Modifying surplus ships.

[spank]

Reading Traders and Gunboats, the Seeker sticks out to me. It is modified from a "surplus" Scout. I like the concept, but can't make the numbers work, The description say the surplus Scout cost 17 MCr, and it costs 7.59MCR for the modifications. But the only number I can nail down is the Pulse Laser at 0.5 MCr. Beyond that there is removal of 8 Dtons of stateroom, and 20 Dtons of fuel tank, and the swap of the Air Raft for a Buggy. I have no idea how they are pricing any of that. In the end the price should be 24.59 MCr, but I come up about 7 MCr short.

 

[Rupert]

Depreciation on hull and plant, I assume.

 

[RossWinn]

I never tried to make the numbers "work". Since most of the times these ships were in-game they were a mustering out benefit. More importantly the value is based on the new construction price and depreciation. I have always assumed that reconfiguring a ship as relatively simple in dry dock and about a 0.25MCr per ton. Of course, it's your Traveller Universe.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I like the concept, but can't make the numbers work, The description say the surplus Scout cost 17 MCr, and it costs 7.59MCR for the modifications.

First, take the "new build" stock version of the Type-S.
Depreciation is -1% to that base price per year the hull has been around ... so after 40 years, it's (100-40)=60% of the original purchase price in value.

For the modifications, those are kind of weird ... and not just because there is insufficient detail provided to be able to reverse engineer what's going on.

LBB2.81 has rules for "sell back to upgrade" that are a bit hard to find, but it basically amounts to anything you're stripping out being worth 25% of its base construction cost, and the replacement being priced at 100%.

The Prospecting Buggy actually winds up being detailed in CT Beltstrike as a 4 ton, Cr0.75 vehicle that is substantially similar to an air/raft modified for mining operations in potentially hazardous environments (hence the +25% price increase relative to a standard air/raft).

 

[Grav_Moped]

For reference:

Refitting rules in TCS, p. 34:
Major (Drive swaps): 1.5 x cost of the new drives, 1/4 the time needed to build the ship from scratch.

Minor (everything else); 1.1 x cost of new fittings, 1/10 of original ship build time.

 

[Grav_Moped]

For reference:

Refitting rules in TCS, p. 34:
Major (Drive swaps): 1.5 x cost of the new drives, 1/4 the time needed to build the ship from scratch.

Minor (everything else); 1.1 x cost of new fittings, 1/10 of original ship build time.

And TCS is weird about drive swaps. Basically, you can only downgrade drives unless you're doing a TL upgrade on the power plant. But, you can shrink the drive bay! (Swapping LBB5 drives in for LBB2 drives, if each drive separately is smaller, is ok.) LBB2 lets you do whatever you want (J3/1G -> J2/2G if it fits, for example) but you can't change the drive bay size and any of that that's unused is wasted.

 

[spank]

Well, off the shelf ships are OK for jumping in and starting quickly. But the alternative is to scratch build, which isn't bad. But, if you know how a particular ship was priced out you can modify from that base. For instance if you want something bigger than a Free Trader you option is a Subsidized Merchant, but A couple major flaws,

• The C/C/C drives are oversized (and add alot of cost)
• The Launch adds alot of cost and eats up cargo space.

If you know how the numbers work you can go back to the build sheet and remove the launch and reduce the drives, and end up with a ship that's 25 MCr Cheaper with 20 DTons more cargo space.


Of course you could do it without knowing exactly how the number work, and the results would be pretty close. But I prefer knowing how the numbers were derived.

I never tried to make the numbers "work". Since most of the times these ships were in-game they were a mustering out benefit. More importantly the value is based on the new construction price and depreciation. I have always assumed that reconfiguring a ship as relatively simple in dry dock and about a 0.25MCr per ton. Of course, it's your Traveller Universe.

 

[spank]

That's awesome, I couldn't find the buggy for the life of me.
I'll have to go through TCS, I had no idea those rule were there.

LBB2.81 has rules for "sell back to upgrade" that are a bit hard to find, but it basically amounts to anything you're stripping out being worth 25% of its base construction cost, and the replacement being priced at 100%.

The Prospecting Buggy actually winds up being detailed in CT Beltstrike as a 4 ton, Cr0.75 vehicle that is substantially similar to an air/raft modified for mining operations in potentially hazardous environments (hence the +25% price increase relative to a standard air/raft).

For reference:

Refitting rules in TCS, p. 34:
Major (Drive swaps): 1.5 x cost of the new drives, 1/4 the time needed to build the ship from scratch.

Minor (everything else); 1.1 x cost of new fittings, 1/10 of original ship build time.

And TCS is weird about drive swaps. Basically, you can only downgrade drives unless you're doing a TL upgrade on the power plant. But, you can shrink the drive bay! (Swapping LBB5 drives in for LBB2 drives, if each drive separately is smaller, is ok.) LBB2 lets you do whatever you want (J3/1G -> J2/2G if it fits, for example) but you can't change the drive bay size and any of that that's unused is wasted.

 

[Grav_Moped]

A couple major flaws,

• The C/C/C drives are oversized (and add alot of cost)

Left over from first edition, where they were actually required for J1/1G. Oversized in the second edition due to changes in the Drive Performance Table.

• The Launch adds alot of cost and eats up cargo space.

Narrative element, included to enable RPG scenarios involving a "lifeboat" for the ship, not functionally necessary.

 

[spank]

So theoretically you've got:

• Surplus Scout 29.43 MCr, discounted 40% --> 17.658
• Remove 4 state rooms 2.2 MCr
• Add 4 Double occupancy staterooms 1.1 MCr
• Swap Air Raft for Buggy +0.15 MCr
• Pulse laser +0.5 MCr
• Remove fuel tanks/hull space/instuments ????

That gives 21.608 MCr which is 2.982 MCr under the quoted cost.
You could add a 10% fee for ????? {10% of base ship cost} and 1% architect's fee,
Which would get you to 24.79651 MCr, Which is close to the final cost, But I'm not happy with the 10% fee, It's just a cost I pulled out of my hat to justify raising the cost.

 

[Rupert]

And TCS is weird about drive swaps. Basically, you can only downgrade drives unless you're doing a TL upgrade on the power plant. But, you can shrink the drive bay! (Swapping LBB5 drives in for LBB2 drives, if each drive separately is smaller, is ok.) LBB2 lets you do whatever you want (J3/1G -> J2/2G if it fits, for example) but you can't change the drive bay size and any of that that's unused is wasted.

LBB5 doesn't really have separate hull sections, so you can fit whatever you want however you want.

 

[spank]

LBB5 doesn't really have separate hull sections, so you can fit whatever you want however you want.

LBB5 lets you use LBB2 drives, but it doesn't mention LBB2 hulls. So it seems like you need to use LBB5 Hulls, with the attendant higher cost. And the Book 2 drive have to use Book 2 fuel formula, which is 10Pn Vs 1 Pn for LBB5, so you get a decided advantage space-wise using LBB5 drives, However the cost is higher. But OTOH you get a 20% discount on the final design instead of a 10% in LBB2, so that helps.

 

[spank]

The Launch adds alot of cost and eats up cargo space.
Narrative element, included to enable RPG scenarios involving a "lifeboat" for the ship, not functionally necessary.

I can certainly see ships requiring a lifeboat for passengers, But the cost of the Launch is quite high for what it is. A LBB5 designed launch would be about half the cost. And you could make it a good bit smaller, maybe half the size.

 

[Grav_Moped]

LBB5 doesn't really have separate hull sections, so you can fit whatever you want however you want.

TCS is pretty clear that you can't replace/refit a drive (Jump, Maneuver, or Power Plant) with a larger one of that type. Which means only the power plant can be an upgrade because only those improve at higher TL. Or, swap in a better LBB5 drive for a LBB2 one.

Individual drives can be replaced by smaller ones (such as downgrading J2 to J1) and the space saved thereby can be repurposed for anything one wants.

LBB5 lets you use LBB2 drives, but it doesn't mention LBB2 hulls. So it seems like you need to use LBB5 Hulls, with the attendant higher cost. And the Book 2 drive have to use Book 2 fuel formula, which is 10Pn Vs 1 Pn for LBB5, so you get a decided advantage space-wise using LBB5 drives, However the cost is higher. But OTOH you get a 20% discount on the final design instead of a 10% in LBB2, so that helps.

In theory, you can build a standard-hull LBB2 ship without drives, and then "retrofit" LBB5 drives into it during the construction process. Spendy, though.

Configuration 4 (flattened sphere) is your budget-minded friend here if you want streamlining.

Or just house-rule that you can put LBB5 drives into LBB2 standard hulls. This can get you a Type S with J3/2G at TL-13 (TL-13 is required for the power plant that will fit into the 100Td Standard Hull's drive bay; J3 itself is only TL-12).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Reading Traders and Gunboats, the Seeker sticks out to me. It is modified from a "surplus" Scout. I like the concept, but can't make the numbers work, The description say the surplus Scout cost 17 MCr, and it costs 7.59MCR for the modifications. But the only number I can nail down is the Pulse Laser at 0.5 MCr. Beyond that there is removal of 8 Dtons of stateroom, and 20 Dtons of fuel tank, and the swap of the Air Raft for a Buggy. I have no idea how they are pricing any of that. In the end the price should be 24.59 MCr, but I come up about 7 MCr short.

They pulled the numbers out of thin air...

Also note that they turned 8 Dt staterooms into 10 Dt cargo bay...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

• The C/C/C drives are oversized (and add alot of cost)
• The Launch adds alot of cost and eats up cargo space.

C drives were necessary in LBB2'77, the ship is just unchanged.

The launch is a simple way of making the ship unprofitable, so you have to go on adventures...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Of course you could do it without knowing exactly how the number work, and the results would be pretty close. But I prefer knowing how the numbers were derived.

The cost is just wrong...

Consolidated CT Eratta, p8, LBB2'81:
Page 19, Subsidized Liner (type M) (correction and omission): Missing notation that this design uses a standard hull. There are 2 tons reserved for drive upgrades, and the correct cost should be MCr245.97 (after discount).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

LBB5 lets you use LBB2 drives, but it doesn't mention LBB2 hulls. So it seems like you need to use LBB5 Hulls, with the attendant higher cost.

LBB5 ships can be quite cheap with a higher standard discount (20% sv 10% in LBB2).

Apart from the small very cheap LBB2 standard hulls, LBB5 hulls can be cheaper with the right configuration...

For example a streamlined (flattened sphere) 600 Dt LBB5 hull is MCr 48, a standard LBB2 hull is MCr 54, and a custom LBB2 hull is MCr 66. After standard design discount that is MCr 38.4, MCr 48.6, and MCr 59.4 respectively.

 

[spank]

The cost is just wrong...

That comes down to undercharging for the launch, it seems the launch was priced at 4 MCr for the '81 version, when it should have been 14 MCr.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That comes down to undercharging for the launch, it seems the launch was priced at 4 MCr for the '81 version, when it should have been 14 MCr.

Sure, or MCr 10 anywhere else, before standard design discount...