theron sector.
With a smaller TU, you still have PLENTY of room for "professional" development, it becomes easier for GM's to link adventures - and with the development of an "open" frontier you encourage creativity and active participation in the game, actually have a Scout Service that makes sense, and let practically everybody have their cake and eat it, too.
 
But, realistically, why would there be a hard frontier unless there is some sort of artificial thing which is limiting exploration?
The "frontier line" refers to canon as much as anything else. If a close frontier makes sense to you, then that is what it is. If you think there has to be a sector deep "buffer" between the Imperium and the "real" frontier, then do that. Either way, I want the decision of what that frontier actually is to be made by the referee, not the makers of the game.

"just" a crummy sector? four hundred forty worlds isn't enough? yikes.

what would you do with several sectors of blank map?
I don't want several sectors. I want a hard edge to the existing map that is close to the Imperium. The issue is not the number of worlds. The issue is that if the space is bounded, it becomes implicitly defined, removing the chance for significant exploration and first contacts.

whose creativity?
signless is absolutely correct. The problem with a single sector that is surrounded by known territory, is that there are massive limitations on what can be in that sector. I thought I was pretty clear on the issue with my Foreven example.

While I am definitely in the "small Imperium" camp, an example in the OTU of what I want is to do the following:
- Move the Zhodane sector rimward one full sector, replacing Yiklerzdanzh. This will require redrawing the Consulate, but, oh well.
- Push the Vargr around to trailing and a little rimward. Put their homeworld somewhere in Empty Quarter.
- Take the coreward border of Far Frontiers, Foreven, Spinward Marches, Deneb, Corridor, Vland, Lishun, Antares, and continue it "forever" to both spinward and trailing. Never officially define anything coreward of this border. No star maps, no interstellar borders, no UWPs, no nothing. Leave it up to the referee to define.

That is the type of frontier I am talking about. What is coreward then? Who knows? Let each referee decide how deep the client states reach. Let each referee decide how far around the Vargr and Zhodani stretch.

The point is that you need a hard edge like that, or you won't have any true "macro" frontiers for players to explore without leaving the Imperium far, far behind.
 
based on what you've said before you seem to have loads of creativity. just what do you want from the gaming company?

it sounds like your campaign needs to be out in theron. why do you want the imperium reduced so that it can be closer?
 
What I'd like to see from a gaming company is the development of several lines of "Variant" supplements. Lines which encourage exploring roads less-taken in the TU...cyber/bio/ultra-tech...more than one "Ancient" race...a listing of worlds culled from science-fiction literature (NOT the movies...that's been done to death)...exploring the impact of breaking the jump-6 barrier...with a section of each supplement which offers suggestions on how to integrate the "Variant" material into the "official" TU. By that, I mean an exploration of the impact such "variants" would have on the "official" setting.
Basically, the creation of a NEW traveller line which caters to the "Variant" crowd. Creating a smaller Imperium with a fixed, "hard" border, allows GM's to start plugging-in the setting of their choice in the undeveloped frontier...while keeping the staid Imperium close-at-hand (relatively speaking) so his/her adventuring party can take part in the adventures being published for the "official" TU.
 
set up the base imperium, write up a variant, and see what hunter, mjd, et al think. sounds like you already have something good.
 
I did something along those lines when I did my Terran Confederation campaign. I set the preconditions, technology, sociology, races and such. Then I extrapolated based on that. The tech assumptions and sociology of the setting allowed me to extrapolate what the game universe would look like. Just a few changes from the OTU, in tech and sociology, lead to a much different TU. Variants can be cool and interesting.
 
Originally posted by daryen:
I want a hard edge to the existing map that is close to the Imperium. The issue is not the number of worlds. The issue is that if the space is bounded, it becomes implicitly defined, removing the chance for significant exploration and first contacts.

[...]

While I am definitely in the "small Imperium" camp, an example in the OTU of what I want is to do the following:
- Move the Zhodane sector rimward one full sector, replacing Yiklerzdanzh. This will require redrawing the Consulate, but, oh well.
- Push the Vargr around to trailing and a little rimward. Put their homeworld somewhere in Empty Quarter.
- Take the coreward border of Far Frontiers, Foreven, Spinward Marches, Deneb, Corridor, Vland, Lishun, Antares, and continue it "forever" to both spinward and trailing. Never officially define anything coreward of this border. No star maps, no interstellar borders, no UWPs, no nothing. Leave it up to the referee to define.

That is the type of frontier I am talking about. What is coreward then? Who knows? Let each referee decide how deep the client states reach. Let each referee decide how far around the Vargr and Zhodani stretch.

The point is that you need a hard edge like that, or you won't have any true "macro" frontiers for players to explore without leaving the Imperium far, far behind.
OK, let me think about that. You're wanting a nice long unexplored side, which sounds cool.

My preference is to wipe out the data directly Spinward of the Imperium: put the edge on the Spinward Marches. Shift the Zhodani coreward and trailing, pushing them over into Gvurrdon a bit, and greatly shrink the Aslan presence in Troy -- maybe a rift in Troy might help there (don't know how to best manage the Ihatei incursions, haven't thought enough about it).

But it'd be convenient if the Spinward Marches were the frontier, and Foreven were (almost) completely off the map (except for Alenzar, of course).
 
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