Maker Technology

[vegas]

Pretty much, not saying there isn't a lot of sophisticated materials science there, but the core technology is pretty basic, as a offshoot of offset printing.

No, that is not right. I don't know much about offset printing, but a quick google search reveals it is a mechanical process. Semiconductor manufacturing is a (mostly) photo-chemical process. It is closer to developing film than offset printing, and it has just about nothing to do with developing film outside of the there is an image that gets projected on a surface.

While I do allow for advanced workshop fabrication of a wide variety items. I also require....

I like all those ideas. The one provisio I'd point out for the purpose of verisimilitude is that humans can't assemble advance electronics by hand today. It has to be automated. In my mind it is more reasonable to let Maker assemble a farfuture IC than it is to build one. (Hence, ships have to keep a supply of chips on hand, etc.)

 

[infojunky]

No, that is not right. I don't know much about offset printing, but a quick google search reveals it is a mechanical process. Semiconductor manufacturing is a (mostly) photo-chemical process. It is closer to developing film than offset printing, and it has just about nothing to do with developing film outside of the there is an image that gets projected on a surface.

A lot of the same technologies in offset printing as in film development. The process of making a printing plate is largely photographic. While the press it self is pretty simple, the pre-press work is fairly detailed. Also not one can make IC chips using the silk screening process as well. As I said the process is fairly simple the materials on the other hand is where the real technical sophistication comes in.

With all that, it is probably more likely that one would have a selection of of pre built chips and associated electronics parts as part of the raw materials requirement.

As a game driven point, in my Post-Imperium/Long Night games Electronic Salvage is one of the big money finds for Salvage crews working the Wilds. For both profit and keeping their own ships running. The roll for finding the appropriate parts is 12+ on 2d6 with DMs for Electronics skill and number pallets of Electronic Salvage (+0 for 1, +1 for 4, +2 for 9; i.e. the square root of the number of pallets minus one). A pallet is basicly a 1.5 meter cube...

 

[vegas]

No, I still don't think that is right. Producing the "screen" (wafer masks) for semiconductor manufacturing is a technological challenge (hence their expense), but it is only one step in a challenging IC production process.

"Silkscreening" is not used to make ICs. Stencils are used to make PCBs, but by comparison, they have smallest feature sizes around .001". By contrast, semiconductor features today are more than 3 orders of magnitude smaller than that. You can't "silkscreen" to that level of precision. Not to mention you could not have something mechanically contact a wafer the way a stencil does without damaging and contaminating all the devices on it.

Anyway, this the farfuture, so I like to assume that jump, manuever, gravitics, etc. involve manipulation of atomic and smaller components and forces to achieve their effects. That means the manufacturing process can be left mysteriously complex, but I can assume it is very costly, not only terms of human and intellectual capital (designers and designs) but also in terms of physical capital (big, expensive, complex factories). This is how I explain why technology doesn't transfer easily between systems so that every planet isn't TL15. It takes a huge investment to move up a TL. If a Maker could just make anything and the only limitations are having the designs and doing some assembly, then that explanation for the lack of technology transfer between systems goes out the window.

Again, I like your gaming points - components as raw materials and electronic salvage.

 

[infojunky]

No, I still don't think that is right. Producing the "screen" (wafer masks) for semiconductor manufacturing is a technological challenge (hence their expense), but it is only one step in a challenging IC production process.

Yet, masking and ultraviolet light are still used. Note, Lithography and printing is the family business, said business is in Silicon Valley, with both friends and customers in the IC chip industry.

"Silkscreening" is not used to make ICs. Stencils are used to make PCBs, but by comparison, they have smallest feature sizes around .001". By contrast, semiconductor features today are more than 3 orders of magnitude smaller than that. You can't "silkscreen" to that level of precision. Not to mention you could not have something mechanically contact a wafer the way a stencil does without damaging and contaminating all the devices on it.

I should have been more clear, as part of my Electronics class in High School we made IC chips using the silkscreen process. They weren't great ships but they functioned. And they were on the large side as well....

Also I am not disputing with you how you want to run your games. I do it my way as I pretty much deemphasize the hardware especially the "ship's Computer" in my games. Going for a network instead a central chunk of Thinking Iron. (Note, I have changed the Ship's Computer rating to the Ship's general Electronics rating)

Again, I like your gaming points - components as raw materials and electronic salvage.

Thanks

I really try to run character centric games, so it comes down to what the characters can do with the toys rather than the toys themselves.

 

[vegas]

Yeah we are neighbors if we use the term rather loosely. I live in Silicon Valley and worked for years in the industry.

I guess this is just a semantic debate. Yes, masking and UV are used to fab ICs, but I don't think having that in common is enough to say it is "low tech" and and "offshoot of offset printing" when printing has no analog for so much of the IC manufacturing process nor the chemistry, physics, and materials requirements to build devices.

 

[infojunky]

I guess this is just a semantic debate. Yes, masking and UV are used to fab ICs, but I don't think having that in common is enough to say it is "low tech" and and "offshoot of offset printing" when printing has no analog for so much of the IC manufacturing process nor the chemistry, physics, and materials requirements to build devices.

Actually it might have helped if I had said Lithographic instead of Offset Printing. As Lithography implies the whole swath of interrelated processes.

 

[Ulsyus]

Anyway, this the farfuture, so I like to assume that jump, manuever, gravitics, etc. involve manipulation of atomic and smaller components and forces to achieve their effects. That means the manufacturing process can be left mysteriously complex, but I can assume it is very costly, not only terms of human and intellectual capital (designers and designs) but also in terms of physical capital (big, expensive, complex factories). This is how I explain why technology doesn't transfer easily between systems so that every planet isn't TL15. It takes a huge investment to move up a TL. If a Maker could just make anything and the only limitations are having the designs and doing some assembly, then that explanation for the lack of technology transfer between systems goes out the window.

So do you see a decent-enough Maker turn out the equipment necessary for a small chip production facility? Not on the sort of scale that would see mass exporting or being able to support a whole planet's industry, but sufficient to get a colony to a minimal level of self-sufficiency and able to replace essential components as they wore out?

 

[Reban]

Visual inspiration

Some videos about where Maker tech is today at TL8.1 or almost TL8.2

The Marine Corps X-Fab
This is a 1 minute video on the Expeditionary Fabrication Unit, which is a 20ft x 20ft containerized workshop with three 3D printers a scanner, computer design software system. Its envisaged that battalion level Marine Corps maintenance units will use it to create and repair equipment to “get back in the fight faster”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPVryJtW6IQ


The Next Maker Movement
This is a longish 23 minute talk from 2015 on where the DIY Maker culture is going. Is it diverging into DIY and Professional branches?
Interesting bits:
- Desktop CNC Machines that work on metals and woods and can be used to make molds for injection casting.
- Printing living cells and conductive inks (to make circuits).
- Reality capture: Scan and measure at high resolution using drones and recreate using CAD/CAM software.
- Cheap plug in chips, sensors and other electronics that can be used for 3D printing or CNC-ing or integrated into the objects that are made like 3D printed drones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKDv37fHZu0


3D Printer, CNC, Laser Engraver in one machine
Here's a 10 minute video about three machines in one, a 3D printer, CNC and Laser Engraver. The way it works is that there are three swapable heads. Its a desktop version which can only handle relatively soft materials, but consider it as an experimental version at TL8.1 of a base TL11 Maker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmD4kwz3XV8


The US Navy's first 3D printed submarine
This one is a bit of tabloid click bait. First its actually a swimmer delivery vehicle for special forces, and second its only a proof of concept and won't even get wet. But its a good example of how to build a larger vehicle. Imagine a Maker building the hull and internal equipment with humans or robots undertaking the assembly. And remember what professor Farnsworth said about spaceships and submarines....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UY15kDVUek


Maker Coffee Maker
And for all of you who wanted to have a Maker produce coffee, here's how

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzfXVH59LjM

EDIT: Changed from mid TL8 to TL8.1/TL8.2

 

[mike wightman]

We are not mid TL8. :devil:

We have yet to achieve laser carbines, fusion power or null grav modules.

That said I really like your video research

If that is what can be done now than what will be achievable in a thousand years time, let alone in the 57th century.

 

[Reban]

Fair point. Amended to TL8.1

 

[vegas]

So do you see a decent-enough Maker turn out the equipment necessary for a small chip production facility? Not on the sort of scale that would see mass exporting or being able to support a whole planet's industry, but sufficient to get a colony to a minimal level of self-sufficiency and able to replace essential components as they wore out?

I know infojunky and I just had a discussion on real world semiconductor manufacturing, but I don't want to get too focused on "chips" as these are farfuture electronic devices and not just today's ICs.

Anyway, I would say a decent-enough Makers could certainly be used to build the manufacturing equipment necessary for TL7/8 semiconductor manufacturing. Putting together an end-to-end production facility is still going to be big undertaking, even for small-scale production. You need equipment, supplies and facilities for: pure raw materials, chemical handling, clean room environment, hazardous waste disposal, silicon (or other substrate) fabrication, wafer fabrication, package fabrication, IC assembly, IC test, PCB fabrication, PCB assembly, system test. A small colony isn't likely to try to do all this stuff. It is a lot of steps, a lot equipment, a lot of different expertise that have to come together. It is a lot of work for small returns if it is just for internal use if buying stuff is an alternative.

In any event, using the TL8 devices produced in such a factory as an input, you could then use your maker to build a TL9 end-to-end factory. Rinse and repeat on up to 1 TL below whatever your Maker is built at (my own Maker-limitation ruling idea.)

The point is, technology transfer has to be hard, otherwise it would be common. My way to make it hard is to make it expensive in terms of physical and human capital, and I wouldn't let Makers short-circuit that.

(Hat tip to Mike who has a different explanation for why tech transfer is hard in the face of Makers - Imperial jackboots don't let Makers get used for unauthorized builds. That is another approach I suppose, but I'm not sure I'm fond of that setting idea.)

 

[Ulsyus]

The point is, technology transfer has to be hard, otherwise it would be common. My way to make it hard is to make it expensive in terms of physical and human capital, and I wouldn't let Makers short-circuit that.

(Hat tip to Mike who has a different explanation for why tech transfer is hard in the face of Makers - Imperial jackboots don't let Makers get used for unauthorized builds. That is another approach I suppose, but I'm not sure I'm fond of that setting idea.)

If we go with the premise that a Maker is a custom-design device, able to build one-offs that are high quality but with their price offset by the fact that you actually get what would otherwise be a rare commodity, why couldn't they be considered to be able to build components that could be eventually turned into a factory? The issue could be what's the cost, leading to normal tooling processes possibly being cheaper.

There'd be real advantages to having a Maker in the tool shop of a starship, as it could manufacture essential components (within limitations, depending on TL and YTU), but maybe not so for trying to uplift the TL of an entire world. Not forgetting, of course, that providing the equipment would be only one part of a lengthy process of raising a TL.

 

[vegas]

To be clear, I wrote you could have your Maker build a factory if you wanted. There are no rules given for this stuff so we're just making it up. I just think that to be consistent with the setting, technology transfer should not be easy. If all you need to do to build a TL15 factory is ship in a TL15 Maker, then every system would do it, so we probably don't want it to work that way for consistency.

Just as an aside, real world semiconductor fabs create features that are 1,000 to 10,000 times smaller than what a 3D printer can achieve. We can assume in the farfuture that Makers get more accurate than today's printers, but shouldn't we also assume that the dedicated factories get more accurate too?

Also, I don't imagine that that the advanced electronics that make technologies like gravitics, jump, etc. are build just by assembling ordinary electronic components into novel circuits, rather I assume they are requiring manipulation at the atomic and subatomic level and a totally different kind of "circuitry" than what today's electrical engineers design, and that this farfuture stuff is possible to build only in these advanced factories.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

 

[SanDragon]

Maybe, but we're already pushing the limits of doped silicon as it is. There is signal bleed due to how close the circuitry is to itself.

Also, as an example, a silicon wafer can go through a factory at least 6 times to lay on 6 sets of circuits, and interconnecting them, in at least 8,000 steps.

 

[Ulsyus]

Maybe, but we're already pushing the limits of doped silicon as it is. There is signal bleed due to how close the circuitry is to itself.

Also, as an example, a silicon wafer can go through a factory at least 6 times to lay on 6 sets of circuits, and interconnecting them, in at least 8,000 steps.

So the next step is going to be a TL8 to TL9 shift in what we use and how it's going to be produced?

 

[coliver988]

So the next step is going to be a TL8 to TL9 shift in what we use and how it's going to be produced?

Moore's Law (basically doubling power every 18 months) has been around for decades, and the last decade or so they keep saying it can't go on. Then they come up with something new and it does.

Anyway, this link shows some ways of where transistors may go: CNET

Along these lines, a 400GB microSD card was just released. A card that will fit in your phone with almost half a terabyte of storage...

Now I'll go with Makers having essentially infinite memory at least, but I do have some reservations on just what they can actually make. So far I am liking some of the constraints and abilities posted in this thread.

"I need more guns! Print them up!"
"But sir, we've run out of chemical X which is used for the barrels"
"Just use chemical Y. That will work"
<during the gunfight later that day>
"Sir, we've lost half our marines - the barrels keep exploding on the guns!"

 

[Original_Carl]

Unfortunately, Moore's Law is over.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601441/moores-law-is-dead-now-what/

 

[vegas]

If gravitics and jump drives are built using CMOS transistors, then perhaps the fundamental limits of CMOS might limit industrial electronics production.

However, if you assume those farfuture technologies are built using as yet unknown technologies and components, the Moore's law's fate isn't particularly relevant to the setting.

 

[Timerover51]

If gravitics and jump drives are built using CMOS transistors, then perhaps the fundamental limits of CMOS might limit industrial electronics production.

However, if you assume those farfuture technologies are built using as yet unknown technologies and components, the Moore's law's fate isn't particularly relevant to the setting.

Arthur C. Clarke has stated that "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Within the context of Traveller, this is assumed to
occur at about tech level G and above.

From Supplement 3: The Spinward Marches, page 39. Tech Level G is Tech Level 16.

 

[vegas]

I don't think I get your point, Timerover.