Medium Ship Universe

[Vladika]

Not in the 3I. Inter-system wars aren't really allowed by the Imp Navy...

How disingenuous! Utah and Wyoming aren't allowed to fight either but they sure as hell pay taxes to support the US military... Now just what the US military does may very well border on politics, BUT, they still pay for the "common defense".

Come on now, in 3I there are border areas that are constantly having issues with neighboring Empires and the "safe" core areas ARE obligated to help pay the costs of an overall Imperial Navy.

If "safe" core areas don't pay into an overall military budget then the Spinward Marches fall sooner or latter and, like dominoes, the Empire falls.

I think there is NOTHING in canon, or logic, to support your view of non payment into the overall military budget.

 

[HG_B]

I think there is NOTHING in canon, or logic, to support your view of non payment into the overall military budget.

What ARE you going on about? Reread the comment I responded to...

 

[Ishmael]

It's the best evidence we have available and it seems to conform to Real Life pretty well.

no, it's not.... and no, it doesn't.

Actually, unless TCS and Striker's economics have been RE[/b}-canonized by MWM, it can only provide evidence for isolated TCS and Striker campaigns and ATU's.

I am very skeptical about your assertion that TCS conforms to Real Life pretty well.
Can you provide significant evidence of that?

As far as discussing future economics, the basic ideas and concepts that underpin trade abd commerce haven't changed whether talking about bonoboes in the forest, humans in ancient Assyria, or merchants in modern China. Why would they suddenly change in the future?

Nontheless, I feel that PE is a much better tool for working with budgets and policies of Traveller worlds, plus the added bonus of being canon.

 

[rancke]

It's the best evidence we have available and it seems to conform to Real Life pretty well.

no, it's not....

You know of something better?

...and no, it doesn't.

Actually, unless TCS and Striker's economics have been RE[/b}-canonized by MWM, it can only provide evidence for isolated TCS and Striker campaigns and ATU's.

Marc Miller did indeed decanonize TCS and Striker, but since he didn't provide new rules instead, they're still the best available.

I am very skeptical about your assertion that TCS conforms to Real Life pretty well.

I was mostly thinking of Striker's military budgets. As for TCS, it's not very good in itself, but it can be made to fit fairly well with Striker if one makes a few assumptions (Chiefly that the Cr500 is a simplification that corresponds to about 8% of the GWP of a world with a TL of 12).

Can you provide significant evidence of that?

Real Life military budgets cover much the same range as the Striker rules claim for Traveller military budgets. I'd challenge you to provide rules that makes for a better fit.

As far as discussing future economics, the basic ideas and concepts that underpin trade and commerce haven't changed whether talking about bonoboes in the forest, humans in ancient Assyria, or merchants in modern China. Why would they suddenly change in the future?

What changes are you talking about?

Nontheless, I feel that PE is a much better tool for working with budgets and policies of Traveller worlds, plus the added bonus of being canon.

It's been a long time since I've had a look at PE, but ISTR that the military budgets and units it produced were fairly abstract. What is the military budget of Regina according to PE? How many warships could it support and what would their stats be? What would the military budget of a world with the same UWP as Regina but independent and located far from any allies be? The same? More? How much more?


Hans

 

[aramis]

no, it's not.... and no, it doesn't.

Actually, unless TCS and Striker's economics have been RE[/b}-canonized by MWM, it can only provide evidence for isolated TCS and Striker campaigns and ATU's.

I am very skeptical about your assertion that TCS conforms to Real Life pretty well.
Can you provide significant evidence of that?

As far as discussing future economics, the basic ideas and concepts that underpin trade abd commerce haven't changed whether talking about bonoboes in the forest, humans in ancient Assyria, or merchants in modern China. Why would they suddenly change in the future?

Nontheless, I feel that PE is a much better tool for working with budgets and policies of Traveller worlds, plus the added bonus of being canon.

TCS numbers work pretty well for the GDP of the US and Europe, using a Cr1=US$1 for the year of publication, and conversion for other breakpoints. (THe problem being that the US$ was worth about 2/3 what it had been in 1977, and the adjusted GDP had grown, and I'm reasonably certain that the inflation hadn't been accounted for.)

The problem is that the curve was simply extrapolated from a few data points and extended on without thought for the consequences on the setting.

Likewise, the prices of ships are roughly, DTon by Dton, about those of commercial widebody aircraft... not those of wet-ships. Which should make them about 3 orders of magnitude higher, and thus about several (2-6) orders less common...

 

[Ishmael]

You know of something better?

Marc Miller did indeed decanonize TCS and Striker, but since he didn't provide new rules instead, they're still the best available.

yes... Pocket Empires, and yes, he did provide new rules ( or at least someone did under T4's name ..I don't recall the author's name ) which were provided in the T4 edition of Traveller.

Real Life military budgets cover much the same range as the Striker rules claim for Traveller military budgets. I'd challenge you to provide rules that makes for a better fit.

I already did, several years ago on this forum with notes on how personnel costs might relate to crew quality.
As I recall, you were pretty hung up on the numbers in the examples and appeared to ignore the actual procedures used.

What changes are you talking about?

sorry, that was a response to another post as an aside. I should have been more clear on that. My opinion is that there would be no real change in the underlying concepts of trade and commerce just because Traveller is set in the far future.

It's been a long time since I've had a look at PE, but ISTR that the military budgets and units it produced were fairly abstract.

Parts can be rather abstract in the quickie military wargame section, but there is more than enough info in the book/rules to determine values of the RU's in credits in the local world currency and to determine exchange rates to convert to Crimps; the examples do give 'crimps' values for Sylean credits during the setting's time. For 'modern Imperial Credits, I use the values for a hypothetical world with infrastructure, tech level and resources all set at 15 such as are assumed for Imperial standards. The exchange rates will NOT be linear with respect to tech level, nor should they be as the exchange rates are based on relative output per labor unit.

btw, the infrastructure value could be seen as a world's local tech manufacturing capability with the 'tech level' being imported technology. 'Culture' can be seen as a relative measure of the world's Gini value whether it is caused by unemployment, the lower wages of a service economy, direct income inequality, or a combination of all 3.

 

[Ishmael]

TCS numbers work pretty well for the GDP of the US and Europe, using a Cr1=US$1 for the year of publication, and conversion for other breakpoints. (THe problem being that the US$ was worth about 2/3 what it had been in 1977, and the adjusted GDP had grown, and I'm reasonably certain that the inflation hadn't been accounted for.)

Unfortunately, this is not planet America, nor planet Europe.
The GDP per capita in 1977 was closer to $4000 with the median income being far less.
Basing a world's income on what only 5 or 6 percent of the world's population at the time, and a relatively well paid one can only skew the numbers towards too much money available.
The world's Gini value for income distribution is around .70 I think.

Even now, the world's per capita is just a bit more than 20% of America's.

 

[HG_B]

Unfortunately, this is not planet America, nor planet Europe.

If you consider that a non-balkanized trav world of TL 7 means that the whole thing is that level it works. If you consider that 70% of that pop is TL0-5 it doesn't...

 

[aramis]

Unfortunately, this is not planet America, nor planet Europe.
The GDP per capita in 1977 was closer to $4000 with the median income being far less.
Basing a world's income on what only 5 or 6 percent of the world's population at the time, and a relatively well paid one can only skew the numbers towards too much money available.
The world's Gini value for income distribution is around .70 I think.

Even now, the world's per capita is just a bit more than 20% of America's.

Most of the world also wasn't TL7 at the time, either. Still much isn't.

 

[GrayPennell]

Taking the Fighting Ships supplement what tonnage would you set the ships to? This way they stay in the background.

Gionetti 30K to
Arakoine 50K to
Ghalalk 50K to
Azhanti High Lighting 60K to
Atlantic 75K to
Skimkish Light Carrier 29K to
Wind 75K to
Antiama 100K to
Tigresses 500K to
Plankwell 200K to
Kokirraks 200K to
Planetoid Monitor 50K to

 

[Ishmael]

Most of the world also wasn't TL7 at the time, either. Still much isn't.

Earth is capable of manufacturing tech 7 goods, so in Traveller terms, Earth is tech-7.
Tech-7 goods are commonly available to anyone who can afford them, therefore in Traveller terms, Earth is tech-7.

Are you suggesting that the effective tech level of various worlds is less, sometimes significantly less, than the UWP listed tech level whether that tech level is based on local manufacture or simple availability?
That'll throw a few monkey wrenches in the cogs of the universe.....

 

[HG_B]

Earth is capable of manufacturing tech 7 goods, so in Traveller terms, Earth is tech-7.
Tech-7 goods are commonly available to anyone who can afford them, therefore in Traveller terms, Earth is tech-7.

In Trav, EARTH is Gov type Balkanized. Which means: You have to SEPARATELY determine Law Levels, Gov Types, Tech Levels, etc.,

 

[Ishmael]

in which case, it would be a mistake to decide that the entire population produces at the same rate as the 5 or 6 percent of the total population that has the highest tech and per capita on the planet.

The actual output and per capita would end up much lower ( a quarter to a half ) such as indicated by the world per capita of around 4000 and not the US per capita of around 8000 ( circa 1977 )

However, the rules most people use don't seem to do that.

 

[HG_B]

in which case, it would be a mistake to decide that the entire population produces at the same rate as the 5 or 6 percent of the total population that has the highest tech and per capita on the planet.

For Earth THAT is what we are saying. For a NON balkanized world it works though. Remember, on EARTH when this was figured out, MANY parts of the world didn't have a high enough TL to produce any worthwhile defenses. And the TL exchange rate dilemma made it impractical to purchase from higher TL sources.

 

[Vladika]

in which case, it would be a mistake to decide that the entire population produces at the same rate as the 5 or 6 percent of the total population that has the highest tech and per capita on the planet.

The actual output and per capita would end up much lower ( a quarter to a half ) such as indicated by the world per capita of around 4000 and not the US per capita of around 8000 ( circa 1977 )

However, the rules most people use don't seem to do that.

Then most people would be in error then wouldn't they?

There are places on earth that would produce and at a decent TL. Some, though perhaps not all inclusive: North America, A few South American countries, Europe, Russia and the Ukraine, China, India and Iran.

Parts of Earth, and due to possible politics I'm leaving them unnamed, are not going to accomplish anything worthwhile no matter what (At this point in time, which was the example given).

 

[Ishmael]

TCS numbers work pretty well for the GDP of the US and Europe.....

Appently not, as aramis indicates that TCS gives per-capita numbers matching US and Europe as opposed to the entire planet. And as I recall, TCS does not change the base numbers due to balkanization, although it does require each polity to be determined such that taxation rates can be set.

Besides, government type has relatively little to do with income or wealth distribution.

Perhaps China or India should have been used as the base due to their huge populations even though their per-capita incomes at the time were somewhere near $1000.

For a non balkanized world, the numbers still would not be correct as you'd still be setting the entire world population's production as equal to the 5% with the best access to wealth and technology. This would wrongly inflate to total GWP by as much as 5 times.

 

[HG_B]

Besides, government type has relatively little to do with income or wealth distribution.

o: But funny.

 

[aramis]

Appently not, as aramis indicates that TCS gives per-capita numbers matching US and Europe as opposed to the entire planet. And as I recall, TCS does not change the base numbers due to balkanization, although it does require each polity to be determined such that taxation rates can be set.

Besides, government type has relatively little to do with income or wealth distribution.

Perhaps China or India should have been used as the base due to their huge populations even though their per-capita incomes at the time were somewhere near $1000.

For a non balkanized world, the numbers still would not be correct as you'd still be setting the entire world population's production as equal to the 5% with the best access to wealth and technology. This would wrongly inflate to total GWP by as much as 5 times.

Most worlds in Traveller are smaller economies than the US. The US is Pop 8 all by itself. China is pop 9. So is the world. Current china is probably early TL8, the US likewise. The average world in Traveller is pop 5.

 

[rancke]

The average world in Traveller is pop 5.

Though if (as I believe) most low-population worlds are outposts (in an economic if not a legal sense) and thus part of the economies of nearby worlds (like islands are part of their nation's economy), the actual average world would have a somewhat higher population.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

Most worlds in Traveller are smaller economies than the US. The US is Pop 8 all by itself. China is pop 9. So is the world. Current china is probably early TL8, the US likewise. The average world in Traveller is pop 5.

and in 2011, the US had nearly 10 times the per capita earnings of China despite both being at early tech 8.

TCS is simply a flawed system if it assigns production purely on the UWP's tech level alone. ( which it does, iirc )
The entire tech level issue has its own problems in that it is used to mean 2 different things simultaneously; common availability on one hand, and local means of production on the other.


HG_B... yes, it is kind of funny. You'd think only the eeeeevil government types as having inequality and the gooood government types as being all unicorns and ice cream. it is very funny.
but seriously, do some research into the causes of higher gini values.