Multiple hits with Autofire
- Thread starter ChalkLine
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navywarlord
SOC-9
IMTU the target receives an additional hit for every 3 points the die roll is over the required "to hit" number...
I will look at my references to see if there is something listed somewhere about this
I will look at my references to see if there is something listed somewhere about this
Technically not. Rules-wise, the only benefit of Autofire in MT was being able to hit several targets. But seeing this as silly, I allowed for two attacks just as you described.
STRIKER's autofire bonus is still the better mechanic though, IMHO. You could use the number of AF targets as per MT as a flat +DM for the primary target.
so you could hit one target once or 3 targets once, given a line of fire zone.
that is a little strange.
I was re-reading my GURPS Basic last night on auto-fire, which allows damage on each bullet in a burst, roll first to see how many bullets in each 4-round burst hits. This depends on how good the "to-hit" roll was. If more than 4 rounds, then break it down into multiples of 4, etc.
You can also attack multiple targets within a 30-degree zone of fire.
Them's the rules.
Wouldn't work well with MT, since in MT the Margin of success on the to-hit roll determines damage.
Hence, an Autofire bonus a la STRIKER would mesh with the system very well - as it would increase both hit probability and average damage.
ISTR that there is a section in Don's errata that covers this - basically you look at targets in the same range band and in the line of fire/adjacent. The extra autofire attacks are then allocated to the extra targets along the line of fire, and then to adjacent targets. You can also allocate autofire targets to the main target - so with an SMG having (I think) 3 autofire targets, you could hit the main target 4 times...(I assume that you roll to hit for each one)
Mark
Mark
An underlying issue behind autofire hitting many targets in an area once or hitting one target many times is the ability to control the weapon.
If a full auto weapon is impossible to aim accurately with subsequent shots then you are not shooting at a target as much as spraying an area around a target. In this case it makes sense to "hit one target once or 3 targets once". It would function like a shotgun with a very broad spread of ammo and only 1 pellet actually hitting any specific target within that area (unless you are shooting at a VERY large target).
For three round burst weapons, the goal seems to be to hit one target multiple times. That does not appear to be the goal of a 'Tommy Gun' emptying a 50 round drum.
Just some thoughts.
If a full auto weapon is impossible to aim accurately with subsequent shots then you are not shooting at a target as much as spraying an area around a target. In this case it makes sense to "hit one target once or 3 targets once". It would function like a shotgun with a very broad spread of ammo and only 1 pellet actually hitting any specific target within that area (unless you are shooting at a VERY large target).
For three round burst weapons, the goal seems to be to hit one target multiple times. That does not appear to be the goal of a 'Tommy Gun' emptying a 50 round drum.
Just some thoughts.
GURPS has a recoil mod to each successive burst or follow-up shot that's added cumulatively to the next and next, etc.
most burst weapons like an SMG are recoil -2, which means -2, -4, -6, -8 for 4 consecutive bursts with your finger never leaving the trigger. In some cases the ROF is very high so you might only get 2 consecutive shots after the first before you're out of ammo.
sorry, I'm not trying to plug GURPS, just getting back into it after a considerable layoff. it's nice to see what MT and CT offer and contrast them.
GURPS also has other things like an ACC mod for the weapon, so high tech weapons can give you a serious boost to hit something. that's balanced out by range, size & speed as something man-size, moving at a decent clip and being a moderate distance can drop all those mods down.
most burst weapons like an SMG are recoil -2, which means -2, -4, -6, -8 for 4 consecutive bursts with your finger never leaving the trigger. In some cases the ROF is very high so you might only get 2 consecutive shots after the first before you're out of ammo.
sorry, I'm not trying to plug GURPS, just getting back into it after a considerable layoff. it's nice to see what MT and CT offer and contrast them.
GURPS also has other things like an ACC mod for the weapon, so high tech weapons can give you a serious boost to hit something. that's balanced out by range, size & speed as something man-size, moving at a decent clip and being a moderate distance can drop all those mods down.
AZHANTI HIGH LIGHTNING has rules for covering fire, which is essentially suppressive fire: You designate a line of fire, anything that moves through it gets attacked - perfect for restricting movement.
Since AHL meshes seamlessly with STRIKER (only the pen and armor values are a little different, as is the close combat, but you can just as well use STRIKER rules for both), there you have a decent system.
Aww... I was hoping for something new
This is an old piece of errata -- from Travellers' Digest #12, pages 42-43... But your basic answer is: ONE attack must always be directed at the primary target. Remaining autofire attacks can be aimed at adjacent targets, which CAN still be the primary target. The rules was not meant to be one shot at the primary and the others at other adjacent targets. If you want those shots to all be rolled on the first target, that's perfectly fine. I've highlighted the significant part.
And now, to the errata:
Page 72 and 73, Danger Space, Group Hits and Autofire (clarifications and additions): The following rules more clearly explain danger space, group hits and autofire.
As the referee, when faced with a potentially confusing combination fire attack, you will save yourself a lot of headaches if you always determine a single primary target before you begin resolving hits. Once the single primary target has been identified in a combination attack, it remains the primary target for the entire combination attack. If the firing unit wants a shifting primary target, then he is conducting rapid fire instead.
[highlight]Once the single primary target has been selected, resolve a combination attack by starting with automatic fire hits. Automatic fire weapons give the firing unit additional “bonus attacks”. Roll a “to hit” task on the primary target as normal, then roll an identical “to hit” task for each adjacent target (player’s choice), up to the number of autofire targets possible. The firing unit has considerable freedom when specifying which adjacent targets—the attacking unit may actually apply all of its autofire attacks to the primary target if it wants to, as long as no other potential targets exist along the line of fire in the same range band. In any case, each autofire attack requires its own roll.[/highlight]
The line of fire rule also comes into play here. A good way to use the line of fire rule with autofire is to make the closest target in the line of fire the default primary target, with all other targets in the line of fire becoming adjacent targets. Any leftover autofire attacks (after applying at least one hit roll to each target in the line of fire) can be applied to laterally adjacent targets. In any event, leftover attacks should prefer the primary target for remaining unused attacks.
This leads us to a concept of “preferred target precedence”. A preferred target should take more hits than any other target. The preferred target precedence for autofire is:
This is an old piece of errata -- from Travellers' Digest #12, pages 42-43... But your basic answer is: ONE attack must always be directed at the primary target. Remaining autofire attacks can be aimed at adjacent targets, which CAN still be the primary target. The rules was not meant to be one shot at the primary and the others at other adjacent targets. If you want those shots to all be rolled on the first target, that's perfectly fine. I've highlighted the significant part.
And now, to the errata:
Page 72 and 73, Danger Space, Group Hits and Autofire (clarifications and additions): The following rules more clearly explain danger space, group hits and autofire.
As the referee, when faced with a potentially confusing combination fire attack, you will save yourself a lot of headaches if you always determine a single primary target before you begin resolving hits. Once the single primary target has been identified in a combination attack, it remains the primary target for the entire combination attack. If the firing unit wants a shifting primary target, then he is conducting rapid fire instead.
[highlight]Once the single primary target has been selected, resolve a combination attack by starting with automatic fire hits. Automatic fire weapons give the firing unit additional “bonus attacks”. Roll a “to hit” task on the primary target as normal, then roll an identical “to hit” task for each adjacent target (player’s choice), up to the number of autofire targets possible. The firing unit has considerable freedom when specifying which adjacent targets—the attacking unit may actually apply all of its autofire attacks to the primary target if it wants to, as long as no other potential targets exist along the line of fire in the same range band. In any case, each autofire attack requires its own roll.[/highlight]
The line of fire rule also comes into play here. A good way to use the line of fire rule with autofire is to make the closest target in the line of fire the default primary target, with all other targets in the line of fire becoming adjacent targets. Any leftover autofire attacks (after applying at least one hit roll to each target in the line of fire) can be applied to laterally adjacent targets. In any event, leftover attacks should prefer the primary target for remaining unused attacks.
This leads us to a concept of “preferred target precedence”. A preferred target should take more hits than any other target. The preferred target precedence for autofire is:
- Primary target;
- Targets adjacent to the primary target and in the line of fire;
- Targets adjacent to the primary target and not in the line of fire.
Um, this rule still says that if adjacent targets exist, you have to allocate AF attacks to them, doesn't it?
(And before these errata, it was crystal clear that autofire allowed only one attack against the primary... it was autofire targets, after all, not autofire attacks.)
No....
What is says is: "the attacking unit may actually apply all of its autofire attacks to the primary target if it wants to, as long as no other potential targets exist along the line of fire in the same range band..."
What that says is that YOU CHOOSE all targets, but if in choosing them, another target lies "along the line of fire" and "in the same range band".
So, don't aim autofire attacks at targets with another unit between you and them and in the same range band as your desired target, because that unit in your "line of fire" will get hit first.
It actually makes sense. I'm trying to shoot Paul, who is beating up Mike in melee. If Mike is between Paul and me (in my line of fire), then I'm going to sadly shoot Mike first.
Now, if Mike is actually in the grass between Paul and I, and Paul is farther away, in a different range band, Mike can be in the line of fire all he wants, he doesn't get priority over Paul to get hit, and I can shoot all my autofire attacks at Paul, or two at his adjacent friends and two at him, or whatever.
What is says is: "the attacking unit may actually apply all of its autofire attacks to the primary target if it wants to, as long as no other potential targets exist along the line of fire in the same range band..."
What that says is that YOU CHOOSE all targets, but if in choosing them, another target lies "along the line of fire" and "in the same range band".
So, don't aim autofire attacks at targets with another unit between you and them and in the same range band as your desired target, because that unit in your "line of fire" will get hit first.
It actually makes sense. I'm trying to shoot Paul, who is beating up Mike in melee. If Mike is between Paul and me (in my line of fire), then I'm going to sadly shoot Mike first.
Now, if Mike is actually in the grass between Paul and I, and Paul is farther away, in a different range band, Mike can be in the line of fire all he wants, he doesn't get priority over Paul to get hit, and I can shoot all my autofire attacks at Paul, or two at his adjacent friends and two at him, or whatever.
???
This sentence is missing something, isn't it?
That would make sense, but "line of fire" is defined in the rules as being the squares passed by the line of sight to the target before and after the target, until it hits an obstruction. This way, if there is any target after your primary, you'll have to allocate AF attacks to it.
If your definition - counting only the squares before the intended target as LOF - should be used, it'd make more sense, though.
I don't do MT, but in CT/Striker (from which MT combat is derived in some part) it is the next closest target along the line-of-fire that gets hit first.
Autofire Rules
Dar Folks -
It looks like this thread was bumped recently? [EDIT: forget it, I keep reading people's "Join Date" as the date of posting. The non-bolded white-on-black strap line above each email is NOT obvious...
]
Anyway, not sure if Don's errata contains the diagrams supplied by DGP when they explained the rules. However, they're on my website (link in .sig).
Go to:
==> Tavonni Repair Bays
==> Traveller Q&A
==> Traveller Q&A: Official Answers To Your Questions (Digest 12)
and scroll down to the question, "The treatment of danger space, group hits, and autofire is confusing. The task roll to hit collateral/adjacent targets (or avoid being hit) is not defined in either the group hits or automatic weapons fire rules. - R. I."
This has a pretty full explanation. With pics.
As for covering fire, I have a vague memory of a rule someone suggested:
"When a character states they are covering an area, this takes a round to set up. Once established, if a target moves into that area, the "covering" character is able to make an automatic interrupt and attack the target."
Or something like that.
As for suppressive fire, I think I used the rule that if someone is firing huge numbers of rounds, the NPC's must make morale checks to see if they stay put (pinned down) or try something tricky. You can even enforce this on PC's, if you don't want them to just ignore someone else's supressive autofire.
Dar Folks -
It looks like this thread was bumped recently? [EDIT: forget it, I keep reading people's "Join Date" as the date of posting. The non-bolded white-on-black strap line above each email is NOT obvious...
]Anyway, not sure if Don's errata contains the diagrams supplied by DGP when they explained the rules. However, they're on my website (link in .sig).
Go to:
==> Tavonni Repair Bays
==> Traveller Q&A
==> Traveller Q&A: Official Answers To Your Questions (Digest 12)
and scroll down to the question, "The treatment of danger space, group hits, and autofire is confusing. The task roll to hit collateral/adjacent targets (or avoid being hit) is not defined in either the group hits or automatic weapons fire rules. - R. I."
This has a pretty full explanation. With pics.
As for covering fire, I have a vague memory of a rule someone suggested:
"When a character states they are covering an area, this takes a round to set up. Once established, if a target moves into that area, the "covering" character is able to make an automatic interrupt and attack the target."
Or something like that.
As for suppressive fire, I think I used the rule that if someone is firing huge numbers of rounds, the NPC's must make morale checks to see if they stay put (pinned down) or try something tricky. You can even enforce this on PC's, if you don't want them to just ignore someone else's supressive autofire.
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