MegaTraveller skill resolution

[zonk]

MegaTraveller is the only version I never bought.

What's the skill system?

And... is there a FAQ about the differences between CT and Mega?

 

[aramis]

Skill acquisition: one extra roll per term, labelled special duty. Extra skill reciept if made. An extra (Bonus) skill roll for Promotion, Position/Commission, or Special Duty made by 4 points or more.

This works out to about 1.7 skills per term, versus about 1.3 per term for CT.

The actual resolution system:

Tasks given levels and TN's, plus two "adds"
Impossible 19+
Formidable 15+
Difficult 11+
Routine 7+
Simple 3+

An add is either a skill or an attribute. For skills, it's the level; for stats, it's stat/5 (round down).

Roll 2d+DM's from adds.
The max addition is +8 from adds.

Time increments are optional, but are on 3d-DM's from Adds, raise to minimum 3 if needed, and then multipliy that total by the time increment to find the total time

Unskilled, up the difficulty by one level (effectively DM -4)
Bad circumstances, up a difficulty level.
Notably good circumstances, reduce it by a level.

Taking extra time, down one level, but double the time increment
Being Hasty, up one level, but DM is doubled for time roll.

If you make by 2+, it is a "special success", and fail by 2 is a "special failure". On a special failure, or a natual 2, roll a mishap. Mishaps are usually 2d, but several modifiers can make it more
Hazardous: rolls 3d
Fateful: always roll a mishap if failed.
Natural 2 when roll failed by 3+: +1d to mishap check

15+ Destroyed
11+ Major
7+ Minor
3+ superficial

 

[DonM]

And note that the most common MT houserule is to make the stat add stat/3 instead of stat/5, and to change the difficulties to 4-8-12-16-20.

Well, it seems like the most common houserule to me.

Even in 1988-90, that's how we played.

 

[Supplement Four]

And note that the most common MT houserule is to make the stat add stat/3 instead of stat/5, and to change the difficulties to 4-8-12-16-20.

Well, it seems like the most common houserule to me.

Even in 1988-90, that's how we played.

I agree that this is a popular tweak to MT. But, I'm not sure many people realize what monkeying around with the UTP like this does to the game.

If you mod the UTP to go with Stat/3, you are greatly overweighting stats in the game. The system becomes more like the T4 dice system.

A character with a Stat-4 gets a +1 on the dice throw.

A character with a Skill-1 has a good, working knowledge of the skill (like a paramedic with a Medical-1 skill).

So, in doing the Stat/3 thingy, what you're saying is that a lowly Stat-4 is equivalent to basic training in a skill.

That doesn't make sense, does it?

At Stat-6 (which we'll call "average"...I think a Stat 6, 7, or 8 is "average" in Traveller) provides as much benefit as a professional working in a field (as a critical care nurse with Medical-2).

At Stat-9, we're saying that level of natural ability is equivalent to an experience person in a professional field (as a doctore with Medical-3).

And, this problem just gets worse the higher the stats go. For example, a Stat-12 is much more common in the game than a Skill-4, yet both yield the same benefit to the dice throw.

At Stat-15, you get a whopping +5 DM to your throws!



Now, compare this with Stat/5, as written in MT. The max benefit is a +3 DM, and to achieve that, you've got to have the highest natural abililty known to man (Stat-15)....not a fairly common Stat-12.

On the low end, you've got to almost be average (Stat-5) to even get a benefit. I'd argue this isn't a good aspect of the UTP, but it's a heck of a lot better than getting a +1DM on a 2D6 system for just having a Stat-3!

With the Stat/3 requirement, the only that that won't get a benefit from their natural ability is a Stat-2!



Also remember, we're working with a pyramid (not quite a bell curve with only two dice) of only 11 units using 2D6. If you start handing out +4's (+3 for stat and +1 for skill) wholesale, that blows that system up real quick.

What you'll end up having is players making their rolls most of the time (so why even have them)?


Best bet, if you're going to use the MT task system (the UTP), use it "as written". The DGP boys put a lot of time into working on that system (and can see it's various stages of development through several Traveller publications), and it works best when the modifier remains Stat/5.

 

[Ishmael]

int(stat/3)-1 is what I use with no changes to difficulty numbers
I don't see that it changes things too much
gifted do better than avergae people
crippled do worse than average people

stat dm (/5) dm(/3 - 1)
0 0 -1
1 0 -1
2 0 -1
3 0 0
4 0 0
5 +1 0
6 +1 +1
7 +1 +1
8 +1 +1
9 +1 +2
10 +2 +2
11 +2 +2
12 +2 +3
13 +2 +3
14 +2 +3
15 +3 +4

not much difference except and the more extreme ends

 

[aramis]

I use Stat/3, with TN raised by 1. Which is the same effect on success as (Stat/3)-1, except that tasks tend to take 1-2 time increments less.

But I also enforce the DM+8 limit on success, the DM-8 limit on time, and the minimum time= 3 increments. I also use the Experience limit (Total Skill levels can not exceed Int+Edu).

I've also used Stat/4... prefer stat/3.

Another common modification is changing exceptional success/failure from a 2 point margin to a 4 point margin.

 

[Supplement Four]

I use Stat/3, with TN raised by 1. Which is the same effect on success as (Stat/3)-1, except that tasks tend to take 1-2 time increments less.

Wil,

It also inflates stats, even with TN raised by 1 (and you're raising difficulty by one point, but you're also giving a minimum +1 DM to just about every stat available...all but Stat-2).

See, it doesn't matter what the TN's are. What's important is the boost the throw gets from a particular benefit (benefit in natural ability or experience).

Skill-3 is a medical doctor. A professional.

What you're saying is that a character with a Stat-12 has an equal amount of natural ability as a person who spent all that time in medical school.

Spend all that time in medical school gets you a Medical-3...a +3 DM on the throw.

Simply having a Stat-12 gets you the exact same benefit...a +3 DM on the throw.

See, with the Stat/3, this devalues the value of a skill level in Traveller.

But, I'll shut up now. I know you've used that system for a long time. I was just point out a flaw that many people don't see when implementing such a system.

 

[aramis]

No, WJP, you are missing one key element.

It makes Joe Average, MD a net +5 (instead of +4)
While it makes Dexter Ity See, Medic a +5
But even Dex Eff, due to the diff shift for unskilled, effectively only a +1

You constantly overlook the unskilled penalty.

 

[Supplement Four]

No, WJP, you are missing one key element.

(snip)

You constantly overlook the unskilled penalty.

I wasn't forgetting the unskilled penalty. It does even things out a bit, I'll grant you.

But, once a character is skilled, the skill devaluation is back.

 

[zonk]

Let me thank you for the information. You've explained it extremely well and, additionally, given me a look at how people played it in real life.

cool.

I don't know if I should take this to a different forum but what do you think was the best traveller task resolution system?

I know that I'm asking on the MT forum so it might be a bit biased, but you did a great job in educating me so I thought I'd push it ;-)

--
zonk

 

[aramis]

MT is right up there for me.

Vampire The Masquerade (1st Edition) also has a really nice one, and it works quite well with MT level skills and Stat/(4 or 5) for stat components... So nicely that I created a port of Traveller over to it...

EABA is also really good. While playtesting EABA, we continued the T20 campaign I'd been running in the T20 playtest.

Seriously, I've tried MT, T2300/2300AD, TNE, T4, T4.1, T4.2/T5, and a bunch of other equivalent systems outside traveller. MT is my favorite overall, but the above I've used for traveller, as well.

 

[zonk]

Thanks!

--
zonk

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't know if I should take this to a different forum but what do you think was the best traveller task resolution system?

The UTP (Universal Task Profile) from MT is a damn good system. As I state above, there's some real mechanical reason why it shouldn't be modded.


I'm a CT player, and I like the more free-for-all system that CT uses. The best description of this system can be found in The Traveller Adventure.

And, many people use the Univeral Game Mechanic, which is a system I designed (with some playtesting by people on this forum) for use with CT. The UGM can be used with a MT style game, and it's actually superior to the UTP in a few ways.

For example, with the UGM, if you have a Stat-5, you're rolling with different results than if you have a Stat-9. That gives an edge to the guy with the Stat that is 4 points higher.

The UTP (MT sytem), of course, doesn't give you this. A character with Stat-5 gets the same benefit as a character with Stat-9.

Under the UGM, each and every stat provides a different benefit--you don't get those "benefit lumps" like you with with the UTP (or any Stat/X system).

Also, the UGM can exactly replicate throws written in Classic Traveller publications. The UTP can't do that.

The UGM skews Critical Success so that CS is easier to achieve on easier tasks--harder to achieve on harder tasks. Also, CS is easier the more skilled a character is. The reverse is true for Critical Failure. The UGM skews CF so that it is easier to avoid when the task difficulty is easy, and harder to avoid as the task difficulty gets harder. Higher expertise (skill) will also help a character avoid a Critical Failure.

Under the UTP (MT system), CS and CF are a blanket percentage for everyone, regardless of task difficulty or how skilled a person is.

BTW, the UGM provides (in most cases) the exact same percentage chance of success as the UTP when the task difficulty is the same (EASY, ROUTINE, DIFFICULT, FORMIDABLE, and IMPOSSIBLE tasks will give you the same chance of success whether you use the UTP or the UGM). I wrote the UGM this way so that it can be easily used with a MT supplement.

Also, in CT, typically, a character will get a +1DM for making a stat requirement for a task roll. The UGM is written to mirror this (like I said, the UGM is specifically designed for CT), where as the UTP can provide up to a +3DM (Stat-15/5) for stats.

You don't have the skill devaluation with the UGM as you do with the UTP (and especially with the Stat/3 or Stat/4 mods of the UTP). If you go with the Stat/4 idea, you'll make this problem even worse. As I explain above, many people who've modded the UTP go with a Stat/3 system, which, again, allows for up to a whopping +5DM. Doing this greatly overweights stats, because were're talking about a 2D6 system. +5 is incredible. Heck, +3 is a pretty amazing DM. That's why you see CT, most of the time, a certain stat providing only a +1 bonus.

Those Stat/5, Stat/4, Stat/3 systems tend to give more punch to a character's stat at the expense of the punch provided by skill and expertise (meaning, stats are overweighted).

For example, let's say you've got Skill-2 and Stat-12.

Under each system, you'll get a +2 for skill.

Under CT, you might get a +1 if your Stat is 9+ (and a -1 if your Stat is 5-). So, you're rolling 2D +3. (+2 for Skill, +1 for Stat).

Under the UTP, you'll get a +2 with Stat-12. So, you're rolling 2D +4. (And here, the weight of the skill no longer dominates. The stat is equalized, with both providing +2 each to the roll.)

Under UTP with Stat/4, you'll get a +3 with Stat-12. Now, you're rolling 2D +5. (More weight to the stats: +2 for skill, and +3 for stat.)

Under the UTP with Stat/3, it's even worse with a +4 for a Stat-12. You're rolling 2D +6. (Skill still gives you +2, but stat gives you twice as much benefit with +4. Stat is getting out of hand.)

The UGM, though, provides a task system that weights stats as they are typically weighted in CT. Under the UGM, if you have Skill-2 and Stat-12, you'll be rolling 2D +3, just like you would under standard CT rules.


If you're interested in the UGM, you can find it by clicking on tis link:

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=10910&highlight=Universal+Game+Mechanic

 

[zonk]

Thanks. I'll check it out

For example, with the UGM, if you have a Stat-5, you're rolling with different results than if you have a Stat-9. That gives an edge to the guy with the Stat that is 4 points higher.

I don't understand this. Apparently if you have a higher stat (9 vs 5 in the example) you should have a different results (I assume better results?). And yet if I understand your system the best you can get is a +1DM if you roll under your stat.

A character with a stat 9 has a better chance of gaining the +1DM than one with stat of 5. Is this what you meant? In your system the DM for stats is then determined only when you make the roll. A character with a stat of 9 could fail and a character with a stat of 5 could succeed, reversing the usual trends. Correct?

In your example you indicate that you roll only once, check to see if it's below the stat value, add bonus if it is, add skill bonus and if the result is larger than 8 you succeed.

A character with stat 9 could roll 10, not receive the stat bonus and still succeed and a character with stat 5 could roll 4, receive the bonus and fail because the total is less than 8.

In fact low stat characters will not want to succeed on the stat check as it dooms them to failure and high stat characters will want to fail as stat at 9 means you succeed when you fail your stat roll (by rolling 10 or greater).

If I understand your system correctly. Or perhaps I'm just confused.

--
zonk

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't understand this. Apparently if you have a higher stat (9 vs 5 in the example) you should have a different results (I assume better results?).

Under the MT system (the UTP), Stat/5 will give you a bonus.

So, under that system, whether you have STR-5, STR-6, STR-7, STR-8, or STR-9, all you're going to get is a +1 DM on your throw. There's no difference between a Stat-5 and a Stat-9.

At Stat-10, you magically get a +2 DM. So, there's a huge difference between Stat-9 and Stat-10. But, there's no difference between Stat-8 and Stat-9...and there's no difference between Stat-10 and Stat-14.

That's the UTP.

Any system where Stat/x is in play will give you those "bonus groups".

The Stat/3 mod of the UTP closes the gap a bit, but the gap is still there (your groups contain three stats instead of five), and this method de-values the effect of a skill on a task roll (as I've illustrated above).







With the UGM, Each and every stat provides a benefit to your task roll. If you have Stat-9, you're damn likely to get a +1 DM on your throw. If you have a Stat-5, you're not near as likely to get that bonus.

Plus, skills remain powerful.

See, what the UGM does is give you a chance to get a bonus. The higher your Stat, the more likely you'll get the bonus...so, having a Stat-9 is definitely a good thing (compared to the UTP where there is really no difference, mechanically, in having a Stat-9 over a Stat-5).

And yet if I understand your system the best you can get is a +1DM if you roll under your stat.

Most of the time. This keeps stats and "natural ability" from overpowering skills and "trained experience" as it happens in the UTP and the UTP mods.

(At Stat-13 and up, a character has a chance for a +2 DM.)

A character with a stat of 9 could fail and a character with a stat of 5 could succeed, reversing the usual trends. Correct?

That is correct.

Another benefit of the UGM is that your natural ability becomes less and less beneficial to you the harder the task gets.

For example, if you have Stat-7, and an easy-to-average task, you'll get a +1 DM on your throw if your result is 2-7. This means your natural ability will probably help you. It may not, but there's a good chance it will.

Let's say your difficulty is 8+. You'll get a +1 DM on a roll of 2-7.

If you are basically skilled (Skill-0), this won't help you very much (it will a little...as if you roll a "7", your +1 DM will kick in, and your natural ability will help you accomplish your task).

If you are very skilled, you can use your experience and knowlege to apply your natural ability to the roll more often.

So, with the same throw (Stat-7 needing to roll 8+), but with a Skill-3, now we're talking about A LOT of help coming from your natural ability.

You'll succeed on a roll of 4+.

See how the UGM places it emphasis on trained experience rather than devaluing it with huge benefits coming from a person's stat (his untrained natural ability?).

Also, consider this: If you're facing an extremely difficult task (let's say you need 12+ to succeed), well, your natural ability won't help you at all. Even if you roll 7-, you'll get the +1 DM but won't succeed on the roll.

It's the trained, experienced people who make those throws.

In your example you indicate that you roll only once, check to see if it's below the stat value, add bonus if it is, add skill bonus and if the result is larger than 8 you succeed.

Yep. It's very easy to remember.

All tasks succeed on a roll of 8+.

If your roll is equal to or less than your governor stat, then you get the bonus (probably a +1, but could be a +2 if you have a very high stat).

And, you add in your skill, plus any other modifiers that the GM imposes on the roll.

A character with stat 9 could roll 10, not receive the stat bonus and still succeed and a character with stat 5 could roll 4, receive the bonus and fail because the total is less than 8.

That is correct.

A character with a Stat-9 will recieve his bonus a whopping 83% of the time (a roll of 9- on 2D6). That means he won't get his bonus only 17% of the time (when he rolls a 10-11-12). But, if he rolls that high, in all probability, he'll make the roll because he rolled so high.

The UGM repects the difficulty of a task. Just as it's harder to roll a Critical Success the harder the task...just as it's harder to avoid a Critical Failure the harder the task...it's also harder to apply untrained natural ability when the task is hard.

In fact low stat characters will not want to succeed on the stat check as it dooms them to failure and high stat characters will want to fail as stat at 9 means you succeed when you fail your stat roll (by rolling 10 or greater).

That's one way of putting it.

Another way of looking at it is...

If you have a low Stat, you probably won't benefit from natural ability.

(Because anytime you succeed on a task, you probably won't get a bonus for natural ability.)

Your characters will very low stats will almost never benefit from natural ability (although it is possible when they are highly skilled! ...as in a highly trained professional knowing himself and knowing how to draw on his natural ability)

Your characters with average stats will benefit from natural ability only on easy and average tasks.

Your characters with very high stats will benefit from natural ability on just about every task they attempt.

 

[aramis]

What it boils down to is that WJP's basic philosophy is that Stats should never make a lesser skilled but higher att character significantly better than a better skilled but lower att character. A point on which I disagree quite strongly.

WJP also routinely ignores the non-task uses for attributes in his claim of no difference between stat 5 and stat 9. For all three physicals, the most important difference between stat 5 and 9 is the ability to take 4 more points of damage... For mentals, it's 4 more allowed skill levels. For Social, well, it's Cr1000/mo more.... (Soc is the only CT/MT stat without a direct non-task use for the attribute.)

I disagree about the need for a direct effect difference for each point of stat on tasks. I do agree that each point should have some game effect, I just don't feel it's needed for tasks.

That being said, his system does accomplish those goals quite nicely, and is a decent 2d task system. I just happen to disagree with the base premises behind it. (I would, however, choose it over T4/T5 every time.)

 

[Supplement Four]

What it boils down to is that WJP's basic philosophy is that Stats should never make a lesser skilled but higher att character significantly better than a better skilled but lower att character. A point on which I disagree quite strongly.

We're definitely on the different ends of the spectrum on this one, Wil.

If a nurse (Medic-2) who's a fairly smart chick (INT-10) attempts to heal someone, she rolls 2D +4.

The, doctor, who's been to medical school and achieved Medic-3, has a INT just one point lower than the nurse (INT-9).

So....they both roll 2D +4 when making Medical throws?

That just doesn't make sense.



Stats are raw talent. They're natural ability. But, they're not trained ability.

...A character could have a hell of a DEX. Maybe he's a great basketball player. Maybe he can roll a coin over his knuckles. But, let's say this guy used took a weapon's handling class once, enough to give him a skill of AutoRifle-0.

DEX-10, AutoRifle-0

He makes a shot rolling 2D +2.

Now, compare this guy with a soldier back from Iraq. This soldier has been through basic training in the Army, and he's been in the thick of it in combat.

DEX-9, AutoRifle-1.

He also rolls throwing 2D +2.

Should both of these characters have the exact same chance of success?

I think not.

Why? Because trained experience is very important to success.

WJP also routinely ignores the non-task uses for attributes in his claim of no difference between stat 5 and stat 9.

Actually, I don't ignore that at all. It's just that what you cite here is valid no matter which Traveller task system you use.

A STR-9 will have more hit points than a STR-5 no matter if you're using the UTP, the UTP/3, CT make-it-up-as-you-go, or the UGM.

So, it's moot. It's not focussed on the OP about task systems.

 

[zonk]

I prefer skills over stats. Going the other way gives you GURPS and stats rule everything, high stats are vastly superior to skill.

On the other hand stats should make some difference. I'm not sure that the UTP (that's the MT system?) with a bonus a every 5 makes enough difference.

On a 2D6 system every +1 is important of course...

I'll have to think about it

 

[Supplement Four]

I prefer skills over stats. Going the other way gives you GURPS and stats rule everything, high stats are vastly superior to skill.

Heck, you should see the T4 system. Talk about overweighting stats.

Wil (Aramis) and I don't agree on many things (but we've both learned to respect each other), but on one thing we're united. The T4 task system ain't so great.

Take stat, add skill, then roll lower on a number of dice.

Hyper skill de-valuation.

(Although, later, rules were added to combat skill devalution, like the "It's Harder Than I Thought!" rule.)

I'm not sure that the UTP (that's the MT system?) with a bonus a every 5 makes enough difference.

The UTP (yes, the "Universal Task Profile"...it was originally developed for CT, and then used in MT when that edition of Traveller was published) absolutely does provide a lot of bonus for stats....to the point were skills are devalued, as I illustrate above.

You've got a 2D6 system. There are only 11 outcomes.

A +1 DM is a big benefit.

A +2 DM is a HUGE benefit.

A +3 DM is a MEGA benefit.

On top of this, you're adding skill level. So, your Average Joe, with Stat-7 and Skill-1 is adding a whopping +2 to every throw.

This means the lowest number you can roll is "4" (2 on 2D6 plus 2), leaving only 7 numbers left on the 2D6 system.

This is one reason why the difficulty numbers in MT are so high--so that the 2D6 system won't be blown.

Easy tasks are 3+. Well, heck, with a +2DM, that's automatic.

Then, we jump to a 7+ throw required for Average tasks. Again, most skilled characters will make this throw easily needing only a 5+ for success.

Then...we have a HUGE jump to 11+. Now, this is fairly difficult to do (which is why they call it "Difficult").

What this boils down to in MT is that you typically on have two types of throws (because Easy throws are typically automatic): You've got the fairly easy "Average" Difficulty throws, and you've got the fairly hard "Difficult" Difficulty throws.

Rarely do you see throws rated higher than "Difficult", and when you do, they're typically too hard to make.

So...

A vast majority of the time, you've got only two rolls you're making when using the UTP. The "Average" (fairly easy) roll, or the "Difficult" (fairly hard) throw. That's it. That's 80% of your throws in a game using the UTP.

The other 20% of the time, you're throwing nonskilled throws (if this penalty is implemented...it's not on all nonskilled throws) where difficulty is upped 4 points, or you're attempting something extremely hard where you need boxcars on the throw to succeed.

In practice, the UTP is basically a "two-throw" system most of the time.

 

[Supplement Four]

In practice, the UTP is basically a "two-throw" system most of the time.

Quickie example...

Stat-7, Skill-1

Will automatically make an Simple throw.

Will make a Routine throw 83% of the time.

Will make a Difficult throw 28% of the time.

Will make a Formidable throw 0% of the time.



OK, so look at that. We can throw out the "Simple" and "Formidable" categories because one has a 100% chance of success (so, why roll?) and the other has a 0% chance of success (so, why roll?).

That leaves...as I mention above...a two roll system, where one roll is rather easy (Routine throws made 83% of the time)...and one roll is rather hard to make (Difficult throw made 28% of the time).

This is one of my gripes with the UTP (and one of the reasons I designed the UGM instead of just using the UTP in my game).

The Stat-7, Skill-1 character has only two throws he can make!

Shouldn't a good task system provide more options than this, esecially when such an average set of stats (Stat-7, Skill-1) is in question?