Muad'dib Pendragon
SOC-9
I finally acquired the book and had an opportunity to go through it. I posted my review here: http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/15/15885.phtml
My T5 Review
- Thread starter Muad'dib Pendragon
- Start date
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Another review that tells us that T5 is an embarrassment--like one of those computer games that spends a decade in development only to hit the market unfinished and below everyone's expectations.
I guess I'll see for myself Monday (or so) when my book arrives. I may be putting mine on eBay soon.
This gets me down. I really wanted T5 to be AWESOME!
I mean, how can so many Traveller fans report that T5 is a poorly written RPG? Marc Miller developed it, for over ten years. Hardcore Traveller fans vetted it.
How can it be this bad?
I guess I'll see for myself Monday (or so) when my book arrives. I may be putting mine on eBay soon.
This gets me down. I really wanted T5 to be AWESOME!
I mean, how can so many Traveller fans report that T5 is a poorly written RPG? Marc Miller developed it, for over ten years. Hardcore Traveller fans vetted it.
How can it be this bad?
Baltech Budapest
SOC-12
That's a well written, well balanced review. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Strangely, the negative aspects don't discourage me at all.
In Marc's latest KS update (No. 52) he mentions that has lots of T5 stuff planned.
I think if there are going to be supplements and, most importantly, a player's book, then the core book will make much more sense.
Hemdian has made a video walk-through guide to chargen so I intend to follow that once my book arrives.
Strangely, the negative aspects don't discourage me at all.
In Marc's latest KS update (No. 52) he mentions that has lots of T5 stuff planned.
I think if there are going to be supplements and, most importantly, a player's book, then the core book will make much more sense.
Hemdian has made a video walk-through guide to chargen so I intend to follow that once my book arrives.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
It's got me in the dumps! Sure, I'm still eager to see for myself, and I should be doing that soon. But, there's so much negativity that I don't think they all can be wrong.
The best I can hope for is that my expectations are lowered so much that I will find a gem among the ash.
This is both good and bad, imo.
It's good, because, T5 may be improved and actually become a good game! (As I said, I haven't actually seen T5 yet, so take that sentence with a grain of salt.)
It's bad because, if T5 is as poor as most are saying it is, it needs more books to fix it. Why do I want to invest in a game like that, especially when I love Classic Traveller and own just about everything ever printed for that game?
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Baltech Budapest
SOC-12
I totally understand your reasoning with this one. I'm in a similar situation to you in that I have just about everything related to CT. I don't actually 'need' T5 as I'm perfectly happy with CT.
However, when I mentioned Marc's intentions to publish further T5 materials, it was in my mind that he would (hopefully) produce a player's book. I think this was mentioned in the KS at some point.
As you know I don't yet have the core book so I am basing this on reviews I have read such as the one posted above: A player's guide with examples and a well laid out structure would be the perfect way to introduce new players to the system without the information overkill of a 650+ page book, and would also be a great companion to the core book (A T5 'lite' core book?).
Examples in the player's book can be cross referenced in the big book so the 2 books would complement each other well.
I doubt I would buy supplement after supplement myself as, like you, I am happy with my CT collection.
If the T5 core book is 'broken' then there is no point in buying endless add-on books which try to 'fix' it.
Again, from what I have read, this doesn't seem to be the case. The most common complaints I have read so far relate to the structure of the book and how things are explained.
The reason why I am not disheartened by negative reviews is because we have such a great community here who are, as we speak, discussing and chewing over aspects of the book which people are having trouble with.
I know (again from what I have read) that T5 is most certainly not a 'pick up and go' system so I am totally prepared for that.
I'd love to hear your views on the book once you get around to reading through it Supplement Four.
I'll also post my comments once I have read mine.
Speaking from a personal point of view, it's going to take a lot to make me switch from CT. Will T5 be the book to do this? Only time will tell.
If I don't like it then it will stay on my shelf with other Traveller games that I don't currently play (MT, TNE and MGT) and be part of my collection.
Muad'dib Pendragon
SOC-9
I think a big part of the problem is it's designed for those same hardcore fans; those who have the experience (good and bad) and patience (or is that gluttony for punishment?) to take the product at face value, pick and choose what they use, gloss over its bad points, and move on.
Muad'dib Pendragon
SOC-9
I imagine more than a few will have your same view. There's nothing wrong with that.
A player's book could do wonders to make T5 more palatable for new/inexperienced players, as well as to put this book in the proper context (in my view) of a toolbox/reference.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
It strongly appears from your review that you did not read it in detail cover to cover, but skimmed. Not sure how you can claim otherwise having had the book for so short a period.
Anyone who is familiar with Trav in any iteration is familiar with the need to house rule. Heck, I have had to house rule things in absolutely every RPG I have ever played or GM'd. No RPG written by someone else is able to see every situation for every player or GM.
On the other hand, the lack of detailed examples is crippling for the non-grognard Trav person. Also, how is it that Don (an overly organized person) and Rob (a reasonably organized person) were unable to convince Marc to offer better organization I cannot say. The lack of internal divisions for, say, the Essentials, For Experts, For GMs, Example Adventure, etc are somewhat disheartening for those who expressed just those ideas in Beta.
Further, many of the grammatical errors that made it into the final printing were pointed out during the last several months of vetting. Not sure how they managed to survive to the printer.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I like games that I don't have to alter. My goal is always to play a game as written. In practice, I usually end up with one or two small tweaks--which are usually a "taste" thing.
For example, in my current Conan RPG campaign, I've added a semi-fumble rule when a natural "1" is thrown on a combat attack throw, and I've chosen to use the Pathfinder version of a skill use (Demoralize Other)--mainly because I think the Pathfinder version encourages the use of Demoralize Other in the game.
Neither of these tweaks are substantial changes to the rule system, and I could easily play the same game without the two tweaks.
I haven't played Classic Traveller in quite a while, but the last time I ran a game, I used it RAW. I didn't change a single rule. I even use the Computer Rules for Space Combat (I actually like them!).
Plus, I do think that some CT rules are meant to be customized, like chargen. I'm not sure I'd call it a "House Rule"--maybe more of an expected alteration--when/if I change a skill or two in the Marine career, for example, to fit the TL and conditions on a particular world (Let's say I needed some TL 6 Marines on Aramanx, I'd make a few changes to the skill lists).
Many people House Rule, and that's fine for them.
It's not my "speed". I like a game to stand on its own legs.
With Traveller's creator working on the game for over a decade, along with Traveller's Best, one would think that we would all be raving about this game.
Muad'dib Pendragon
SOC-9
I haven't claimed anything other than to say I acquired and reviewed the book. You are more than welcome to take or leave my review.
While this is certainly historically true of Traveller, I think the latest iterations of the game (at least the core) have actually become more coherent. In addition, while houseruling is a common RPG player trait regardless of system, typically based on wanting to cover a particular aspect a ruleset may not cover clearly or at all, it should not be the de facto requirement, especially for a $75 initial investment. More importantly, it shouldn't be a requirement for those who might be interested in the game but have never played it. If someone is interested in Traveller, but has never played it, T5 (in my opinion) is definitely NOT the place to start.
Absolutely agree. I think had this book been presented more clearly, with concrete examples of every system and subsystem, and in a slightly different way (ie toolbox vs full-fledged RPG), it would have proven far more useful to a far greater audience.
I thought this particularly unfortunate, especially given the amount of time and people involved.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
And yet those are house rules, exactly as I use house rules and exactly how I meant my remark.
Really? You actively used the body armor chart? (pp 46-47 from LBB1)
Every time, you used every rule in the LBB's? If not, you house ruled. Do not deceive yourself, even if you consider the rule change strictly "for taste" you do not use an RPG as written every time. No one does.
Never happens with any tabletop game ever released. There are always faults in first editions. That is why there are second editions. Take it from a guy who has to read Mathematical treatises for my research, it seems the smarter/more specialized the writer, the more bugs in the system (especially in higher level Math theory...
)
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
I take it you haven't recently gotten into a new RPG. The basic players books seem to run ~40 USD for hardbacks now, and you often at least two to make the game playable.
Mongoose core book (recent purchase-January) $40, but barely playable with it as the equipment is too thin. Can generate characters and adventures(ish) but must have Central Supply Catalog (40 bucks) to make take it to true (non starship, non-vehicular) usability. If you want a decent spread of vehicles, Vehicle book (35 bucks); starships, Mongoose High Guard (35 bucks, 25 for soft cover). And MongTrav has no makers system to build what you want when you want. Vehicles has it and a supplement to get you to vehicle creation and starships have High Guard, but I have yet to find a general device maker for it.
My group wants to do Pathfinder, but each of the really mandatory three books are about 40 each. Fortunately we may be able to get away with one set between us.
Sadly, the days of relatively inexpensive RPG books is gone...
warmaster40k
SOC-6
Well a key thing to point out is this, its not a true review, but a capsule review. He never played it. The thing I seem to be getting from all of the reviews is this, the book is big scary and unorganised, but the game plays fine if you give it a chance. So what does this tell me, Marc tried to do too much out the gate. This book is actually the a core book with several sourcebooks thrown in. To do it right it needs to pared down to the core features of the classic traveller experience. This makes editing each book easier, while minimise issues of lacking a index. So what does a traveller game need, well the classic traveller LBB 1-3 provide a great example of a corebook.
Muad'dib Pendragon
SOC-9
I have, actually. And while many are in the $40 retail range (distributors, eBay much cheaper) that may require multiple books, there are quite a few I have purchased and played (Burning Wheel gold, Labyrinth Lord, Diaspora, to name a few) that retail in the $20-$30 range and are completely playable in one book.
Fair enough. That said, as a core book Mongoose Traveller is far more coherently put together and usable than T5 (in my opinion). In addition, each supplement spells out a particular facet that may or may not be of interest to a given player/group. That's the beauty of supplements, is it not?
Actually, you could get away with just the main book and the publicly available SRD here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/.
I daresay independent publishers are doing a fine job filling the gap (Burning Wheel, Diaspora, Fate et al). You just have to look around a bit for something that interests you.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
My point is: there are House Rules, and then there are HOUSE RULES. My tweaks barely qualify. If I changed things wholesale, big parts of the time, systems, that's more of what I think of as House Rules.
For example, somebody using the TNE task system with CT would be what I think of as a HOUSE RULE.
By pure definition, sure, I changed the printed word, and my two tweaks are, indeed, house rules.
I think others changes rpgs far more than I do, though, and I think your comment more appropriate for them--rather than a blanket comment for all.
Absolutely.
I don't refer to the charts every hit, though. Each piece of equipment has its own sheet, and on that sheet, like an RPG stats, the armor (and range, for that matter) adjustments are listed.
When a player fires his weapon, he can see what his enemy is wearing and adjusts his to hit roll appropriately.
It's pretty simple, really. Instead of adding or subtracting X for Range, you also add or subtract for armor.
No need to look at charts.
There have been games where I heavily house ruled, in the past. In the last decade or so, I tend to run games as-is.
There, it is you, young padawan, that is deceiving himself. I ran my Conan campaign, during its first year, strictly by the book, until recently making the two tweaks I mention above.
I ran a James Bond (Victory Games) campaign, strictly by the book. No house rules at all.
I ran a Top Secret/SI game, strictly by the book. No changes.
And, my last CT game was...strictly by the book. No changes.
I ran an AD&D 2E game, exactly by the book--but I think that ruleset needs some changes. If I run it again, I'll probably house rule that one.
My point is that there are people out there, like me, that either do not house rule at all (not even taste tweaks) or use the game 99.99% RAW with a few simple taste tweaks.
You are very incorrect in thinking that everybody house rules.
Actually...it does happen.
Marc, in many ways, is not the creator of what most of us think of as Traveller, in the sense that much of the CT corpus, all of the MT corpus, All of the TNE Corpus, plus all of the MGT corpus are written by others, who only partially shared Marc's vision.
Much of the OTU looks to be directly growing out of the minds of Loren Wiseman, the Brothers Keith, and some help from several others, Frank Chadwick, John Harshman and Tim Brown included.
Knowing also that GDW put marc back onto board games, and let Loren drive the later CT era, and then outsourced to DGP's Joe Fugate & Gary Thomas Jr, with Terry McInnis, Chuck Gannon, and Dave Nilson.
And then they kept Marc on boardgames during TNE... Frank Chadwick, Dave Nilson doing the core.
We really haven't seen Marc's vision. We've seen GDW's collective vision, then DGP's, then back to GDW's, then Courtney Solomon's accepted expansions upon Marc's T4 core (which is remarkably close to T5 in first principles... but with a holdover tech base from TNE's FF&S.)
T20, GT, HT and MGT are all out-house. Done under license. Not Marc's vision. (GT looks a lot like "Loren's Traveller" to me - in the initial offering, it looked very much to be highlighting the Loren contributions, and downplaying that which disagreed with them. Probably because Loren wrote GT.)
Until T5, that is.
T5, we finally get into Marc's Traveller. This edition is almost all Marc. For better or worse, this is what Marc feels should be there.
Muad'dib Pendragon
SOC-9
Correct, save for running through some of the subsystems and "makers," I did not play it. I have, however, played CT, MT, GT, and MongTrav without any real issues (MT had a lot of errata, I'll admit). As such, I feel confident enough to speak to T5's playability.
T5 is absolutely big and unorganized. As to scary... only in relation to its disorganization and presentation. Could an experienced Traveller grognard make something of it? Sure. Could an experienced gamer or someone unfamiliar with Traveller be successful? I highly doubt it.
Yes and no. Marc created his Magnum Opus, which is great for him and some of the long time grongards, but not so much for so many others. The book is titled as a core book, but not from the role-player's perspective in my view. If anything, the book is much more a referee's book/toolbox, as I've repeatedly indicated. Why else would there be discussion of publishing a player's book?
I have the Central Supply Catalogue, but only because I collected the Mongoose books. Been playing Mongoose Traveller without ever looking through that book though.
I see groups of Pathfinder players at tables and the GM has his core book with him and that's it. The players don't even have books. Again, it's a book collectors thing to have the advanced Pathfinder books. But rarely used for playing a game. And certainly not mandatory.
Nothing sad about Savage Worlds prices and other softback books. Even Mongoose sold LBB versions of their Traveller.
Last edited:
Muad'dib Pendragon
SOC-9
Absolutely agree. It's his vision and, I assume, it works well for him.
Many, including yours truly, had high hopes for T5, and wanted it to be more than it is. Unfortunately, in a world where it's better to under-promise and over-deliver, I fear Marc has actually got it backward. A pity, really.
Similar threads
