MegaTraveller skill resolution
- Thread starter zonk
- Start date
Unless he takes extra time (performing a Cautious Task), WJP. Which has the effect of doubling time for a +4 on the success chance.
Makes his routine on 3+, as a nat 2 always fails. (97%)
Makes difficult on 5+ (5+2+4=11), 83%
Makes formidable on 9+ (9+2+4=15) 28%
Makes his routine on 3+, as a nat 2 always fails. (97%)
Makes difficult on 5+ (5+2+4=11), 83%
Makes formidable on 9+ (9+2+4=15) 28%
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Stat/3 isn't going to help. (Typically, if you go Stat/3, you also increase difficulty by 1 point. Aramis does this.)
1. It inflates the benefit of having a good stat at the expense of de-valuing the benefit of skilll (explained in earlier posts).
(I mean, it's much easier to get a Stat-12 during CharGen than it is to get Skill-4...yet Stat-12 is equivalent to Skill-4 in the Stat/3 system.)
2. It supports "bonus groups" rather than having each stat provide a scalable benefit to a task roll (i.e., there is no difference between Stat-7 and Stat-8, but there is a difference between Stat-8 and Stat-9).
3. It still returns results similar to what I said above--only giving the player a couple of options with his dice throws.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
This is true.
But, again, I don't mention it because it's a conditional modifier. I spoke to the default task system.
Conditional modifiers are moot in this discussion (respectfully, Wil) because they can be applied no matter which task system is used.
This is saying, "If you take special care in attempting your task...by taking twice the amount of time required...the GM will award you a +4 DM to your throw."
You can apply that whether you're using the UTP, the UGM, or the CT systems.
It's like saying...
...if you're rushed, you'll have to take a -4 on that roll!
...if you have access to a TL 10+ medical facility, you'll get a +2 DM on your medical throws!
...if you are using a high tech deluxe tool set, you'll get a +1 DM on your Mechanical throws.
...because you only have access to a TL 5 electrical goodies, you'll suffer a -3 DM when using those tools to fix the ship's Jump Drive with your Engineering or Electrical skill.
It's a situational modifer and not really relevant to an examination of the UTP task system...because one can come up with an un-ending list of situational modifiers, and these modifiers can, really, be applied no matter which Traveller task system you're using.
So, my analysis of the UTP above, stands. It most cases, it's a two-roll system.
Yes I understood the problem with going with stat/3. I said I see why people did it.
And yes I understood that conditional modifiers would change the results.
Still...
an average character can only do difficult tasks without taking twice as long or having special tools. I may be able to live with that, but it is something to consider.
I hafta say also that stat effects in only blocks of 5 bothers me.
As I said I'll have to consider all of this.
Of course adding another stupid die roll would get around the stat problem, maybe add that as an option for the player to decide on a case by case situation.
I dunno
And yes I understood that conditional modifiers would change the results.
Still...
an average character can only do difficult tasks without taking twice as long or having special tools. I may be able to live with that, but it is something to consider.
I hafta say also that stat effects in only blocks of 5 bothers me.
As I said I'll have to consider all of this.
Of course adding another stupid die roll would get around the stat problem, maybe add that as an option for the player to decide on a case by case situation.
I dunno
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
What die roll would you add?
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
WJP, why don't you just direct him to the couple of threads where you and aramis and others duked this all out and you explain it thoroughly? That would be easier. 
Just have the character roll for their stat, you roll less (or equal?) and add a bonus. If the stat is 5 or less +1, 6 - 10 bonus +2, 11 - F bonus +3
It does add another die roll but it gets over the fact of rolling below your stat is often the kiss of death for succeeding (if that roll is also used as the skill determination roll also). It would also mean that a high stat character could succeed in adding his stat and still fail the skill check.
point me to the thread on skills. I like a good thrashing of points of view
--
zonk
here is an example of where stats overpower skills....
lets say there is a football skill
Vince Lombardy would have a very high skill in this, but relatively low stats; he would be killed if he went out on the field.
His players would be less knowledgable of the game of football than their coach, yet would be able to play the game much better
There are many examples of stats overpowering skills in the real world..
Thats were coaches/mentors/teachers come from.........if they have training skill, so much the better.
As Ive shown in my little table earlier, stat/3 does not change things much from the stat/5 rule except at the far extremes of the stat limits for players yet gives more of a sense that a str-10 player has a better chance of doing something than a str-5
as far as the rifleman skill...
yes the more dextrous player would be just as good a shot as a lower dex but experienced player ...on a shooting range. The experience allows the lower stat player to keep up with a player with greater natural ability.
The combat experience simply allows that player to stay cool in actual combat conditions. Unfortunately, the rules don't really cover morale and the like very well.
Its more important to choose a task system that gives results that the players/ref find enjoyable and playable regardless of analysis and breakpoints.
for me, that's the UTP using the (stat/3)-1 DM and the untouched task target rolls
lets say there is a football skill
Vince Lombardy would have a very high skill in this, but relatively low stats; he would be killed if he went out on the field.
His players would be less knowledgable of the game of football than their coach, yet would be able to play the game much better
There are many examples of stats overpowering skills in the real world..
Thats were coaches/mentors/teachers come from.........if they have training skill, so much the better.
As Ive shown in my little table earlier, stat/3 does not change things much from the stat/5 rule except at the far extremes of the stat limits for players yet gives more of a sense that a str-10 player has a better chance of doing something than a str-5
as far as the rifleman skill...
yes the more dextrous player would be just as good a shot as a lower dex but experienced player ...on a shooting range. The experience allows the lower stat player to keep up with a player with greater natural ability.
The combat experience simply allows that player to stay cool in actual combat conditions. Unfortunately, the rules don't really cover morale and the like very well.
Its more important to choose a task system that gives results that the players/ref find enjoyable and playable regardless of analysis and breakpoints.
for me, that's the UTP using the (stat/3)-1 DM and the untouched task target rolls
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Why not just use the UGM and have one die roll and no skill devaluation?
I have no idea what search terms to use. Terms like "skill" will deliver too many results.
I'd search in the CT forum. Look for "WJP" as author, and I'd search for the term "UGM". Use the advanced search.
You'll get a lot of hits, but you might be able to find the various threads in which this has been discussed.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
There's no reason to get into a big debate about this, but there is some huge skill devaluation with stat/3 systems.
Stat-12 is fairly common. It's much more common than Skill-4. Yet, they both yield the same bonus to a task roll.
In Traveller (CT and MT)...
(These definitions are supported in both CT and MT.)
Skill-0 is a basic understanding of the skill. (Person knows a bit about basic first aid. Medical-0)
Skill-1 is formalized training. (Person is a skilled paramedic. Medical-1)
Skill-2 is advanced formalized training. (Person is a critical care nurse. Medic-2)
Skill-3 is professional level experience. (Person is a full fledged doctor. Medical-3)
Skill-4+ is an advanced, experienced, professional (Person is a full fledged doctor with mucho experience. Medical-4 or better).
So...
When we start allowing a +3 or more benefit from a stat, what we are saying, in reality, is that level of raw, untrained, natural ability is equivalent to professional level experience.
That just doesn't correlate well with real life, logic, or real experience.
You may have a good education (EDU-12), and you may be a pretty smart fella (INT-13)...but does that mean you've got the know-how and expertise necessary to perform an operation just because you took a first aid course?
Because that's what you're saying...
Stat-12, Medical-0 rolls 2D +4 (That's a bonus of +4 for your stat, and a +0 for your actual skill).
Do you see how that devalues the character with a high Medical skill?
Now, this is very true.
If you and your group likes throwing (thinking of something crazy) a d6 for every point of skill and still using the UTP target numbers...you'll succeed on just about every throw you make.
But...if THAT is what makes the game fun...then THAT'S definitely what you should use.
As Hunters' sig says. It's your game. Play it the way that makes you happiest.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
BTW, I didn't address this...
I would disagree with this. Vince Lombardy has a different skill other than "Football". In real life, there are many great football players who make lousy coaches. Vince does have some skill in "Football", but what he also has is a skill called "Coaching", and this is very high.
In Traveller terms, this would probably translate to the "Instruction" (first seen in Book 4, I believe).
Again, I would disagree. There are instances where stats overpower skills, but it's typically very high level stats overpowering low level skills.
Raw, natural talent won't automatically "train" you with specific skills. Thus, the old saying, "There's no substitute for experience."
If you score high on an IQ test (high INT), does that automatically mean you know how to program an intricate piece of software needed for a large company?
Nope. You need Computer skill for that.
Your raw natural talent may allow you to figure out how to put together your own desktop PC (an example of high INT stat overpowering low Computer skill), but your high INT isn't going to help you with all the ins-and-outs, pros-and-cons or creating a viable piece of software for a large, multi-national corporation.
That job requires experience. It requires skill. Not just high INT.
Another example...
Let's say you just graduated from Harvard Law. You've got a very high EDU score now (and some skill in Law).
Does this mean you can pilot the space shuttle? Does this mean you can repair the reactor on a US Naval submarine? Does this mean you can perform brain surgery?
See where I'm getting at here?
If you allow a huge DM from having a high EDU, then you're saying that a high EDU allows you to do ALL OF THOSE THINGS at a very high level.
Stats are broad-based natural ability.
Skills are focussed experience in a specific area.
Just because you have EDU-12, you should not be able to pilot the space shuttle as a Pilot-4 would.
Just because you have EDU-13, you should not be able to repair a submarine reactor as an Engineer-4 would.
Just because yo have EDU-14, you should not be able to operate on a human brain as a Medical-4 doctor would.
You need skill, training, knowledge, expertise in these areas to succeed.
This is why a GM should always be wary of a task system that overpowers Traveller skills in favor of Traveller stats.
I would disagree with this. Vince Lombardy has a different skill other than "Football". In real life, there are many great football players who make lousy coaches. Vince does have some skill in "Football", but what he also has is a skill called "Coaching", and this is very high.
In Traveller terms, this would probably translate to the "Instruction" (first seen in Book 4, I believe).
Again, I would disagree. There are instances where stats overpower skills, but it's typically very high level stats overpowering low level skills.
Raw, natural talent won't automatically "train" you with specific skills. Thus, the old saying, "There's no substitute for experience."
If you score high on an IQ test (high INT), does that automatically mean you know how to program an intricate piece of software needed for a large company?
Nope. You need Computer skill for that.
Your raw natural talent may allow you to figure out how to put together your own desktop PC (an example of high INT stat overpowering low Computer skill), but your high INT isn't going to help you with all the ins-and-outs, pros-and-cons or creating a viable piece of software for a large, multi-national corporation.
That job requires experience. It requires skill. Not just high INT.
Another example...
Let's say you just graduated from Harvard Law. You've got a very high EDU score now (and some skill in Law).
Does this mean you can pilot the space shuttle? Does this mean you can repair the reactor on a US Naval submarine? Does this mean you can perform brain surgery?
See where I'm getting at here?
If you allow a huge DM from having a high EDU, then you're saying that a high EDU allows you to do ALL OF THOSE THINGS at a very high level.
Stats are broad-based natural ability.
Skills are focussed experience in a specific area.
Just because you have EDU-12, you should not be able to pilot the space shuttle as a Pilot-4 would.
Just because you have EDU-13, you should not be able to repair a submarine reactor as an Engineer-4 would.
Just because yo have EDU-14, you should not be able to operate on a human brain as a Medical-4 doctor would.
You need skill, training, knowledge, expertise in these areas to succeed.
This is why a GM should always be wary of a task system that overpowers Traveller skills in favor of Traveller stats.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
One last point to highlight on this...
You see, stats govern task rolls. There are only six stats, but there are several skills.
If you allow stat inflation, then you allow that character to be highly skilled in every area of which the stat governs.
Let's say EDU governs (maybe you disagree that EDU governs these things, but let's just agree on that for the sake of argument)...
Law
Medical
Broker
Pilot
Communications
Computer
Admin
Engineering
Navigation
By giving a character with a EDU-12, using the Stat/3 system (or any stat inflating system), what we're doing is, in effect, sayin that the character's EDU is so powerful as it makes the character a professional in ALL of these categories....in every task roll governed by EDU.
So, a fairly common EDU-12 means that a character has a professional level of knowledge in being a lawyer, in being a doctor, in being a businessman, in being a pilot, in communications equipment, in computer equipment, in fixing complicated drives, in navigating among the stars?
Or, another way to look at this...
There are no doctors with high EDU's and high Medical skills who know nothing about and are fairly unskilled with computers?
Of course their are.
And, this is why bonus from stats should be held in check and not allowed to overpower skills.
Some high Stats should overpower low level skill, but never high level skill.
Now, there are special rules out there for the unskilled that provides negatives to throws if a character has no skill (and those are good rules). These really help in combating Stat inflation (but, why should we have to combat it at all...why not just not have skill inflation?) But, there are enough default and zero level skills in Traveller to serve my point.
One can argue that EDU doesn't govern Pilot...or (fill in the blank). That point is moot. In my own game, I use the most appropriate Stat to govern a skill, and the same Stat doesn't govern the skill in all situations. Stat governorship of skills is dependent on the situation.
I'm just showing you an example. If you disagree with the Stats and Skills I used above, simply input the Stats/Skill combination you do agree with...and my example will stand.
This was all taken into consideration during the development and playtesting of the UGM (by my group, and by several members of this forum)...and that is why, under the UGM, the stat bonus is automatic only for very high statted characters...and also why some stat bonuses only help a character when the difficulty is low.
You see, stats govern task rolls. There are only six stats, but there are several skills.
If you allow stat inflation, then you allow that character to be highly skilled in every area of which the stat governs.
Let's say EDU governs (maybe you disagree that EDU governs these things, but let's just agree on that for the sake of argument)...
Law
Medical
Broker
Pilot
Communications
Computer
Admin
Engineering
Navigation
By giving a character with a EDU-12, using the Stat/3 system (or any stat inflating system), what we're doing is, in effect, sayin that the character's EDU is so powerful as it makes the character a professional in ALL of these categories....in every task roll governed by EDU.
So, a fairly common EDU-12 means that a character has a professional level of knowledge in being a lawyer, in being a doctor, in being a businessman, in being a pilot, in communications equipment, in computer equipment, in fixing complicated drives, in navigating among the stars?
Or, another way to look at this...
There are no doctors with high EDU's and high Medical skills who know nothing about and are fairly unskilled with computers?
Of course their are.
And, this is why bonus from stats should be held in check and not allowed to overpower skills.
Some high Stats should overpower low level skill, but never high level skill.
Now, there are special rules out there for the unskilled that provides negatives to throws if a character has no skill (and those are good rules). These really help in combating Stat inflation (but, why should we have to combat it at all...why not just not have skill inflation?) But, there are enough default and zero level skills in Traveller to serve my point.
One can argue that EDU doesn't govern Pilot...or (fill in the blank). That point is moot. In my own game, I use the most appropriate Stat to govern a skill, and the same Stat doesn't govern the skill in all situations. Stat governorship of skills is dependent on the situation.
I'm just showing you an example. If you disagree with the Stats and Skills I used above, simply input the Stats/Skill combination you do agree with...and my example will stand.
This was all taken into consideration during the development and playtesting of the UGM (by my group, and by several members of this forum)...and that is why, under the UGM, the stat bonus is automatic only for very high statted characters...and also why some stat bonuses only help a character when the difficulty is low.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Well...you know what I mean.
If you roll 2D six times, you're bound to get a high roll. Chances are, this will be a physical stat (3 of the 6 throws). Let's say you roll a STR-10.
If you pick the physcial development table, it's fair to say that a +2 STR, over a couple of throws, isn't that unusal.
I mean, Holy Tuna!
Check out the stats in the NPC LBB supplements (Veterans, 1001 Characters, Citizens of the Imperium). Seeing those "C"'s in the UPP isn't that uncommon.
Well...you know what I mean.
If you roll 2D six times, you're bound to get a high roll. Chances are, this will be a physical stat (3 of the 6 throws). Let's say you roll a STR-10.
If you pick the physcial development table, it's fair to say that a +2 STR, over a couple of throws, isn't that unusal.
I mean, Holy Tuna!
Check out the stats in the NPC LBB supplements (Veterans, 1001 Characters, Citizens of the Imperium). Seeing those "C"'s in the UPP isn't that uncommon.
Ah, true, true.
a couple more coments on task systems in general:
Task labels are usually based upon some "standard" level of skill and stat. UTP is based upon Stat=7 and Skill = 1.
Stat/3 is far more generous than Stat/5, but I like my space opera to be chandelier swinging swash-buckling and trek and star wars type "doing the impossible is possible with skill and luck, and maybe just a little extra time."
0-5 ranges are fairly typical in games as stat ranges.
I do believe that minimal training and "only available by training" stats should be professional levels of competence (MTU: Stat F, Skill 1, DM+6; Official MT: DM+4), compararable to professional with slightly above average stats (MTU: Stat 9, skill 3, net DM+6; Official MT: DM+4).
I see little skill devaluation, and Joe Normal has it no easier nor harder...
Task labels are usually based upon some "standard" level of skill and stat. UTP is based upon Stat=7 and Skill = 1.
Stat/3 is far more generous than Stat/5, but I like my space opera to be chandelier swinging swash-buckling and trek and star wars type "doing the impossible is possible with skill and luck, and maybe just a little extra time."
0-5 ranges are fairly typical in games as stat ranges.
I do believe that minimal training and "only available by training" stats should be professional levels of competence (MTU: Stat F, Skill 1, DM+6; Official MT: DM+4), compararable to professional with slightly above average stats (MTU: Stat 9, skill 3, net DM+6; Official MT: DM+4).
I see little skill devaluation, and Joe Normal has it no easier nor harder...
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Now, I'm not willing to bet the farm on this, but I thought the UTP was based on a Stat-7, Skill-2 situation...
Ahh....
Well, this explains mucho of why you and I end up on opposite sides of the fences so often.
You see, I'm a realist. One of the things that attracts me to Traveller is that it's about normal, regular, everyday Joes, MacGuyvering a lightsaber from a paper clip. It's about ordinary people caught up in extraordinary events. And, it's got this whole "seems like reality" feel about it (in that it attempts, when it can, to use real science and such).
I GM that way too. We have our action. But, it's definitely not Star Wars. (I play, well, Star Wars when I want that kind of space opera action...). In my Traveller game, bullets hurt. Bullets are real. Bullets can kill. And, my players respect gunfights (although we do have quite a few of them).
As you can see, my analysis above on task systems is always firmly rooted in an attempt to model reality.
So, you saying that makes a lot of sense to me (now).
Heck, Wil, you should have said that years ago!
We've got different pairs of glasses on...
Last edited:
I did. Several times. (averages more than once a year.)
I like guns to be deadly, too. But in looking at the "violence" done by stat/3, it's really rather mild WHEN coupled to a +1 target number.
I, too want realism... but not to the same standards, and often not in the same way.
As for based on Stat 7 Skill 1, Look at the labels. Formidable can be done (1/36) with stat 7 skill 2, so it can ONLY be done with extra time (cautious task) for Stat 7 skill 1, and then it's still difficult, requiring a natural 9, but a stat 1 skill 0 can still make a hail mary cautious task on formidable tasks (2/36); a only a stat 15 can attempt a formidable unskilled, and even then it's extra time.
With Stat/3 and +1 TN, the stat 7 is unaffected, the stat 1 skill 0 is reduced to 1/36, while the unskilled formidable (cautiously) can only be attempted by stat 12+... still in the exceptional range.... but now not just the maximum trained-up ubermenschen. Impossible remains such for unskilled characters,, still impossible without a cautious attempt for merely employable characters who aren't above average, and even minimal skilled ubermenschen don't have an easy time of it.
I like guns to be deadly, too. But in looking at the "violence" done by stat/3, it's really rather mild WHEN coupled to a +1 target number.
I, too want realism... but not to the same standards, and often not in the same way.
As for based on Stat 7 Skill 1, Look at the labels. Formidable can be done (1/36) with stat 7 skill 2, so it can ONLY be done with extra time (cautious task) for Stat 7 skill 1, and then it's still difficult, requiring a natural 9, but a stat 1 skill 0 can still make a hail mary cautious task on formidable tasks (2/36); a only a stat 15 can attempt a formidable unskilled, and even then it's extra time.
With Stat/3 and +1 TN, the stat 7 is unaffected, the stat 1 skill 0 is reduced to 1/36, while the unskilled formidable (cautiously) can only be attempted by stat 12+... still in the exceptional range.... but now not just the maximum trained-up ubermenschen. Impossible remains such for unskilled characters,, still impossible without a cautious attempt for merely employable characters who aren't above average, and even minimal skilled ubermenschen don't have an easy time of it.
12 is common?..less than 3% chance for any given stat to be that .
I see your point but disagree anyways.
Education, as things learned formally or informally, IS experience. I feel that to use it on tasks that assume specific training ( such as medical or electronics ) is a bad thing regarless of examples inthe rules. Perhaps edu-10 med-1, using medical as an example, it implies that the doctor is very well trained, but for some reason is just bad at his job.
for guns, a dex-12, gun-0 ( dm+3 in my system ) can shoot as well as a dex-5 gun-3 by virtue of a steady hand, etc. He just would be clueless as to any gunsmithing skills, sighting a rifle in, clearing jams, etc.
high int, lo-skill charaters might do as well or better than low int and higher skill at troubleshooting because the higher intelligence implies greater creativity in solving problems rather that relying on rote or past examples.... perhaps if the lo-int hi-skill player hasn't seen that particular problem before, he'd be at a loss as to how to begin to solve it, yet complete the task better once the solution is found.
therefore troubleshooting should include int as a DM, but not for the task to actually fix the problem.
I think it all depends on how the tasks are formulated and what dm's are allowed.
I'm afraid I do not feel your solution is the best as it allows a very low stat player to be as good as a hi-stat player at least some of the time whereas my method means a hi-stat player always has improved odds over a lo-stat one.
my 2cr, anyways.
I see your point but disagree anyways.
Education, as things learned formally or informally, IS experience. I feel that to use it on tasks that assume specific training ( such as medical or electronics ) is a bad thing regarless of examples inthe rules. Perhaps edu-10 med-1, using medical as an example, it implies that the doctor is very well trained, but for some reason is just bad at his job.
for guns, a dex-12, gun-0 ( dm+3 in my system ) can shoot as well as a dex-5 gun-3 by virtue of a steady hand, etc. He just would be clueless as to any gunsmithing skills, sighting a rifle in, clearing jams, etc.
high int, lo-skill charaters might do as well or better than low int and higher skill at troubleshooting because the higher intelligence implies greater creativity in solving problems rather that relying on rote or past examples.... perhaps if the lo-int hi-skill player hasn't seen that particular problem before, he'd be at a loss as to how to begin to solve it, yet complete the task better once the solution is found.
therefore troubleshooting should include int as a DM, but not for the task to actually fix the problem.
I think it all depends on how the tasks are formulated and what dm's are allowed.
I'm afraid I do not feel your solution is the best as it allows a very low stat player to be as good as a hi-stat player at least some of the time whereas my method means a hi-stat player always has improved odds over a lo-stat one.
my 2cr, anyways.
Similar threads
