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Maker Technology

If you want, but are there many advanced systems that can be bought now that come fully stocked? Cartridges for a printer/plotter, okay. Sticks for a hot glue gun, no worries. But sufficient advanced materials to be able to build a car? That could require a lot of different materials, so I'm not sure I'd be so generous to my players by giving that to them freely.

Good point, but I was going for simplicity. Although if you follow the inkjet printer model the cost of the printer is negligible compared to the cost of replacement cartridges.


If the technology is widely available, the availability of the materials may depend on each world separately. High Law Levels? Material and tech restricted. Lower TLs? Now it's restricted to the starport.

Good points. Law level definitely restricts access.


So maybe you're right and they pop in now at TL11. I think I may be inclined to go with 12 or 13, so that at TL9 comes the earliest experimental units that combine all the components Aramis mentioned.

Fitting it to Cleon I's use of Makers to disseminate FusionPlus as per Agent of the Imperium makes TL11 more likely.

Why? Especially if we want to give the Engineer character plenty of geeky tech action installing and connecting up the Reghus Model VII Heavy Ship Components Maker in the cargo hold of their ship...

This is fairly standard for large ship components in T5. Weapons and sensor mounts are self powered, back-up power is provided by FusionPlus modules etc.

I hate explositions, but wouldn't it be more likely to only have that sort of failure on a particularly bad flux roll after failing the operating the thing by a massive margin on a dice roll?

The explosive fail-safe is specifically mentioned in Agent of the Imperium: "Deep within every FusionPlus were multiple layers of concealed encrypted control systems: they determined efficiency, they prevented misuse, they could trigger early shutdown, or even explosive self-destructs." However you're right, blowing-up is the last resort option.
 
Another thing to consider is that maker and fusion+ technology are propriety Imperial property.

It may well be only Imperial nobles are allowed to oversee their use and is thus the source of their wealth and power.

Megacorporation may well only have access due to the nobility being shareholders and licencing the tech to the megacorporations.
 
Another thing to consider is that maker and fusion+ technology are propriety Imperial property.

It may well be only Imperial nobles are allowed to oversee their use and is thus the source of their wealth and power.

Megacorporation may well only have access due to the nobility being shareholders and licencing the tech to the megacorporations.

Funny, I don't see them listed on the Law Level tables. What if I decided to import mine from the Vargr, Aslan, or Solomani?
 
Another bit mentioned in Agent when they are scrubbing a world is that production of the impactors is limited by a supply 'flash chips' for the control systems while the rest can be cranked out of the maker.

I'm guessing these are blank programmable CPUs (a bit like flash memory) which get programmed but not created by a maker. So a maker can't etch things like processors or complex circuitry but only use a supply of blanks. This would also let you restrict F+. The F+ maker design cant use blanks (the circuit design is not included in the template) but has to have a supply of black box chips to run them. What more F+? Buy more chips from your Friendly Imperium.

Another one is that a maker is an all purpose device - and generic stuff is never really as good as things made in purpose built factories. Perhaps this is what 'Generic' is on the Tech staging tables? More bulky, poorer quality, but a lot cheaper. It was spat out by a maker as opposed to a dedicated facility.
 
Funny, I don't see them listed on the Law Level tables. What if I decided to import mine from the Vargr, Aslan, or Solomani?
What happens when you try and take some of the mobs action?

Put another way a visit from the subsector duke's household troops, if that doesn't work the IN interdicts your world and begins playing drop the rock...
 
Another bit mentioned in Agent when they are scrubbing a world is that production of the impactors is limited by a supply 'flash chips' for the control systems while the rest can be cranked out of the maker.
I put this down to a raw material and time to make issue.
Chips above our TL are likely to require rare elements or even unique synthetic isotopes of those rare elements. Only specialist fabrication plants would have a supply of those.
So it is more convenient for ships to carry spare blank chips than the raw materials to manufacture them.
Also consider battle damage.
Computer chips are likely to be damaged and you would want access to replacement parts immediately, not wait for the makers to produce them (assuming the maker survives the combat damage :)).
 
Computer chips are likely to be damaged and you would want access to replacement parts immediately, not wait for the makers to produce them (assuming the maker survives the combat damage :)).

This brings up another thing - how big is a maker? Is it a fridge size box John Citizen plugs into the wall and hums away quietly which a monkey can use? Or is it a shipping container sized bit of machinery that shrieks and howls when operating, guzzles power, and requires careful operation and care rather than 'Push the button'?

Would a starship have a maker in every compartment, or just one in a central location (Stores or Engineering)?

I know I wouldn't trust 'John Citizen' with an expensive CAD/CAM system - even simple 3D printing today requires a bit of knowledge of what you are actually doing, even if just using a premade template.
 
It may well be only Imperial nobles are allowed to oversee their use and is thus the source of their wealth and power.

Megacorporation may well only have access due to the nobility being shareholders and licencing the tech to the megacorporations.

There's a definite hint that newly created nobles on newly integrated worlds get Makers and the Control Codes for them.

Imperial services like the Navy and Scouts have them aboard their ships.

The question is, in the established interior of the Imperium where the nobles have been around for a long time, do they still have exclusive control of the Makers?

My idea is probably not, but maybe they do have the Control Codes for FusionPlus and other exclusive Templates.

Funny, I don't see them listed on the Law Level tables. What if I decided to import mine from the Vargr, Aslan, or Solomani?

Thats the problem, there are no rules for them so far.

The objects produced by a Maker are covered by Law Levels so maybe publicly accessable Makers have a Law Level cap on what they can produce.

If you import a Maker will it have Templates and will the objects produced comply with Imperial Standards?

Another one is that a maker is an all purpose device - and generic stuff is never really as good as things made in purpose built factories. Perhaps this is what 'Generic' is on the Tech staging tables? More bulky, poorer quality, but a lot cheaper. It was spat out by a maker as opposed to a dedicated facility.

Thats a good point and a good way of limiting Makers for game balance. It doesn't stop someone designing their own Templates or MegaCorps selling brandname templates with different Stage Effects either.

This brings up another thing - how big is a maker? Is it a fridge size box John Citizen plugs into the wall and hums away quietly which a monkey can use? Or is it a shipping container sized bit of machinery that shrieks and howls when operating, guzzles power, and requires careful operation and care rather than 'Push the button'?

Would a starship have a maker in every compartment, or just one in a central location (Stores or Engineering)?

I know I wouldn't trust 'John Citizen' with an expensive CAD/CAM system - even simple 3D printing today requires a bit of knowledge of what you are actually doing, even if just using a premade template.

See my post on "Setting some limits" above. I'm saying that a Maker could produce something half its volume and that a Makershop costs MCr1 per ton.

If John Citizen has the Designer Skill then he can create new Templates. If not then he can alter certain parameters. The agent in AoI orders a fligh jacket in his size that says Agent on the back. Things like colour, fit etc. should be easy. Things that alter QREBS values probably require a use of the Designer Skill.
 
Designer and Craftsman Skills

This topic is suddenly interesting to me because it validates the Designer Skill as well as the Craftsman Skill that cropped up on my crew of the Gatherer. Both males aboard the Surveyor and Trader ship have those Skills. Perhaps designers and craftsmen work together to provide the guidance to allow a Maker to go beyond Generic Stage items? If so, then this greatly increases the demand for those Skills as well as other Trades and the Sciences.

Seruean Professor Zannun designed the Gatherer's Improved Stage Collector Drive-2 at TL-15, (normally TL-14 per How Drives Work chapter). I have yet to input a Maker into the story. But this thread is inspiring me. Thanks for the contributions, all.

From the orbital Workshops high above Roethoeegaeaegz, this is the Pakkrat.
 
What happens when you try and take some of the mobs action?

Put another way a visit from the subsector duke's household troops, if that doesn't work the IN interdicts your world and begins playing drop the rock...

Well, see, this is my problem.

I haven't read T5 or the book, but, simply, I find the premise of Imperial control over these devices pretty much absurd.

I can appreciate how early on fusion power was a game changer and the society that develops it first can get a leg up, quickly. But, in the end, that's not going to last. Fusion tech will no remain exclusive.

The universe of CT has always has the ubiquity of fusion as a back drop axiom. Fusion power is cheap, reliable, and everywhere.

Similarly, with Maker tech, sure, early on, powerful stuff. But 100 years later? No. That there's some Keeper of the Makers preventing its wide spread adoption? That's my point about the Vargr or Aslan versions, or Zhodani. You think these folks will not have this technology? And why shouldn't they export it?

Do you really think Imperial Jack Booted Thugs, the same Imperium that essentially can give a rip about what happens dirtside as long as the taxes are paid, are going to go kicking doors on illegal Makerspaces running with unregister fusion power plants?? REALLY!??

That's the CT world, the Imperium that we've been playing in this whole time, and, gosh, just didn't realize it??

Sorry, that's nonsense.
 
It may well be only Imperial nobles are allowed to oversee their use and is thus the source of their wealth and power.

Megacorporation may well only have access due to the nobility being shareholders and licencing the tech to the megacorporations.

That's a fair idea, but as mentioned by Whartung, control of the units themselves seems less than likely. What they could control however are the templates that make it easier to Make things as Reban pointed out. Want to do it yourself? Fine, but you'll need to be skilled in all of the disciplines needed to produce each part it Makes, as well as having Designer (nice idea Pakkrat) to program and operate the Maker.

I haven't read T5 or the book, but, simply, I find the premise of Imperial control over these devices pretty much absurd.

I can appreciate how early on fusion power was a game changer and the society that develops it first can get a leg up, quickly. But, in the end, that's not going to last. Fusion tech will no remain exclusive.

The universe of CT has always has the ubiquity of fusion as a back drop axiom. Fusion power is cheap, reliable, and everywhere.

Similarly, with Maker tech, sure, early on, powerful stuff. But 100 years later? No. That there's some Keeper of the Makers preventing its wide spread adoption? That's my point about the Vargr or Aslan versions, or Zhodani. You think these folks will not have this technology? And why shouldn't they export it?

Has anyone thought of doing this anyway? If so, how did you justify it in YTU functionally/legally?
 
Well, see, this is my problem.

I haven't read T5 or the book, but, simply, I find the premise of Imperial control over these devices pretty much absurd.
Well unfortunately the novel is pretty explicit about these things. :)

Fusion+ as propriety Cleon Industries/Imperial technology is canon fact.

The Imperium making nobles on distant planets by 'gifting' fusion+/maker tech is canon fact.

The IN interdicting worlds in order to oppress worlds is canon fact.

Agent of the Imperium gives a picture of the Imperium that is very different to the DGP vision but pretty close to the proto-traveller version. :CoW:
I can appreciate how early on fusion power was a game changer and the society that develops it first can get a leg up, quickly. But, in the end, that's not going to last. Fusion tech will no remain exclusive.
Not fusion, fusion+, Within the Imperium the Imperium has a monopoly on fusion+ technology.

The universe of CT has always has the ubiquity of fusion as a back drop axiom. Fusion power is cheap, reliable, and everywhere.
Yup, and within the Imperium if you want tio use fusion+ you have to do a deal with the Imperium, you will find this seeping into the 3I in T4 material, by T5 and AotI it is explicit. :)

Similarly, with Maker tech, sure, early on, powerful stuff. But 100 years later? No. That there's some Keeper of the Makers preventing its wide spread adoption? That's my point about the Vargr or Aslan versions, or Zhodani. You think these folks will not have this technology? And why shouldn't they export it?
Because the Imperium will not allow them to trade their version of this technology within the Imperium, that's the sort of thing that governments do.
Can't discuss this much further without breaking board rules about real world politics , trade and tariffs.

Do you really think Imperial Jack Booted Thugs, the same Imperium that essentially can give a rip about what happens dirtside as long as the taxes are paid, are going to go kicking doors on illegal Makerspaces running with unregister fusion power plants?? REALLY!??
Yup, that's exactly what I think. Anyone who threatens the Imperial monopoly and their megacorporation shareholders is going to have the IN to deal with.

That's the CT world, the Imperium that we've been playing in this whole time, and, gosh, just didn't realize it??
Go read Adventure 1 again, after reading AotI... :devil:

Sorry, that's nonsense.
Fair enough.
 
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If John Citizen has the Designer Skill then he can create new Templates. If not then he can alter certain parameters. The agent in AoI orders a fligh jacket in his size that says Agent on the back. Things like colour, fit etc. should be easy. Things that alter QREBS values probably require a use of the Designer Skill.

It also mention that he once or twice got a jacket with "Ajent". Guess the operator failed his Design roll.

Still it opens amusing possibilities for PC's 'making' things. They forget to set the 'user options'. The replacement Vacc suit they churn out is fluorescent pink with rhinestone sequins - they didn't bother setting the colour selection in one of those annoying sub-sub-menus.

Another option may be the 'Maker' quietly builds its serial number into the product, in addition to the design template number. So when the authorities capture some of those cheap weapons flooding the market, they can trace it back to the maker in question and ask 'Pointed Questions' from the owner.
 
While I am not a T5 person, I think I would go with some formulas, and use large scale maker situations like shipyards to inform them.

I also don't want players to go nuts undercutting trade mechanics or churning out FGMPs.

So, a simple cost/space rule set of principles.

I like the posted idea of ratio of maker size to object, but I think I would reverse it. 2x the maker size to the object. So making an air/raft would require an 8-ton maker.

Specialization vs. general purpose, and cost is factored in consumables making it. Call it twice as much to make by general purpose makers, and half as much for specialized.

Time to make is credit cost x minutes divided by maker size ratio to made object.

Cost per ton of maker is 2x the total cost of objects to be made, putting a sunk capital cost AND a high end of complexity/desirability into any maker buy.

Higher TL maker obviously more desirable in most cases should cost more. Divide TL by 10 and multiply both maker buy and consumables.

Makers build to their TL standards and so a TL7 rifle with TL7 features made by a TL15 maker is going to be the most accurate, durable, top-notch version possible, but it's also going to cost the material cost of TL15.
 
Alright, so let's make a 1 ton TL14 armory maker for a merc company, GP and specialized.

I'm going to use either CT prices or made-up examples just for illustration.

Our 1 ton armory maker could be set to just make something like Gauss or Laser or various missile guns.

Let's say our high end for weapons to be made is CR 10000.

The maker would then cost Cr20000 base, with a TL modifier of 1.4 it comes in at Cr28000.

If it is general purpose it can do all sorts of useful builds and not just for guns, but the flexibility costs- so a Cr1000 rifle will cost 2000*1.4=Cr2800 to make, a Cr 10000 armor suit comes in at Cr28000, etc.

If the armory maker was instead purchased as a GunMaker only, the consumables will cost half- so 500*1.4 for Cr700, armor suit at Cr7000, etc.

However, the merc company best consider that this maker in either configuration is going to require TL14 consumables. Those may be hard and costly to come by in a war, especially if space superiority is not maintained. Local supply TL should be strongly considered for 'breakable' long term situations.

As to time to make, the average rifle is pretty small compared to 1 ton, or 1/2 ton since the ratio is 2:1 maker to object. For example purposes let's call it a 80:1 ratio.

Let's use the consumable cost as time baseline, reflecting the speed with which a GunMaker could operate vs. GP machine.

The GP armory maker would take a Cr2800 rifle, 2800 minutes divided by 80, that's 35 minutes. The GunMaker version makes the Cr700 divided by 80, for 8.75 minutes.

Ok, apply this to the Cr10000 armor suit and assume an ArmorMaker version for the specialized example. The armor suit we'll say is 4x the bulk of the rifle, so our maker ratio modifier is 20:1.

Cr28000 running through the GP maker is 28000 minutes divided by 20, that's 23.5 hours. The ArmorMaker Cr7000 version works out to 350 minutes, just shy of 6 hours.

For giggles, let's spec a maker capable of making Cr300000 FGMPs, 4x the bulk of the rifle so 20:1 maker speed ratio.

That's 600000 x 1. 4 for Cr840000 up front. GP version makes FGMPs at consumables cost Cr840000 per, 840000/20 is 700 hours, or 29 days. GunMaker version is 150000*1. 4 for a cost of Cr210000 per, maker time is 7.3 days.

So right away we see that you end up with a logistical cost of TL and higher costs of supply and time for space cost of having general purpose makers. The more expensive the item, the more likely it needs to be done by a specialist maker.

Also, to get reasonable speed of time, makers will need to be several times the size of what player characters would reasonably have on a ship or a base. Specialized factories are still a thing.


Don't forget to charge dtons in addition to consumable costs. Figure something like 2:1 supply tons to made item tons for dense items like guns or parts, 1:1 for items with a lot of empty space like vehicles.
 
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Thinking about the supply of materials - can a maker act as an 'unmaker'?

You print out your 'Pirate Punisher' gun and shoot up the space pirates. Once finished, can you take said gun and feed it back to the maker which then disassembles it for raw materials (with some losses of course) thus 'recharging' the makers material stores?

If you could feed captured materials to the maker to disassemble then you could hook 2 makers back to back - one to 'eat' materials and one to use them. You take the enemy's guns, cheap armour, food packs, etc from the last firefight, 'unmake' them and proceed to print out replacement supplies for your troops.

Or would the maker require specially prepared raw materials instead?
 
Let's do a 20 ton TL10 vehicle maker GP and specialized for an explorer or colony base.

TL10 is 1:1 for TL modifier costs, so that's not a factor.

This has been sized for making the classic 10 ton ATV/AFV.

So using CT ATV costs, that's Cr60000 per ton for 1.2 MCr total.

GP version costs Cr60000 in consumables and 60000 minutes in maker time, or 41 days.

VehicleMaker version costs Cr15000 and 15000 minutes in maker time, or 10.4 days.

An AFV version costs Cr140000 per ton, 2.8 MCr.

GP AFV costs Cr140000 per, 97 days, or VehicleMaker, Cr35000 per, 24 days.

Alright, let's repurpose this for air/raft making.

Air/rafts cost Cr600000 in CT, so for a 20 ton maker that's 1.2MCr per ton and 24MCr for the whole maker.

1.2 million minutes for the GP version for 833 days, VehicleMaker version 300000 minutes for 208 days.


Fortunately, this maker is 2.5 times the required size, so that divides maker time by 2.5. So GP is 333 days, VehicleMaker is 83 days.

That initial cost is pretty steep, lets size it down to air/raft making size. 8 tons, 9.6 MCr.

But then there is a time cost. MCr 1.2 and minutes for the GP version for 833 days, Cr300000 for 208 days.

SO some more additional caveats come up with this cost model-


  • The more complex/costly or bigger the item the maker is to make, the more sunk capital costs and the more time it takes to make larger equipment
  • To save time to make large items and therefore save on sophont/robot labor overhead, the makers must be huge and represent titanic costs, which is why only large organizations can afford to buy and operate them
  • The classic starship build times don't look so silly when shipyards cannot afford to build one drive-a-day makers, trading time for capital cost
  • Makers need to be sized for a specific role, general purpose to save having multiple specialized maker, but right-sized XMakers when it makes sense
  • It is far cheaper beyond a certain point to ship complete vehicles or other expensive items rather then have a maker able to make them
  • Most general purpose makers will be just a few tons for personal items and miscellaneous parts. Most larger specialized makers will be for parts alone, and several times the part size for rapid production.
  • This model of maker pricing may not please some, but it is intended to rein in misuse of makers and make hard resource choices.
 
Thinking about the supply of materials - can a maker act as an 'unmaker'?

You print out your 'Pirate Punisher' gun and shoot up the space pirates. Once finished, can you take said gun and feed it back to the maker which then disassembles it for raw materials (with some losses of course) thus 'recharging' the makers material stores?

If you could feed captured materials to the maker to disassemble then you could hook 2 makers back to back - one to 'eat' materials and one to use them. You take the enemy's guns, cheap armour, food packs, etc from the last firefight, 'unmake' them and proceed to print out replacement supplies for your troops.

Or would the maker require specially prepared raw materials instead?

I'd rule you need a specialized 'unmaker' salvager machine.

A recycler on steroids.
 
If such technology exists, then there is really no basis for interstellar trade in manufactured goods, just raw materials and people. Why import a tractor at high cost when with the local Maker, you produce it yourself.
I think JTAS4 does a good job answering that concern (without needing to know about Makers specifically):
F Chadwick in JTAS 4 said:
A number of people have argued that there will be no basis for trade as we know it in the far future... Manufactured goods from its own tech level can be produced more efficiently locally....

The difficulty with this argument is that it rests on the assumption that trade is the result of [today's] primitive manufacturing techniques, which it is not. Trade is the result of economic imbalance. The development of improved manufacturing, synthesizing, and energy generating processes will not spell the end of trade, so long as the rate of technological development is not evenly distributed.
Frank goes on, but what he is describing is basic economic trade theory. It doesn't matter if one economy is better than another at everything, there can still be gains from trade to both economies if each focuses on its comparative advantage.

As the article continues, it gives a model for a key driver of trade and financial equilibrium between unequal economies: exchange rates. I think GT has a better exchange rate model than CT, but whichever you prefer, if the cost/technology disadvantages of one economy can be overcome with a lower exchange rate, then you have a financial reason for trade.

And remember also, that Imperium members have to pay taxes, and those taxes are going to be in Imperium credits not local currency. The Imperium doesn't want local goods. It wants to build its navy, support extravagant nobles in the core, etc. Oh sure, they'll take the local starport and maybe some real property for some fiefs, but sooner or later, they want those taxes paid in Imperial Credits, and the only way a world can get them is to trade for them - exporting goods, attracting tourists, or sending out labor that repatriates cash. In most cases exporting goods is going to get subsidized to generate the needed Credits.

Question for aramis:
aramis said:
Makers combine 3D printing, automated machining system, an advanced polymer chem lab, and an automated assembly plant. In a box.
Is that from AotI or is that your own vision of the things?

Some of my own ideas about Makers.
Since there are no rules for Makers, but there are lots of rules for equipment and their prices, I think we could start by assuming (as Mike suggested) that cost of using a Makers is at least what it would be to buy at the list price.

But probably an even more sensible approach is that anything made by a Makers is more costly than list price, and that things sold in commerce are built by lower cost, mass production equipment, and Makers are generaly reserved for prototyping and emergency or convenience builds away from home where they are worth the higher expense. And of course providing a few higher TL items than might otherwise be available on a world, but again, this has to be fairly limited, as otherwise all worlds would quickly converge to the same tech level, and they don't.

I'd probably put more constraints on what Makers can build than I'm reading here. For one, Makers build items at 1 TL below their own, e.g. a TL15 Maker makes up to TL14 devices. Not sure what AotI says about that, but it seems a reasonable constraint.

I'd also emphasize Reban's point
- Makers require materials. I doubt you can feed an asteroid in one end and get a FusionPlus out the other end. Processed materials, specialist components, and complete sub-assemblies are probably required (and therefore generate trade in those parts).
I'd say things like passive electronics might be built by Makers, but the certain components (quantum semiconductors, or insert your own fav futuretech component here) cannot be made with a Maker because it is not precise enough or otherwise does not have the capabilities to fab those items.

Other ways to distinguish Maker goods would be to make them lower quality or reliability or have lower production yield rates or worse early-life failure rates, etc.

One way or another, the economics of 3I have to be more or less the same with the introduction of Makers, because the prices we see in T5 more or less reflect that. They are just a little chrome that tells us how things happen. They don't radically change the economic landscape.
 
As to time to make, the average rifle is pretty small compared to 1 ton, or 1/2 ton since the ratio is 2:1 maker to object. For example purposes let's call it a 80:1 ratio.

Let's use the consumable cost as time baseline, reflecting the speed with which a GunMaker could operate vs. GP machine.

My gut tells me allowing a Maker to make things really fast is going to introduce game imbalance. As a Ref I'd say the Maker takes approximately the same amount of time that standard manufacturing does.

There are multiple operations and components in a gun so it takes time. I don't want to see a situation where a merc company arrives on planet and half an hour later they're all equipped with smallarms.

Thinking about the supply of materials - can a maker act as an 'unmaker'?

SNIP

Or would the maker require specially prepared raw materials instead?

I think if you apply common sense that'd be a no to unmaking.

Here's why; unmaking requires energy input to break down and reform materials. It requires purification to remove contaminants or non-recyclables. That requires extra plant/hardware.

Even if your recycling is really good is it good enough to form the components of a FusionPlus module that contain huge energies? Or even the barrel of a rifle?

Requiring a store of pure base materials is probably cheaper and more effective.

Here's the other thing... as a Ref I don't want to deal with Players that come to me and say "We want to unmake our scout/courier and remake it as lanthanum jewelry. We're going to settle down and live off the profits". :nonono:


One more point. There is a version of what you're talking about in the T5 Equipment section; the Molecular Disassembler, its TL23 and uses grey goo nano swarms to take materials apart and reassembles them. Thats way beyond the TL11 style Makers we're talking about.
 
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