"Marching In Place?" or "Wither the GT ATU?"

[Easterner9504]

The Entropy that set in somewhat describes all of GURPS since MUNCHKIN became the #1 bill payer.

I used to, in the 90's, look forward to the latest Sci-Fi adaptation, HUMANX, PRISONER CHTORR etc. I'd pick up G;T now and then but hadn't yet converted to playing it.

Never heard of G:WWII till years after it came out. That was mishandled by SJG. It should have been trumpeted in all the war game mags and at Consimworld. instead it's deader than GT. This was of course logical to me as my wargame club wanted a man-man game eventually settling on DELTA FORCE after finding Phoenix Command too complex and slow playing. we never got to get WWII later as it wasn't advertised and I never saw it in local game stores.

I thought the 'pulp' books would breath life into G:T i.e. Bounty Hunter, Granicus etc. I always wondered why no adventures done as that was GDW's hallmark.

As to JTAS News I stopped reading it over a year ago as was nothing there. JTAS itself always had an interesting nugget passed in surrounded by Cestiart XXXVIII dross way to often, Another telling features was feedback. Early JTAS had hundreds of responses, current rarely get over 30.

As with WWII, no ads or promoting series in any meaningful or consistent way I've ever seen though cut-back on printed written zines may be there too or just my out of circulation-ness!.

 

[aramis]

GURPS has a very different life cycle since it stopped being the breadwinner.

Even before that point, however, GURPS was usually "Here's the setting, have fun"...

The exceptions, specifically GURPS Fantasy, where things that could easily be adapted out, and thus the adventures could sell to people without the core and/or G:Fantasy.

GURPS Space generates a number of subordinate products, but as with all such things, if core rules sell X, then a setting core sells Y, and subordinate books for a setting sell Z, and X>Y>Z, and also, typically, each subsequent subrdinate loses a few... Z1>Z2>Z3. At some point a line needs to be dropped in order to preserve the cashflow.

It's a sad and unleasant fact of economics. Baen discovered that, on long series, by binding in a CDRom of the prior books in a series, costing them a small amount, they sell an additonal number of units as a percentage exceeding the percentage increase in cost... Hence why the Honor Harrinton Series often includes the CDrom in the newer hardcovers. New-to-series people can read the whole series by buying one of the later hardcovers... and many then go back and buy dead tree of older volumes.

But with game lines, the economies of scale don't hold that up... Ebook versions can lengthen the tail. (In some cases, enough to pay for new editions!) Several game designers are using PDF sales to pay for the initial dead tree.... John Wick uses that mode for many books now. SJG also releases the ebook first in many cases now. I got the Vorkosigan book in PDF several months before it was available in dead tree.

So from pure economics, SJG isn't going to keep producing new materials for the entire sales life of a line, especially now that they have ebooks as part of that life. Until their license sunsets, I expect they will keep the PDFs up; I expect a deal with MWM after that for CDRoms.

Mongoose likewise trickled off their B5 and Dredd d20 lines well before they withdrew them.

It's normal. At least for companies who plan to stay in business.

 

[Vargr]

Well, not all is lost. We can still hope that adventures will be released by smaller publishers using MGT.

Of course, many folks here don't like that version of the rules a lot so this presents a new problem; and limits the potential market...

 

[aramis]

Well, not all is lost. We can still hope that adventures will be released by smaller publishers using MGT.

Of course, many folks here don't like that version of the rules a lot so this presents a new problem; and limits the potential market...

Moreover, those 3rd party adventures can NOT be set in the imperium; the 3I doesn't extend into foreven.

 

[Vargr]

Moreover, those 3rd party adventures can NOT be set in the imperium; the 3I doesn't extend into foreven.

Well dang...I didn't know that. :nonono:

 

[aramis]

Well dang...I didn't know that. :nonono:

District 268 is just outside Foreven. You can grab the developers kit from mongoose to get the SRDs and the Traveller and Foreven licenses.

 

[Vargr]

District 268 is just outside Foreven. You can grab the developers kit from mongoose to get the SRDs and the Traveller and Foreven licenses.

I know where Foreven is located. What I meant was that I didn't realise Mogoose's license to 3rd parties was limited to that area.

Hmmm...I see it is quite a blank slate.

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Getting back to SJGames' continually disappointing TNS items, this week's installment nicely illustrates the small word count, "fluffy", Lifestyles of the Rich & Sylean nature of TNS over the last few years.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Blue Ghost]

Gents,

The alternate time line for SJGame's GURPS:Traveller universe came up on another thread in another forum. Rather than crap that thread, which is among my many failings, I decided to do the right things for once and start a new thread in the correct forum.

Here's some background:

• GT presents an alternate history, or ATU for the Traveller universe.
• In this alternate history, the Assassination and subsequent Rebellion never occur.
• In this alternate history, Dulinor is killed when his shuttle explodes off Sylea.
• The point of divergence between the OTU and ATU has not been revealed.

All the TNS news reports which present the events of GT's ATU can be read for free here.

On to the discussion!


Regards,
Bill

Bill, from what I understand is that GT just trudges onward as if the Rebellion never happened or was dealt with in some other form. Either way the Imperium remains, and, as an old CT grognard, I kind of like that to some extent. I think SJ Games takes the tact that the classic setting is what most classic players are familiar with, and want to stay with.

Me, I'm open to other things. A dynamic Imperium, or post Imperium, or whatever, is pretty inviting. The one thing I like about GT is that it takes a lot of the imaginative leg work for writers like me who are actively creating material.

On the other hand, it saps imaginative potential for writers like me. If I want to do a "Return to Mithril" adventure (which I started to plan and write at one time), I have to refer to the GURPS Sword World's source book. Not a bad thing, but it narrows my parameters as a writer, unless I want to step on someone's toes; i.e. that Swordy naval outpost is really a high orbit fuel depot or major trading station, or the Imperial Scouts have set up shop in the oort cloud all the while another author says there's absolutely nothing (underscore and italic) out there but a few far orbit comets.

Possible solution (permit to be a little rough shod, but I haven' read the whole thread, as I need to get back to writing and doing other things), let GT stay in a CT-ish like setting, and don't give it anymore of a story. Set the cutoff date at something like 1145, or some such.

Anyway, got to go. Just my thoughts.

 

[Whipsnade]

Bill, from what I understand is that GT just trudges onward as if the Rebellion never happened or was dealt with in some other form. Either way the Imperium remains, and, as an old CT grognard, I kind of like that to some extent. I think SJ Games takes the tact that the classic setting is what most classic players are familiar with, and want to stay with.

Blue,

That's all very true. In the GT ATU time line, Dulinor's plot and the Rebellion it caused were prevented leaving the Imperium to chuckle along. The point I've been trying to more is that a surviving Imperium doesn't need to equate a boring Imperium. SJGames has been presenting a more and more boring Imperium for GT as the years have passed.

I pointed out two storylines presented in GT; the counter-plot against Dulinor and the political instability of the Solomani Confederation, that could have been used to create interesting times for the Imperium. The troubles in Ilelish or along the Rim wouldn't have threatened the Imperium as a whole and would have still left dozens of "quiet" sectors for more "classic" campaigns.

GT's ATU time line could have been interesting instead of comatose.

Again, we don't know what constraints SJGames' TNS writers have and are working under, but it's readily apparent that their TNS items have gotten shorter and more boring over the last few years.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Blue Ghost]

DOH, that's learn me not to comment before reading the whole thread.

*ADDENDUM*; I just bought new copy of GT Sworld Worlds from SJ Games for $9 American, verse the $135 some Amazon vendor is charging for a used copy.

 

[Lycanorukke]

this week's installment nicely illustrates the small word count, "fluffy", Lifestyles of the Rich & Sylean nature of TNS over the last few years.

Oh for Christs sake, that TNS entry takes the cake.

The 'T' in TNS stands for _Traveller_, not Tabloid.

Ruminating on what the Royals had for dinner wouldn't even make it into rags like the 'Weekly World News' or 'the Sun' today, let alone as the news feed for an exclusive club with a 1MCr price tag (TAS). There's meant to be 11000 bloody planets in the Imperium, and even if SJ-Trav is locked down 'hard' and can't do anything but 'filler' pieces surely they could do something better than "<Insert Noble Here> participated in <Insert Dull Event>". It is very unlikely travelling adventurers will meet said noble and have dinner with him let alone give a damn about it.

Just spinning a few 'nothing happens' filler pieces from the top of my head. Just filler, but more than some junk which looks like it came from a Cleo magazine and would be of more interest to people who Travel the starlanes..

***

009:1128 Capital:Core
A coolant leak aboard the Tukera Liner "Radioactive Man" resulted in the Capital Down being closed and the immediate area evacuated.

Initial reports water intrusion into the liquid sodium coolant during maintenance resulted in a explosion and possible radiation release. Imperial investigators say that no contamination of the starport was detected, but are continuing their investigations.

Residents of Startown express cocnern about possible contamination. A local representative stated "Oh I'm sure the investigators say there was no contamination. I guess those guys in full HAZMAT suits with detectors were just taking in the sights of Startown and there was no reason for us to worry. Yeah right".

Traffic was redirected to alternate ports during the incident.

027:1128 Wave:Lishun
A large group of Vargr ships jumped into the system today, prompting some concern amoungst the local port authority. Consisting of 4 large liners and several smaller vessels, the group numbers at approximatly 16 starships and 9000 Vargr crew and passangers.

After being intercepted by the System defence force, the group calling itself "The Seekers of Home" handed over documents from the Imperial Ministry of culture authorizing their presence in Imperial Space. Apparently the group is travelling on a pilgrimage to Terra, the original homeworld of homeworld of Humaniti and Vargr.

After being assigned a naval escort as a 'sign of friendship' the group refuelled and jumped out system. The local starport administrator and Ministry of Culture were unavailable for comment, but anonymous sources report he said "Hoo Boy. I would love to see the expression on those Solis faces when 9000 mutts show up on their doorstep".

Travellers are advised to avoid the fleet during transit.

***

Give the characters a checkpoint they could possibly participate in (say bumping into the 9000 Vargr for 'cultural exchange', or getting caught in "Radioactive mans" fallout in Startown) rather than hearing about some noble eat some food or a ship refueling for the 500th time.

 

[Whipsnade]

Oh for Christs sake, that TNS entry takes the cake.

Lycanorukke,

Pretty freaking sad, isn't it?

When I look at the GDW TNS entries, or even SJGames' early entries, and then read the pablum that has been been posted for the last few years, I can't help but shake my head.

While every earlier TNS may not have touched upon the 5th Frontier War, Rebellion, or Hard Times story lines, they at least contained an adventure seed while these recent TNS items contain nothing but fluff.

Someone cooked a special dinner for the Imperial family? Unless someone was poisoned I don't f***ing care. Iolanthe's ship refueled at Arglebargle-IX while she enjoyed a corndog with the Grand Poobah? Again, unless the corndog was poisoned or her ship sabotaged I don't f***king care.

Why can't they give us one-off items like the two you wrote instead of a system by system recitation of Iolanthe's Terra-to-Capital AAA Trip-Ticket or the revelation that Strephon had spumoni?

Again, I don't know what strictures they're operating under but their TNS items used to be much better just a few years ago.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Lycanorukke]

While every earlier TNS may not have touched upon the 5th Frontier War, Rebellion, or Hard Times story lines, they at least contained an adventure seed while these recent TNS items contain nothing but fluff.

You have summed it up more succintly than I did with my dribbling ramble.

Adventure Seeds are the key. Give the GM's something to chew on, to weave their plot into the "History of the Imperium". The odds of the PC's every having tea and scones with the Emperor, or having anything to do with the Princess's endless refuelling stops is _zero_ (unless it is a munchkin type campaign). From the GM's point of view this is irrelevant and useless - it adds nothing to the "world" (or in this case Imperium) - so why waste the electrons writing it?

Sure GM's can conjure up their own adventures (and should), but without a framework to work in it becomes a series of "one offs" strung together rather than a campaign.

Unless the campaign is "Gourmet chefs and Gas Station Attendants".

 

[rancke]

On the other hand, it saps imaginative potential for writers like me. If I want to do a "Return to Mithril" adventure (which I started to plan and write at one time), I have to refer to the GURPS Sword World's source book. Not a bad thing, but it narrows my parameters as a writer, unless I want to step on someone's toes; i.e. that Swordy naval outpost is really a high orbit fuel depot or major trading station, or the Imperial Scouts have set up shop in the oort cloud all the while another author says there's absolutely nothing (underscore and italic) out there but a few far orbit comets.

That's entirely up to you, unless you're writing for publication. If you want to do an adventure where that Swordy naval outpost is really a high orbit fuel depot or major trading station, or the Imperial Scouts have set up shop in the oort cloud, then do so, and so what if another author says there's absolutely nothing out there but a few far orbit comets? I can assure you that you won't be stepping on any of my toes, and I suspect I could say the same on behalf of Paul Drye and Robert Prior.

The price you pay is that you can't use the neat stuff other authors write that does conform to what Sword Worlds establishes. Paul did a nifty adventure set on Mithril for JTAS Online. If your Mithril differs significantly from the official Mithril, you may not be able to use that. But that's your choice.

As Robert once said, any published material closes the door to some possibilities if you care at all about setting consistency. The only way to avoid that is to make sure no material at all is published[*] and what's the use of that? Besides, the moment you write an adventure yourself, you impose the very same kind of limitations on any further adventures, since you now have to write them to fit with the first one.

[*] Well... bland generic fits-any-setting adventures would still be a possibility.​

Hans

 

[rancke]

In the GT ATU time line, Dulinor's plot and the Rebellion it caused were prevented leaving the Imperium to chuckle along. The point I've been trying to more is that a surviving Imperium doesn't need to equate a boring Imperium. SJGames has been presenting a more and more boring Imperium for GT as the years have passed.

I think that this, and all the other complaints I've seen about how the Imperium setting is one thing and one thing only, suffers badly from the "It was raining on the Planet Mongo that day" fallacy.

The Imperium is simply too big to be any one thing. How many Traveller adventures do you know of where the PCs affected anything more than what they could see and touch, let alone the entire Imperium? Barring something I've forgotten or never seen, The Traveller Adventure has one of the most wideranging plot of all, and it covered a grand total of one (count them: one) backwater subsector. Well, I guess DGP's Grand Tour covered a lot more, but that was very episodic.

Or look at any non-cinematic adventure for any other RPG you care to mention. Howe many of them had plots that affected the fate of the entire Earth? At least in the Imperium setting PCs can affect the fate of an entire world, if only because the population of said world is no more than a few hundred people.

Admittedly, there are things you can't do inside the borders of the Imperium, but then you just have to look across the borders.

GT's ATU time line could have been interesting instead of comatose.

IMO the GTU is interesting. As interesting (exactly as interesting ) as the OTU of Classic Era. The Rebellion and the New Era were more interesting in the sense of the Old Chinese proverb, but much less interesting in terms of adventure possibilities.


Hans

 

[Blue Ghost]

My take.

That's entirely up to you, unless you're writing for publication. If you want to do an adventure where that Swordy naval outpost is really a high orbit fuel depot or major trading station, or the Imperial Scouts have set up shop in the oort cloud, then do so, and so what if another author says there's absolutely nothing out there but a few far orbit comets? I can assure you that you won't be stepping on any of my toes, and I suspect I could say the same on behalf of Paul Drye and Robert Prior.

The price you pay is that you can't use the neat stuff other authors write that does conform to what Sword Worlds establishes. Paul did a nifty adventure set on Mithril for JTAS Online. If your Mithril differs significantly from the official Mithril, you may not be able to use that. But that's your choice.

As Robert once said, any published material closes the door to some possibilities if you care at all about setting consistency. The only way to avoid that is to make sure no material at all is published[*] and what's the use of that? Besides, the moment you write an adventure yourself, you impose the very same kind of limitations on any further adventures, since you now have to write them to fit with the first one.

[*] Well... bland generic fits-any-setting adventures would still be a possibility.​

Hans

Thanks Hans

I'm about to go on a minor rant. Part of the reason I'm writing is because I can't play. And the reason I can't play isn't for lack of players, but for lack of willing players willing to let me meet with them or let me into their homes. I've actually sought out a lawyer for this because it's pretty apparent people know I suffered from depression. Words like libel, slander, false light come to mind. No joke. I'm quite serious about this. But, to the matter at hand.

Ergo, I write. And to make it worth m while the writing is for publication at some point. Fortunately the map is huge, and there's lots of themes and variations thereof that can be templated, retrofitted or otherwise made to fit with the proper writing tools. But to fit something into the Spinward Marches, everyone's favorite stomping grounds, then, depending on what I want to write, I need to cross check with authors A, B and C.

If I was writing just for me, or my currently conjectural gaming group, then I wouldn't waste my time with Traveller at all, but just go ahead and crank out a really cool novel

When adding to an established canon, from my perspective at least, one needs to adhere to certain conventions, like checking the other fellow's work

 

[Whipsnade]

How many Traveller adventures do you know of where the PCs affected anything more than what they could see and touch, let alone the entire Imperium?

Hans,

The Rebellion.

Still, the point you were trying to make is valid one, just as Lycanorukke and were is a valid one.

TNS items used to A) advance or illustrate the setting's meta-story or 2) contain an adventure seed. SJGames' earlier TNS item conformed to that model. Lately however, TNS items are little more than Lifestyles of the Noble & Sylean and an list of Iolanthe's fueling stops. The most recent interesting one I can remember involved a prison break by a noble convicted of dealing in Denuli gems. The rest have been variations on Mark Twain's The king went riding in the park wheeze from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.

[]GT's[/i] ATU is as interesting as a GM cares to make it, but SJGames TNS items haven't been helping GMs with that job for some time now.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

How many Traveller adventures do you know of where the PCs affected anything more than what they could see and touch, let alone the entire Imperium?

The Rebellion.

That's not an adventure. In fact, the Rebellion is a good example of what I mean. Most, if not all, the published adventures for the Rebellion Era have the PCs dealing with their own little corner of a vast impersonal universe, being swept along on a tide of overarching events over which they have no control whatsoever. I remember that there were several complaints about it.

TNS items used to A) advance or illustrate the setting's meta-story or 2) contain an adventure seed. SJGames' earlier TNS item conformed to that model. Lately however, TNS items are little more than Lifestyles of the Noble & Sylean and an list of Iolanthe's fueling stops. The most recent interesting one I can remember involved a prison break by a noble convicted of dealing in Denuli gems. The rest have been variations on Mark Twain's The king went riding in the park wheeze from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court.

You'll notice I haven't attempted to defend the recent trend in TNS newsbriefs. I too think they could be more interesting. I just don't think the absence of interesting news means that the entire Charted Space is anywhere near as bland as those news are. There are trillions of stories in the Naked Universe, and just because TNS doesn't tell us any of the interesting ones doesn't mean they're not there.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

I just don't think the absence of interesting news means that the entire Charted Space is anywhere near as bland as those news are.

Hans,

That's a given.

An absence of interesting TNS items does not mean there's an absence of interesting events across the Imperium or Charted Space and no one in this thread is suggesting that.

What we are discussing is the recent absence of interesting TNS items and the seemingly odd failure to follow up or expand on earlier very interesting TNS items.

Also, I've repeatedly cautioned that we shouldn't speculate about the reasons behind these seeming oddities.


Regards,
Bill