Munchkins

[RabidVargr]

We've all put up with them in the past, as player and GM. How is it that you handled your Munchkin when they got out of hand? Also, what kinds of preventative measures do you use to stop munchkinism in your groups?

RV

 

[far-trader]

Just a little bit tongue in cheek...

GM "A micro meteorite comes hurtling from space and... (rolling dice, pondering the nice sound they make and totally ignoring the numbers) strikes your character in the head, gee, he's dead."

MP "But do you realise the odds of a person being hit by a meteorite?"

GM "Oh, about the same as the odds that you rolled a character with those stats the first try, roll up a new set of stats for me here and now please."

True it's just one aspect of munchkinism to discard any character that doesn't have well above average scores for every stat, but one reason I like systems that start everybody out equal, like a point buy system. The rest of it is a matter of education in playing I guess, I think we all go through a munkin phase

Dan "far-trader" Burns

 

[DrSkull]

I've found that munchkinism isn't so much of a probelm in Traveller as it is in other games. The GM determines whetehr there are any plasma guns in the players' hands, and that's that.

But this does remind me a bit of my current D&D game. We're playing a Viking-style game and I had created a bunch of specific classes for the campaign, one of which was a berserker. One player was admiring the killing power of the party's berserker and said--now if he could only be a multi-class with a monk. A MONK! What is his major malfunction?!!!! A berserker-monk!! That is just wrong on so many levels. Yes, it would be "powerful" but it is just so wrong, so filthy. He never could quite understand what I was talking about, the munchiness of it clouded all reason and decorum.

 

[MJD]

I prefer to be direct. God-GM Kills The Munchkins' Charatcres is somewhat petty.

My take is "I'm not happy with how this is going... It's too munchkin for me. That means that I'm habving no fun as ref, and if I'm not enjoying, I don't run the game. Go figure...."

 

[RabidVargr]

I personally don't like the idea of striking the character dead, even though it's convenient. In the dnd3e game I was in most recent, we had a guy doing some 96 points of damage a turn with an axe and it was pretty obnoxious. In my games, they roll in front of me, but I've had a few players do what they can to twist the rules to suit them. They're the primary target most often, serving as a distraction for the rest of the team to finish the beasties off. Cant wait for him to charge in in his heavy armor the first time in trav and get scragged cause he's in open ground and gets smacked by a Plasma gun.

RV

-Those whines are music to a Vargr's ears... muhahaha

 

[far-trader]

Well, as I said, it was a little tongue in cheek. It's more an example of the one sided meta game logic munchkins will throw in the GM's face than the way I'd handle it in RL. As stated I usually prefer a point buy system so nobody starts out with a huge advantage, or I have them roll in front of me and play what they get (unless it's truly, tragically, most decidedly, well below average overall). Most of the other munchkin issues are a matter of teaching that it is a 'role' playing game, and everyone is supposed to have fun, GM included. I suppose I should have been clearer. Or perhaps I took the whole 'petty' thing the wrong way (personally) in which case, never mind

From the other side of the table I'd want the GM to do 'something' to de-munchkinize a game before I'd want to play in it. I've been suckered into too many games where I roll a character, take what I get, and craft a personality and role, only to show up at the game and find the 'regulars' have implemented all the unspoken house rules and are monstrous killing machines with the personality of a tree stump (each identically kitted in the 'regular' killer standard, 'bestest' weapon and armor), but those games are more the fault of a munchkin GM. Oops, I'm ranting again (and exaggerating just a hair), time for my 'meds'

Dan "far-trader" Burns

 

[RabidVargr]

Actually, come to think of it, I think I've had the most fun playing characters with average attribs, maybe one good, one bad. (and no, Charisma isn't it.) Average characters are cool, cause you've actually gotta *TRY*. It's more realistic (I'm a realism fan, thank you) and when you get hacked once or twice by an Axe, I think you should fall down, or both parts of you. Average characters actually use cover, use tactics, and all around are more inventive. Got a character with a str of 6? Make him a good long distance shot and keep out of the bar. A wisdom of 6? Make him a Vargr! An IQ of 6? Human! Charisma of 6? Aslan, definatly. All of those a 6? Well, we don't talk about Trader Jim and his pinkie crew like that.

RV

 

[Spinward Scout]

I really hope this doesn't sound mean, but how does a Referee let a character "get away" with the munchkin character getting in the game to begin with? Give the character the Regina Rot or something else to knock down the high Strength or Endurance a couple of points. You think characters are munchkins now? Just wait until T20 comes out. Multiclasses up the wazoo. And if the players want to incorporate ideas from the d20 D&D Epic Characters Handbook, the Referee is in some for some bad juju. In our current D&D game, I have a 7th level Half-Orc Barbarian/Ranger/Cleric who is really kicking some butt. And T20 Traveller characters can concievable be at 7th level before play even starts. It's going to take a very wiley Referee to keep munchkinism out of his T20 game.

Later,

Scout

 

[Shadowdancer]

Our first Traveller campaign, we were all munchkins, even the GM -- me!
All the characters were killing machines, and I let them have all the neatest equipment.
And their space ship -- I let them upgrade too powerfully too quickly. Soon they were rich (due to a misapplication of the trading rules on my part) and had a whole fleet of powerful ships, crewed by NPCs just as powerful as the PCs. What a nightmare!

It was a learning experience, but we all had fun. In later games, I exercised more restraint, especially during the character creation phase. All roles done in front of me. And I had the final say on all interpretations and applications of the rules. It was a lot saner, and just as much fun.

Save yourself the headaches later and exercise some control right from the start. Don't let them play a character you don't supervise the creation of. And don't reward them with too much too soon. Keeps them hungry, and in line.

 

[cgriffen]

Originally posted by RabidVargr:
How is it that you handled your Munchkin when they got out of hand? Also, what kinds of preventative measures do you use to stop munchkinism in your groups?

Take their toys away. I don't like to play the Grinch as referee in my campaigns. The players do get a hold of many of the things they want if they have the money. Battle dress, combat armor, high-energy weapons. But alas, as in real life, material possessions are so fleeting!

The ref giveth and the ref taketh away. Events always manage to conspire against the players such that those hotly desired baubles slip from their fingers eventually.

The way I see it, if "munchkin" items weren't meant to be owned, they wouldn't make them available. However, you can't have a good campaign if the players deal with every problem by punching a truck-sized plasma burn hole through it.

As for preventative measures? Just the knowledge that I will eventually take those goodies away makes them less desirable. The players go for things that they know I won't obstruct like character development and success.

 

[PVernon]

I have found that most PCs that just have to have things like combat armor destroy them on their own. I had a guy that just had to have power armor, he found that rocks just don't give. The best part was I did not have to do anything to set up the situation he did all of the work on his own, he even rolled the dice. It was wonderfull!

 

[aoehler]

I have to agree with ScoutCadet. If you're not playing a striker type game, then how do the characters even get access to those goodies in the first place? And MJD's comments... a good referee should know ahead of time what type of game the players want...

On low law level planets, I would start by making things very expensive... and they're not available right away (special order) and maybe they walk into a sting, or maybe the seller gets busted while the deal goes down.

Can anyone say prison time? A record is a good reason to lower someone's soc. score. (But maybe they lift weights while in prison).

Lot's of ways exist for creative referees.

 

[autochthonic]

It took my bunch of players a long time to get through the Tarsus adventure. Mostly because they spent 7 years in jail for using claymore mines in their hotel.

 

[Uncle Bob]

No matter how bad players get, the Ref can be worse. The trick is to stay low enough profile that you never find out what orbital bombardment with meson guns feels like.

Munchkens are not subtle enough to survive in that universe.

 

[vegascat]

Ah, you gave the munchkins too many toys to play with, well, give them a friend. How about a person, high in the back street kind of skills who helps himself to their ship while they are getting pounded in a bar brawl. They run to the port to hop on the ship to evade kangaroo court, and lo and behold, NO SHIP!!

What do they do now? Oh is that their ship up in orbit? And where is Sly, the newest party member, the one who changed the computer codes for us?

The GM giveth, and the GM taketh away. It also give you a good McGuffin.

------------------------------
In the end, Murphy will rule

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

you can go too far the other way too.

I had a campaign where: to keep things simple (that group REALLY didn't like the trade tables)all the players had been shanghaid into Imperlines Even gave them a couple of extra skills and approximately a year's worth of past history.

I was trying NOT to be one of those Refs with overly intrusive uber-NPC's

I was trying NOT to be too generous and encourage munchikinism.

The players were having fun but their characters, who were getting screwed out of their pay and led by a boss who would give vague orders and then disapear somewhere. The characters became utterly mercenary and gave up on the company.

 

[GBoyett]

As someone previously mention, there is munchkin GMing.

How many here rolled up a subsector and fudged the results?

I remember doing subsectors with almost all of the worlds had at least type B starports, most tech levels were based on roll of 5 or 6, and most worlds were industrial or rich.

Of course this lended to an average tech of 14 and the highest being 16 or 17.

 

[James Bolivar DiGriz]

“We've all put up with them in the past, as player and GM. How is it that you handled your Munchkin when they got out of hand? Also, what kinds of preventative measures do you use to stop munchkinism in your groups?”

Two of the most common solutions, don’t allow them in the first place or creatively take away that which makes them too powerful, have already been mentioned.

Since RPG’s are all about having fun, I try to understand what type of game the players are after. I have gone out of my way to create and DM munchkin campaigns before. Since this isn’t my preferred type of game as a GM, though, I point out that these are side adventures with unique characters generated for them.

I have also explained to players that I just don’t have an adventure prepared for the type of character they want to play. I have then offered them the alternatives of modifying their current player to fit the campaign, rolling a new one, or using a pre-generated character (I create pre-generated characters for all campaigns I create to test them for balance as I create them. It also makes it easy for people to join and leave the group – which tends to happen more frequently now than it did 20 years ago). Most players understand the time it takes to prepare for a game session and that part of the fun is making sure it’s been tailored to the characters strengths and weaknesses so everyone is essential and gets a chance to contribute.

Just for the nostalgia’s sake I always throw in a situation that makes the characters, regardless of their stats, feel god-like only to remind them later that there is always someone else more powerful. It keeps the game fun while not allowing them to take their character’s lives for granted.

 

[DaveShayne]

Originally posted by George Boyett:
As someone previously mention, there is munchkin GMing.

How many here rolled up a subsector and fudged the results?

I remember doing subsectors with almost all of the worlds had at least type B starports, most tech levels were based on roll of 5 or 6, and most worlds were industrial or rich.

Of course this lended to an average tech of 14 and the highest being 16 or 17.

I fudge world rolls all the time. Though I usually try for moderate levels of tech (between 9 and C instead of the usual spread) I wouldn't call that munchkin behavior though. It's just a tool you have to create the kind of adventure backdrop you like.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

We used to call the Ref fudging roles as 'lead thumbs'

Frankly I've done it all the time.

I was a suscriber to the WEG 'cinematic school' long before I ran into WEG Star Wars (BTW d20 star wars allowed me to reincaranate one of my favourite WEG characters and have nearly identical kinds of fun with him. Despite a totally different Ref , a radically different player group and a separation in RL time of over ten years)

I'm quite willing to cheat both for and against the player Characters in order to keep things fun and exciting.

Some people think of the Ref as an adversary. I think it's the D&D tradition. Me... I' think I'm more of a... Fun Facillitator.(sp?)