• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

Missing Tech in OTU

Popular Science & Mechanics (among many other common pubs) covered this type of stuff VERY often. The mil was constantly blowing its own horn also. Air War board game (TSR?) came out in '77 and had very good spec info on MANY modern fighters.

Face it, it was written the way it was because the authors weren't science oriented. The data was VERY public as to general specs.

In another thread, HB and a few others were discussing what real world technology was missing from the Traveller tech charts. I've seen this mentioned in various threads, but not always with any detail.

So here's the topic...

What real world technologies do you think are missing from the Traveller Universe Techbase? (Provide web links to examples if possible, help educate your fellow Travellers ;) )

What tech level do you think these items should be placed at if they were included?

Are there any technologies currently included in the tech charts that you think should be removed or adjusted? If so please explain your reasons.
 
A baseline for nanotechnology.

There are many OTU techs that could be considered nanotechnology, even though it is not specifically mentioned (a.i. higher healing technologies being derived from nanotechnology even though it is not stated so). It would be nice to add something like "Basic Nanotechnology TL 12" and "Advanced Nanotechnology" TL 16 to the charts. This way we would know which technologies possibly include some nanotech (those TL 12+ in this example) and which don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotechnology

 
I'd do a fairly radical overhaul of the tech tree for Traveller since most of the tech progression is refinement rather than invention.

TL7 should be where we are at now.

TL8 fusion power and gravitics.

TL9 jump drive, nuclear damper tech

TL10 antimatter power plants, meson weapons/screens

TL11 controlled misjump drives, forcefields

TL12+ magic
 
We use nanotech now, at TL7 :)

Technically, making cheese and yogurt involves TL 0 nanotech, but I don't think that is the current sci-fi trope envisioned by the term 'nanotech'.

They want Drexler's Assemblers and nanobots and grey goo.
 
A baseline for nanotechnology.

There are many OTU techs that could be considered nanotechnology, even though it is not specifically mentioned (a.i. higher healing technologies being derived from nanotechnology even though it is not stated so). It would be nice to add something like "Basic Nanotechnology TL 12" and "Advanced Nanotechnology" TL 16 to the charts. This way we would know which technologies possibly include some nanotech (those TL 12+ in this example) and which don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotechnology


It's still not clear IF Nanotech as SciFi describes it will ever work. And even less clear that it will work outside massive plants. Since working field-deployable NT has a lot of implications that basically kill a lot of Traveller I would keep it as "It's used to produce x somewhere in a huge factory" if introducing it at all.
 
Technically, making cheese and yogurt involves TL 0 nanotech, but I don't think that is the current sci-fi trope envisioned by the term 'nanotech'.

They want Drexler's Assemblers and nanobots and grey goo.
Unfortunately they are science fantasy - they won't work due to a little thing called thermodynamics.
 
Unfortunately they are science fantasy - they won't work due to a little thing called thermodynamics.

Since when did Traveller have to be ruled by science? Jump drive anyone? Lots of stuff is pure speculation and even then there is no true science behind it. Lots of Traveller tech already on the charts could be argued to be, "science fantasy".

Nanotechnology is a large area of speculation in SciFi, it would thus be nice to have it included in a semi-generic scifi rules system called Traveller. Even if you put, "Advanced Nanotechnology" (a.i. grey goo, swarms) at the "magic" TL's (somewhere beyond 15), it would still be nice to mention when very basic nanotechnology catches hold. No I don't mean yogurt, I mean scifi nanotechnology. "Basic Nanotechnology" at a lower TL could mean rudimentary stuff; the technology behind some of the Traveller tech we have already seen.

For example, TL 12 Basic Nanotech could be behind medical advances, early terraforming, other Traveller technologies whose TL is already stated, but never explained. TL 16+ Advanced Nanotech could be what allows advanced terraforming, "magic" medical technologies, and instant matter transport.
 
I have always used the justification that TLs are hangovers from the Vilani Imperium in which civilization was evenly spread at TL C.5 for all Vilani settlements/arcologies, TL A to A.5 for those races that Vilani bootstrapped to share in glorious empire, minor races - forcibly reduced to be no greater than A and prison planets reduced to 5 or less. This way the curve of technologies makes sense IMTU.

I am less worried when technologies are said to appear as the overall availability of said technology on any given planet in the OTU - so TL just becomes a multiplier on price and maintenance. For I remember in Communist Czechoslovakia when I was there in the 1980s - one could get a VCR or electric shaver but imported and hence very much at premium price - similarly, one could find people who would juryrig repairs from lower TL equipment because they had the theoretical understanding how something worked - but it still did not mean the large part of the population would not have access to it...and for me travelling across Prague to several different workshops to scavenge for parts.
 
Maybe it would be helpful if some specific examples of nanotech were given. That is, give some examples of specific applications and various tech levels.

I think if nanotech were ever officially incorporated into Traveller, the first challenge would be explaining exactly what it is in terms the average person can wrap their head around. For most people when you say nanotech they think "grey goo" or possibly Replicators from SG-1. Giving specific examples of applications would probably go a long way to helping frame what nanotech is, what it can do and just as importantly what it can't do.
 
Maybe it would be helpful if some specific examples of nanotech were given. That is, give some examples of specific applications and various tech levels.

I think if nanotech were ever officially incorporated into Traveller, the first challenge would be explaining exactly what it is in terms the average person can wrap their head around. For most people when you say nanotech they think "grey goo" or possibly Replicators from SG-1. Giving specific examples of applications would probably go a long way to helping frame what nanotech is, what it can do and just as importantly what it can't do.

When most people use the term "nanotech", they mean "very tiny self-replicating machines able to manipulate matter at the molecular or atomic level". That would indeed, if it was used widely in the TU, change the whole premise of the universe.

A less sophisticated form of "quasi-nanotech" could I think be quite widespread in Traveller without breaking its premises. This could for example be programmed to perform surgery and such at a cellular level (thus for example eradicating a tumor cell by cell) or search for and fix microscopic or smaller damage in machinery or materials before it can get bigger and become dangerous. Or they could be programmed to do damage, to be used as poision to assassinate a target, or to sabotage machinery.

I think the most important distinctions for nanotech to be feasible for introduction to Traveller would be, firstly that it can only operate at a level notably above the atomic and molecular, and secondly that it cannot self-replicate or only do so within very tight limits.
 
a techology i think is missing form traveller?

integrated networking.

It may well be their in the background, but networking between ships in combat would have quite a serious effect on tactics. using Interferometry techniques, you could gain an effective sensor apature with a diamiter of thousands of KM. that would give you pin point targetting info for things like Meson guns. it would make Picket screens significantly more effective, as it would give them access to very high resolution sensors.

Also, cyberwarfare could be a killer against ships of the same tech base (by which i mean, ships built by the same "culture", like other imperial vessels). remote hacking to shut down fire control, manuvering ect could be a usful tool for police work (as they could disable a uncooperative trader without damaging his ship). it wouldn't work so well against ships form another tech base (like Zhodani or Aslan ships), but it would still be a neat trick when it works.


something that very agianst the sprit of traveller, but would be a cool trick, would be exploiting the Quantum Engtanglement effect for a limited form of FTL comms. I was thinking along the lines of a "beacon" set up that worked on a "if you get a signal form us, we've been invaded" basis.

I think the most important distinctions for nanotech to be feasible for introduction to Traveller would be, firstly that it can only operate at a level notably above the atomic and molecular, and secondly that it cannot self-replicate or only do so within very tight limits.

I feel obliged to note that nanoscopic, self repicating objects with no objective other than making more of themselves already exist. thier called Viruses, and while nasty, have not wiped out all life on earth.
 
Last edited:
When most people use the term "nanotech", they mean "very tiny self-replicating machines able to manipulate matter at the molecular or atomic level". That would indeed, if it was used widely in the TU, change the whole premise of the universe.

Depending on what level you place it at. If you make early nanotech be very crude, non-self replicating, it could be used purely as the means behind some of the technology Traveller already uses. If you leave the self-replicating do anything swarms to beyond TL 15, then it fits in with some of the godlike technologies at the upper ends.

Example: TL 12 early nanotech behind the TL 12 technology of early terraforming. Terraforming nanites can, very slowly, over a small area, begin to terraform. It is a very slow process taking years to complete even on a local level. Nanites are at this point still created at a factory, non-self replicating.

Example: TL 15 advanced nanotech is behind the TL 15 technology of anagathics. Amongst other chemicals, medical nanites are injected into the body that find infections to eliminate, repair damaged cells, etc. These nanites are not capable of self-replicating and wear out after some time thus requiring further injections.

Example: TL 20 extreme nanotech behind the TL 20 technology of global matter transport. Nanites break down an object quickly in a swarm recording what the object was on a molecular level. Other nanites communicate this information across the globe to the target site. Nanites then reconstruct the object.
 
Here's Loren Wiseman's take on the subject of nanotechnology in the TU:

"In Traveller, nanotechnology can be assumed to be present at a low level. It forms the basis of certain medical devices (more and more as TL rises), and is probably the means by which much high-tech manufacturing takes place. If we assume that MEMS are very, very expensive, and are not self-replicating (for whatever reason), we have the basis for excluding much of Drexler's nanotechnology from Traveller. Imperial research stations (q.v.) are probably experimenting with nano-tech, and GMs who wish to put their victims ... er ... players through a "nanites gone wild" scenario can look to these places for justification. Individiual GMs, however, are free to make nanotechnology as widespread as they like (GURPS Robots and the two GURPS Ultra-Tech books contain the relevant rules; indeed, the discussion of the Safetech technology path on pp. UTT9 pretty much describes how to set up the Traveller universe).
[GURPS Traveller, p. 15 SB]​

Hans
 
a techology i think is missing form traveller? integrated networking.


You're kidding, right? Just because there aren't PC-level rules for networking between ships you seriously think it isn't happening? There aren't rules for shoe salesmen and plumbers so they can't exist either, right?

using Interferometry techniques, you could gain an effective sensor apature with a diamiter of thousands of KM. that would give you pin point targetting info for things like Meson guns.

What makes you think that meson guns aren't targeted that way already? You're talking about an emitter aboard a vessel traveling along a varying high speed vector successfully targeting another vessel which is traveling along a varying different high speed vector at range measured in light seconds. Meson guns aboard ships are able to aim so precisely that the particles decay INSIDE the target.

Have you also forgotten that a moving ship can employ interferometry too? If the time lag inherent in passing sensor pictures between separated ships can be adjusted for, the time lag in taking sensor pictures at different times from the same moving ship can be adjusted for.

it would make Picket screens significantly more effective, as it would give them access to very high resolution sensors.

There are lots pickets, escorts, and other ships in the setting. They seem to be of little use in a Book 5 battle between battleships, so what do you think they're doing there? Might their role in providing sensor information be something that occurs in the setting but wasn't included in the game because it would increase complexity and slow down play without providing a worthwhile benefit?

A supposed lack in rules doesn't mean a lack in reality.

Also, cyberwarfare...

Never heard of Virus?

If you want to avoid Virus, there are also references to cyberattacks assisting hijackers from CT through Hard Times. The game already has rules for computers, intrusion, electronics, comm operations, and other so why should anyone need specific cyberpunk rules?

I feel obliged to note that nanoscopic, self repicating objects with no objective other than making more of themselves already exist. thier called Viruses, and while nasty, have not wiped out all life on earth.

I'd be obliged if you understood how virii worked. They need a specific protected environment in which to "work" and that "work" can be easily stopped. The same is true of the nano we use today.

We're using nanotech right now. Your printer uses a nano produced product, so does your sunblock, and the uses are growing. What we aren't using and can never use is Drexler's version of nano. It's a thermodynamic impossibility.
 
Visual & IR sensors are laughably low tech in most Traveller versions, especially in MGT. More akin to TL 6.
 
Visual & IR sensors are laughably low tech in most Traveller versions, especially in MGT. More akin to TL 6.


CT's Zho module has the computer on any ship capable of spotting gas giants out to three parsecs.

We can't do that now, let alone at TL 6.
 
CT's Zho module has the computer on any ship capable of spotting gas giants out to three parsecs.

We can't do that now, let alone at TL 6.

Haven't read that module. Talking about main rules, not individual modules. Also, which sensor, exactly, detects the GGs? I know in MT grav sensors can have a range of up to 2 parsecs...
 
Haven't read that module.

So what? Ignorance is no excuse.

Talking about main rules, not individual modules.

Those are the main rules. That's how GDW added rules to the game. You got ATV rules out of Across the Bright Face, Droyne chargen from Twilight's Peak, and so on. It's how things were done then. Complaining about it is like complaining that water is wet.

Also, which sensor, exactly, detects the GGs?

The ship's computer uses the ship's sensors to detect gas giants out to 3 parsecs. It's CT, they expected people to use the common sense they were supposed to have to fill in the blanks to meet the particular needs of their game. No further details are needed unless you need them to explain away another incorrect claim.

I know in MT grav sensors can have a range of up to 2 parsecs...

Are those in the main rules? :rofl:
 
Back
Top