• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Mora's Atmosphere

If the cost of purification exceeds Cr1 per liter, it's cheaper to ship it. After all, a D-Ton is the lesser volume of 10 metric tons worth or 14kL... for water, that's 10 metric tons...

If the local water is, or is becoming, dangerously concentrated for the current ecology (possible, see the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee, present issues...), importing at higher cost may in fact make sense.

If there's an ongoing terraforming project, the cost may be higher still.

And 40% water may be very much in shortage if that water is all in one or two shallow basins. If it's 3-4 deep and steep basins, it might be far less short a supply.
 
If the cost of purification exceeds Cr1 per liter, it's cheaper to ship it. After all, a D-Ton is the lesser volume of 10 metric tons worth or 14kL... for water, that's 10 metric tons...
Would the cost of purification exceed Cr1 per liter, though? In any case, it would be cheaper to import from Jokotre than from Mora. But perhaps the Jokotran Theocracy refuses to sell water. That would increase the transportation cost.

You'd require a humongous fleet of carriers to make any significant impression on the water consumption of 20 billion people.

If the local water is, or is becoming, dangerously concentrated for the current ecology (possible, see the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee, present issues...), importing at higher cost may in fact make sense.
For an entire world? Well, maybe. Fornice is a fairly small world (Unusually small for its atmosphere, in fact).

And 40% water may be very much in shortage if that water is all in one or two shallow basins. If it's 3-4 deep and steep basins, it might be far less short a supply.
But water isn't actually eliminated from the eco-system when drunk by people. And I still wonder if it can really be less feasible to recycle local water than to import it.

It's not something I have a strong opinion about. It just seems unlikely to me, but I admit that's merely a gut feeling.


Hans
 
It's a bit over 10 billion, actually. The 32 billion in BtC is an error. Mora's population multiplier in 1111 is 1, not 3.

"Mora’s population of over ten billion mostly live in huge selfcontained arcologies, about one-eleventh of which are built on dry land on to the continent of Batadis and the various islands, though most of the available arable land surface is dedicated to intensive agriculture. The remainder are spread across the sea floor, mainly in the equatorial regions and often have seabed farms around them. Arcologies may be home to tens or even hundreds of millions of inhabitants. Around 300 million people live in space habitats spread out across the star system."​
[Of Dustspice and Dewclaws, p. 4.]​

More to the point, though, is that TL14 allows huge arcologies and arcologies allow you to really use the third dimension to get some serious living space. One such arcology is described in Of Dustspice and Dewclaws. Fenrock houses a mere 33 million people, yet it spreads 2 by 3 kilometers and is up to 750 meters in height, which translates into about 90 levels. Some of those levels are industrial, of course, but there's plenty of residential living space too.

So if we take Fenrock as a typical arcology in more, there are only about 300 such arcologies in the whole Mora... a little less if you account for the people living in space habitats.

If it occupies about 6 square km, only about 1800 square km of th ewhole planet are inhabitated, so there's plenty of room for 'wilderness' (whatever is it on Mora) and agriculture.

Also, crime rates scale with population density; violent crimes and gangs rise proportionally with density and inversely with average income. Average education doesn't seem to factor directly (tho' it does link to average income with a contributory relationship). Also, studies of social interaction show that the same 2D density in a 3D space has about the same social effects as that same density in a 2D space; Areas of Tokyo with a density equal to that of downtown NYC have a similar rate of both crime and social distancing behaviors. (I can't vouch for how they measured social distancing, as I read the paper 4 years ago during my MAEd program; I recall it measured the number of social pleasantries per hour in a given area, but not how counted.)

I'm not sure this is always true. Most European cities are quite crowded, and violent crimes and gangs have not been (at least until now) a big problem in those cities.

Also there are many examples on our history of lightly populated areas with far more problem with those violent crimes and gangs. Medieval Europe had not this overpopulation problem (population density was quite low), and yet there were endemic problems with bandit gangas, and violence was too usual.

Same happened thoughout modern age, with banditry (and piracy on the seas, both violent crimes and gangs) being a real problem for trade and governments.

I don't know US situation nor history as well as I do about Europe, but the far west topic is not one without those violent crimes and gangs, and I guess overcrowding was not the problem there...

So I tink there are more causes to that (lack of government control, either due to technological incapabilities, as middle/modern ages were, inefficiencies, corruption, etc; economic causes, etc)

It's interesting to note that the densest pre-industrial populations also were among the most socially formal; Byzantium, Feudal Japan, Urban Rome... Even the Imperial City of China was said to be socially rigid in form.

The idea of social rigidity in custom is, in point of fact, one of those areas where lots of North Americans find the whole idea of formal interaction abhorrent; US cities, rather than formal interactions, tend towards non-interaction; Japanese tend to fall to rigid forms of limited interaction and "false privacy" (People willfully ignoring individuals until the correct social forms are followed).

The social rules needed where a 1km movement can bring one into contact with 10 million people are far more stringent than those where it can only bring 10,000, and those more so than when it's 500 people. As someone who's lived in range of about 5k, and now am in an area where it's about 2K, the social pleasantries are in fact far more common; it's only 16km distance, but the social environment is VERY different; 3km away, it drops even more, and people are FAR more friendly there.

I agree with you the society must be quite formal and rigid to allow any level of convivence in those overcrowded situation. Sure formality and ettiquete should be very important in such cities.

So I would expect that Fenrock, at 33M on 6km^2 (in 4.5km^2) would be 5M per km^2... 100 times that of Manilla, the most dense on the list on Wikipedia, and 100 times that of Mumbai... would be stiflingly formal. You can run into too many people. I would expect clear social indicators, and clear restrictions on who goes where. Even if not properly uniforms, I would expect clear social class dress modes. All things that make it horrific to me. And, from the corner, you've got 5 million people within a kilometer. Oh, and that's only 136.36 cubic meters per person... INCLUDING industrial space. Assuming a nice 3m ceiling, that's 45m^2 per person, or 6.75x6.75x3m each.

That's pretty damned cramped there, Hans. 22x22 feet each. That's my living room per person, counting work and accessway spaces. Using a general rate from MT, 10% will be LS and power to run it; and half the quarters space will be outside the quarters, that's 20m^2 per person in quarters, and 20m^2 per person in commons, presuming only LS is accounted for; if there's industrial space, it gets MUCH worse.

Well, my family (my wife, out two daughters and myself) live in n appartment of about 65 square metters (so, little more than 15 square metters/person in quarters), and that's not a unusual situation in Barcelona. Of course we have vast amounts of open sky places to go, and that's a lot more in commons, but if the habitability of the planet allows it, I guess people can go to picnic to wilderness with thier grav cars as people does in our time with their ground cars.

After all, as I told at the begining of the post, there could be vasta amounts of wilderness in Mora, and even if you must protect yourself from harmful effects of tainted atmosphere (if native people is not adapted to it, which, depending on the exact taint, may well happen), you needn't to stay always in the enclosure of the arcology.

Even though, it's posible that due to cultural factors, and being used to live in the arcologies, people in Mora (and most arcology living planets) have developed a 'cultural agoraphobia', and the idea of such a picnic (even if the atmosphere is more pleasant) is seen as silly for them, or even as a sign of mental unstability.

EDIT: BTW, Aramis, just for if you have not notticed it, your post I quote is duplicated. Perhaps you could fix that, if you think it is in order to do it END EDIT
 
Last edited:
If we assume a 1:3.5 worker:non-worker ratio (couple + 2.5 kids), .

I find this ratio a little generous (just my opinion).

Spain (I'll put as example the country I know the most, if you allow me) has a census (2010) of about 48 million inhabitants. Extrapolating form the unemployment numbers/percentage of active population the Goverment gives, Spain's workforce is about 20 million people, so our ratio is more about 1:2.5 than 1:3.5. And that is with a large elder population (you work until 65, and live spectative is about 78/85 (M/F)), but also a very low birthrate (IIRC 1.5-1.8 children/fertile female), and so low children/adult ratio.

I guess with such TL life expectancy would be longer, but working age will too, and birth rate quite low (so the 2.5 children/couple may be overstated, IMO). I also believe most couple would have both members working. So, if we assume 2 children/couple, and both adults working, ratio would be a 1:2-1:2.5 (accounting for elderly, handicapped and other people not in the workforce).
 
It's interesting to note that the densest pre-industrial populations also were among the most socially formal; Byzantium, Feudal Japan, Urban Rome... Even the Imperial City of China was said to be socially rigid in form.

The idea of social rigidity in custom is, in point of fact, one of those areas where lots of North Americans find the whole idea of formal interaction abhorrent; US cities, rather than formal interactions, tend towards non-interaction; Japanese tend to fall to rigid forms of limited interaction and "false privacy" (People willfully ignoring individuals until the correct social forms are followed).

This is just beautiful, it dovetails very nicely with the Neo-Victorian/Steampunkish vibe of my TU, like in my Lt Kodolitz picture. Steampunk is also popular right now, one reason I suggested a Dickensian Mora. The class stratification of the Imperium happens as a cultural out growth of the interior high pop Imperial worlds, but in many ways is an ill fit for the frontier. Social friction is a good story element.
 
I find this ratio a little generous (just my opinion).

Spain (I'll put as example the country I know the most, if you allow me) has a census (2010) of about 48 million inhabitants. Extrapolating form the unemployment numbers/percentage of active population the Goverment gives, Spain's workforce is about 20 million people, so our ratio is more about 1:2.5 than 1:3.5. And that is with a large elder population (you work until 65, and live spectative is about 78/85 (M/F)), but also a very low birthrate (IIRC 1.5-1.8 children/fertile female), and so low children/adult ratio.

I guess with such TL life expectancy would be longer, but working age will too, and birth rate quite low (so the 2.5 children/couple may be overstated, IMO). I also believe most couple would have both members working. So, if we assume 2 children/couple, and both adults working, ratio would be a 1:2-1:2.5 (accounting for elderly, handicapped and other people not in the workforce).

The 1:3.5 is a reasonable single-provider family in modern societies. It's high for Europe, where population growth is mostly by immigration, and families generally are averaging about 1.7 children per couple (not even replacement levels), but rather low for non-industrial nations.

But at much less than 1:3, the arcology isn't as crew-efficient as a starship, as one runs out of volume just on workspaces.
 
don't know US situation nor history as well as I do about Europe, but the far west topic is not one without those violent crimes and gangs, and I guess overcrowding was not the problem there...

Gangs (criminal) in the US have been a constant thing since the nation was founded. The openess of society, a legal system that favors innocense and, freedom of movement makes for a good combination for them to thrive. The general anominity of larger urban areas, in the sense that individuals do not readily interact with their immediate neighbors, makes it even easier to carry out criminal actions.

There are several levels of gang as well. Street gangs made up primarily of poorly educated and poorer persons. Overwhelmingly these are male in make up. They produce mostly serious but petty crime and interact with other street gangs. Current examples might include Bloods, Crips, People, Folk, Soldiers of Aryan Culture, Wetback Power etc. These are local to a particular area even if subsets can be found over a wide range. Usually any particular "set" will only have a dozen or so core members and maybe twice that in want-to-bes.

Organized gangs and prison gangs. These are more dangerous in that their members are lifetime volunteers who have a long history of criminal activity. These would be groups like the Hell's Angels, MS 13, or Mexican Mafia. They recruit heavily from street gangs and often use those as their muscle of carrying out many activities. These gangs are orgainzed over whole nations and may be multi-national. They have hundreds of core members, membership is difficult to obtain and, have thousands of want-to-bes among street gangs.

Professional syndicates and families. The Mafia (Russian or Italian), drug cartels and, the like. These groups are primarily interested in making money through criminal activity. They care little for protecting a particular segiment or area of operations so long as their activities are not messed with. They will interact with more criminial gangs in order to further their money making operations. These are typically multi-national and have hundreds of members with hundreds or thousands of associated persons acting in some limited capacity for the core.

Most of the non-street gang criminal societies / groups will have some degree of affiliation and often arrangements with other similar groups. Alliances and enemies are well defined in most cases and members generally will not act on their own but only under orders from their leadership.

I have one character I sometimes use that was developed as a high-end rogue (eg., professional criminal in a syndicate (clan in this case)). One interesting idea I used with this character is that of having embedded high tech 'markers' like a sort of set of tattoos that only the wearer can activate by some combination of touch, device etc., making accidental or law enforcement activation nearly or totally impossible but allows them to readily identify themselves to other professional criminals and establish their 'credentials' within that world if you will. This follows current use of tattoos within the orgainzed crime world to do the same here in the present day.

If you wish to use gangs that is a decent introduction.
 
The 1:3.5 is a reasonable single-provider family in modern societies. It's high for Europe, where population growth is mostly by immigration, and families generally are averaging about 1.7 children per couple (not even replacement levels), but rather low for non-industrial nations.
Other factors apply as well, although they boil down to one figure: How big a percentage of his life does the average member of society work? A society where everyone work 12/24, seven days a week from they turn 14 till they're physically unfit to continue work is going to have a different ratio than one where people work 8/24, five days a week from they're 22 till they're 60 with a month's holiday every year, and some people don't work at all. In any case it's a factor that can vary tremendously from society to society.

The figure from WTH, 1:3 (which means one out of every four, not one out of three), is for developing colonies, and one might speculate that the colonists are working harder than the average member of an established high-tech society.


Hans
 
The 1:3.5 is a reasonable single-provider family in modern societies. It's high for Europe, where population growth is mostly by immigration, and families generally are averaging about 1.7 children per couple (not even replacement levels), but rather low for non-industrial nations.

But at much less than 1:3, the arcology isn't as crew-efficient as a starship, as one runs out of volume just on workspaces.

As you say, 1:3.5 ratio is for a single provider family, I think this will be more the exception than the rule. Even in poor, non industrial nations, most families are not single provider, even if one of them (usually the women) are not counted as provider, as they do mostly unpaid work (not only at home, but farm caring and low level agriculture, mostly for own consume, that is mostly unpaid, and so not counted as provider).

You're also right in saying that the 1.7 children per couple is quite low for non-industrial societies, but I guess those societies won't build arcologies, so I think is not too low for Mora's arcologies. I leep thinking 1:3.5 is a rather generouns ratio for an advanced, industrial society.
 
The general anominity of larger urban areas, in the sense that individuals do not readily interact with their immediate neighbors, makes it even easier to carry out criminal actions.

True, but also the greater governmental control over those cities makes it more dificult to engage in violent criminal actions... I guess all the factors put the balance level at the end.

I wonder (I have no figueres, so genuine wander here) if the percentage of people involved in gangs and violent crime is really higher in urban areas.

Of course there will be more of them in those areas, as the population density is quite higher, but in percentage, I feel we'll find the population involved is less than in other areas with less goverment control, even if it goes less noticed (just a feeling, no hard (nor light, fot what is worth) evience here).
 
In general, the two-provider nuclear family home is an abonormality.

Most societies don't do nuclear families - and many industrial societies are starting to move away from them as well.

Amongst my friends, the norm is 2 kids, 1.5FTE working adults, and 1.5 FTE non-working adults. Yes, 3 adults and 2 kids... sometimes adult 3 is grandparent, sometimes roommate. Adult two seems as often to be grandparent as parent, tho sometimes friend.

Hell, my wife and I were married 7 years before we had a place to our nuclear family. At one point, it was 5 adults, 2.7 FTE... (Wife and I, Ben, Charles, and Rich.) None of us able to find full time jobs. Employers hiring for 29 hours a week to avoid the insurance mandate at 30.

Looking at employment rates for the UK, 55-75%... 2-3:1::W:NW... in the 16 to 64 age range.

if we assume a typical 20 year generation cycle, that's two generations. half the emplyed are likely parents.
If we assume a replacement rate of 2 children per couple...
And 1.5 generations worth of retirees (gets us to 90's)

5:2 base in two gens. (Splitting it between 3:1=6:2 and 2:1=4:2)
+0:2 replacement children of younger gen.
+0:2 Retirees over 65
Gives us 5:6 of an overall population (Tho one could argue that retirees should be +0.5:+1.5 easily)

At the 35Td(=490kL) per worker rate of starship drives, 33M people would support 7.35 cubic kilometers of workspace... 1.5x what the arcology in question provides. In short, it's unlikely to be tech efficient at that scale.

So, instead working out the other direction, if employment rate is similar to the UK...
using the previously figured 2Td(=28kL) per person living space...
and the 5:6 working:non ratio derived from the UK on the 33M people in 4.5CuKM...
that's 240.6kL per worker, or just over 17Td each.

that's about half as efficient as starship drive crews. I really have a hard time seeing arcologies being that dense, tho'.

Working out the ratio for the US, with a current generation age closer to 25 and a lot of retirees:
3:1 base age 20+ workers, including retirees; 3 generations included
+0:1 replacement in children
=3:2=1.5:1 (versus my estimate of 1.1:1 for the UK...)

Russia has much "better" data available... 92% employment, and splits by age in the ranges 15-72.
12:1 base but....

11:1 in breeding age
+13:1 in older generations
+0.1:10.9 in children generation (as 1% of under 20 are working)
24.1:12.9 or roughly 1.5:1
 
Last edited:
True, but also the greater governmental control over those cities makes it more dificult to engage in violent criminal actions... I guess all the factors put the balance level at the end.

Actually, it makes doing crime easier. People don't know the perpertrator most of the time. That makes identification harder.
The police are fewer in number compared to the populace and generally are less concerned with individual cases, particularly more petty ones. The amount of crime per capita is much lower generally in small towns than large metropolios'. In fact, goverment bureaucracy, overworked cops and, public indifference to most crime (where it isn't personal) will result in the sort of thing like you report some crime, let's say burglary. The police respond after two or three hours, take a report and, then tell you to file an insurance claim.
In more rural areas or ones where self-defense is permitted it is likely that personal crime will fall simply due to the threat of retaliation on the spot by the victim.
Just remember: When every second counts the police are only minutes away.... Or, as it often says on their patrol cars: To Serve and Protect (the government).... they always leave those last two words off..... :confused:

I wonder (I have no figueres, so genuine wander here) if the percentage of people involved in gangs and violent crime is really higher in urban areas.

Gangs make up just a few percent at most of the population. And, yes violent crime is higher in dense urban areas and in particular areas that have very strict laws against possession of weapons, against self-defense and, the like.
Now, that said, there is a seperate issue of society itself and society's expectations and social norms. This alters the ratio dependent on the interaction and interconnection of society's members. The tighter knit the community generally the lower the crime is.

Of course there will be more of them in those areas, as the population density is quite higher, but in percentage, I feel we'll find the population involved is less than in other areas with less goverment control, even if it goes less noticed (just a feeling, no hard (nor light, fot what is worth) evience here).

If you look at violent crime by nation and then at crime within a nation urban areas generally rank highest in incidents per 100, 1000 etc. In the US where there are varying degrees of laws governing self-defense, gun ownership etc., the highest crime cities are generally those with the most onerous laws against the public acting on their own.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

http://www.bestplaces.net/docs/studies/crime3.aspx
 
And, yes violent crime is higher in dense urban areas and in particular areas that have very strict laws against possession of weapons, against self-defense and, the like.

If so, Barcelona (my city) would be quite violent... Laws in Spain are quite restrictive in weapons possesion, and self-defense is very rare to be accepted before a trial.

And even so, truly violent crime is rare (not as much as it have been some years ago, I'm affraid). I work as nurse in an emergency room (a specialized one, where means that violence crimes would be rare there even should those crimes were not), and I know very few doctors/nurses with any experience in firearms wounds, and only a little more in mele weapons wounds, and most of those I know are form other countries (mostly Latin American).

Of course we have some gang and band problem, but it's quite new. We had such problems in the late 70's/early 80's, in an economic regression (as today) and quite related to drug using (more than dealing), and they seem to reapear now (also in economig difficulties, and less related to drugs).

Most violent burglary problem seems to be in rural areas, with less population density and longer response time by the police.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top