Maker Technology

[Ulsyus]

There was an interesting discussion recently that touched on the possibilities and difficulties of constructing major items with Maker technology.

This article on developing options for construction in space was pretty timely in that regard. The players in my last campaign didn't have a need for a Maker to build items for repair or construction. Has anyone else had this play any sort of pivotal, crucial or even just ongoing part in their games?

 

[mike wightman]

Makers became a real thing in my game when I began using the T5 rules for them 'off screen' to modify equipment.
A couple of my players asked where the 'makers' are on board ship for fabricating spare parts and the like.

Never one to look a gift horse in the mouth I made up that their ship machine shop included a 'maker' that could fabricate replacement parts and manufacture small equipment items - but only if they were of a TL equal to or less than the maker. they possessed the templates to make or modify the stuff, and they have the requisite raw materials.

We thought of them as high tech 3d printers+cad/cam and the like.

I began rewarding them in game with new templates, some acquired legally, some acquired by less than legal methods and finally I allowed them to deconstruct equipment they picked up on adventures - although there is the potential for the item to be scanned (and destroyed in the process) but with a chance that the 'maker' could not 'learn' the new pattern.

From these humble beginnings larger 'makers' became a thing at manufacturing centres, starports and the like - vehicle makers, ship makers etc.

I have to stress that they are not Star Trek replicators - the correct raw materials must be available and the items may take a long time to fabricate and they require a lot of energy and computer power.

We have had scenarios built around asteroid prospecting to try and find rare elements needed to fabricate replacements for damaged/destroyed parts (a result of ship combat boiling stuff off into space), scavenging wrecks for raw materials and trading with low TL natives for pretty stones that contain needed elements...

I saw an interesting programme recently that pointed out that we have less than ten years left at current usage rates of many of the rare earths used in constructing mobile phones/tablets and the like.

 

[Timerover51]

Makers became a real thing in my game when I began using the T5 rules for them 'off screen' to modify equipment.
A couple of my players asked where the 'makers' are on board ship for fabricating spare parts and the like.

Never one to look a gift horse in the mouth I made up that their ship machine shop included a 'maker' that could fabricate replacement parts and manufacture small equipment items - but only if they were of a TL equal to or less than the maker. they possessed the templates to make or modify the stuff, and they have the requisite raw materials.

We thought of them as high tech 3d printers+cad/cam and the like.

I began rewarding them in game with new templates, some acquired legally, some acquired by less than legal methods and finally I allowed them to deconstruct equipment they picked up on adventures - although there is the potential for the item to be scanned (and destroyed in the process) but with a chance that the 'maker' could not 'learn' the new pattern.

From these humble beginnings larger 'makers' became a thing at manufacturing centres, starports and the like - vehicle makers, ship makers etc.

I have to stress that they are not Star Trek replicators - the correct raw materials must be available and the items may take a long time to fabricate and they require a lot of energy and computer power.

We have had scenarios built around asteroid prospecting to try and find rare elements needed to fabricate replacements for damaged/destroyed parts (a result of ship combat boiling stuff off into space), scavenging wrecks for raw materials and trading with low TL natives for pretty stones that contain needed elements...

I saw an interesting programme recently that pointed out that we have less than ten years left at current usage rates of many of the rare earths used in constructing mobile phones/tablets and the like.

If such technology exists, then there is really no basis for interstellar trade in manufactured goods, just raw materials and people. Why import a tractor at high cost when with the local Maker, you produce it yourself. Also, what do you do with all of the people who used to make such things, and now no longer have employment? And if Makers technology works for food as well, why bother with hydroponics on asteroids, or agriculture in general? Just dump the needed raw materials, primarily carbon, nitrogen, and water into the Maker, and then set it to produce whatever food you want.

As I see it, Maker technology blows the game up. Tech Level becomes a meaningless relic. Import one Tech Level 15 Maker, have it replicate itself, and no more Tech Level differences.

Edit Note: It is also hard to say what it would do to the cost structure in Traveller, as basically with Maker production you are dealing with the costs of the raw materials, and whatever cost is associated with using a Maker unit. This means that some idea of what a Maker costs needs to be given, and then determine a pro-rated cost of an hour of Maker use, assuming that for efficiency, you are operating the Maker unit at as near 24 hours a day, every day of the year. Assuming a 360 year, that would be 8640 hours.

How long does it take a Maker unit to produce say, an air raft, given a unit large enough to handle an air raft? How is the Maker unit manipulating the raw materials, and how close to the finished state must they be in? Is this a case of the all of the raw material needed being placed in the Maker unit, the door shut, and several hours later an air raft emerges?

 

[infojunky]

There was an interesting discussion recently that touched on the possibilities and difficulties of constructing major items with Maker technology.

Everytime I see a question like this I have wonder what a Maker is...

Or more I realize that most people have a vastly different ideas of what one can do at home in the garage. I learned the basics of being a machinist and mechanics growing up in various garages. A fair number of my friends learned the basics the same way. So when the Entire topic of a Maker comes up I think Garage i.e. a Workshop not some magical device. Thus putting the action firmly in the characters hands rather than their devices...

In the end it comes down to Materials more than the Machinery. I find the Red light flashin and the request for 55 grams of weapons grade Sapphire analog is a much more amusing adventure hook...

Answering the question more directly, Yes I have had Adventures based on the Characters using tools to build pivotal bit of gear. Hech I ran a campaign where the PC's Workshop was the source of all their advanced gear as well as largely responsible for keeping a small fleet of Ships flying. Most of the adventures centered around getting the right raw materials and/or salvage to meet the their goals....

 

[mike wightman]

If such technology exists, then there is really no basis for interstellar trade in manufactured goods, just raw materials and people.

Why does any TL9+ world with a decent population base need to trade for anything anyway?
At that TL you can harvest the resources of anything and everything in the system

Why import a tractor at high cost when with the local Maker, you produce it yourself.

Perhaps you want a higher TL model than can be produced locally, do you own a TV set that can be manufactured locally?

Also, what do you do with all of the people who used to make sure things, and now no longer have employment?

Canonically this is a recognised issue - you offer them a trip to a colony world.

And if Makers technology works for food as well, why bother with hydroponics on asteroids, or agriculture in general? Just dump the needed raw materials, primarily carbon, nitrogen, and water into the Maker, and then set it to produce whatever food you want.

Maker, advanced hydroponics, vat grown protein - all the same thing.

As I see it, Maker technology blows the game up. Tech Level becomes a meaningless relic. Import one Tech Level 15 Maker, have it replicate itself, and no more Tech Level differences.

IMHO having TL15 industrial high population worlds that export billions of tons of manufactured goods to surrounding subsectors should have more of an impact on how people see the game than most do.
Besides the TL15 worlds want to maintain their advantage out on the frontier.

Edit Note: It is also hard to say what it would do to the cost structure in Traveller, as basically with Maker production you are dealing with the costs of the raw materials, and whatever cost is associated with using a Maker unit. This means that some idea of what a Maker costs needs to be given, and then determine a pro-rated cost of an hour of Maker use, assuming that for efficiency, you are operating the Maker unit at as near 24 hours a day, every day of the year. Assuming a 360 year, that would be 8640 hours.

Makers require templates - someone has to design those templates - cost
Makers require raw materials that have been refined - cost
Makers require energy to function - cost
Makers require supervision and instruction - cost
Add up those costs, add a profit margin and you have your item unit cost.
Or do what has been done for nearly everything in the game - you make up a cost based on the existing equipment tables. So the cost of a TL12 air/raft is what it is - it's just assembled by a maker.
The makers would have to be offline for a while - they would need repair, maintenance etc just like any machine does.

How long does it take a Maker unit to produce say, an air raft, given a unit large enough to handle an air raft? How is the Maker unit manipulating the raw materials, and how close to the finished state must they be in? Is this a case of the all of the raw material needed being placed in the Maker unit, the door shut, and several hours later an air raft emerges?

Those questions are best answered by the game designer of individual referee.
Manipulation of materials is done as it is today only better with the added benefits of gravitic technology and then at higher TLs damper technology.
My answer is 1-6 hours per displacement ton for a vehicle maker to manufacture a vehicle of its TL depending on th4e size and complexity of the vehicle.

 

[Reban]

In answer to Ulsyus and in the interest of furthering debate on the subject here are my thoughts on Makers.


- First of all maker technology is a real world technology that is developing fast. It includes a number of techniques such as additive manufacturing, also known as 3D printing where material is added to build up a component, CNC machining, which takes material away, and other material deposition or subtraction techniques.

For the purpose of this discussion I'm going to ignore nanotechnology, because 1). we're talking about macro scale products and 2) Nanotech is not a big feature in Traveller.

The fabricator that can produce what the hero needs is a common Sci-fi trope and McGuffin.

Makers are part of the OTU based on their inclusion in T5 and Agent of the Imperium.


From what I read, and from what i can reason using common sense I can say the following:

- Makers are not Star Trek Replicators. They cannot change raw matter into a finished product with no in between steps.

- Makers can reproduce themselves. The Makershop carried aboard the ISS in the Coreward of the Imperium chapter of AoI takes about a week to replicate itself.

- Makers in the Imperium may be restricted. Control codes and self destruct sequences suggest only authorized users have access to them.

- Makers require a Template of what they are meant to produce. As mentioned in the other thread a template must be more than just schematics of the parts and how they fit together. the template must be complete instructions for the Maker to complete the manufacturing process.

- Templates can be altered within certain parameters. In AoI the Agent calls on ship crews several times to provide items such as a jacket marked "Agent" which would naturally be tailored to him.

- Makers require materials. I doubt you can feed an asteroid in one end and get a FusionPlus out the other end. Processed materials, specialist components, and complete sub-assemblies are probably required (and therefore generate trade in those parts).

- Makers do not replace Skills. Makers are a tool for Engineers and others to use.

- Templates require designers with skills to design and program the template.


A Makershop is not a replacement for a workshop, it is complimentary. Page 303 of T5.09 on Table 20 Starship Compartments has both Makers V and Worshops W listed.

How does it work? Well I envisage the authorized user selects the proper template for an item and alters any adjustable parameters to his requirements.

The software in the Makershop calculates the requirements. At this point it may draw materials from reservoirs or components and sub-assemblies from the ships stores.

The Makershop may 3D print or machine the parts and components. Maybe it is equipped robot manipulators that can assemble these parts or maybe it guides an operator through the assembly process.

A Maker is not a box that spits out products it is a workshop that uses automated and non-tradition tools and manufacturing processes.

Makers do not replace factories and production lines. On board ship they're used to provide parts and items that are too bulky or unusual to carry "just in case" they are needed.

As part of the game they allow a Player to request unusual and item from the Referee:
Player on a ship infested with Tribbles in jump space: "I need a shotgun with a folding stock that can fire the weird caliber anti-Tribble ammunition that we've been carrying as speculative cargo"
Ref (Consulting GunMaker) "Okay that'll cost you CrXXX and it'll be ready for pick-up in the Makershop on deck five in 48 Hours".
Player forty-nine hours later: "I need the Makershop to produce more hull patches"
Ref: "Sorry the required materials aren't available" insert referee evil grin.

 

[whartung]

It's a matter of the efficiency of the Maker.

Right now, for example, nobody uses "3D printing" in what we consider conventional manufacturing. It's far cheaper to tool up specific systems to make product than to use a generic device.

It may well be cheaper to import a mass produced tractor than print one locally. However, at the same time, it may well be cheaper to use a Maker to make a replacement part than get a new one.

The point about expertise in assembly is important as well. Having a box of parts is different from being able to assemble them properly. Now, you may well have Franks Tractor Shop that's skilled it Making tractors and other equipment, manufactured locally via Maker technology. But, at some point of scale, it will be more efficient to mass produce parts than using the Maker tech.

You can think of Makers like a color Ink Jet printer at the house. Useful for many projects, but at some point you're going to head off to the Copy Shop and have them do it. And even beyond that, you may contract with an actual printer, sending proofs, paying setup charges, etc. if you have to go even higher volume.

 

[Timerover51]

It looks like my thinking is so far away from the rest of the forum that I am out of the discussion.

 

[mike wightman]

[Aside]
Traveller's default setting is not the near future, it is the 57th century.

We may be able to imagine what TL8 or 9 my be like, but by TL10 you are entering the realm of A.C. Clarke, it's just that the setting never showed us what TLs much above 10-12 would be like.

TL 8/9 grants gravitic technology and fusion energy - your 3d printer/CNC machine can now work in zero g even on a planet so you can assemble stuff with greater versatility and energy is not an issue.
TL12 grants control over nuclear forces - another technology that has not been fully explored but should result in the ability to manufacture any isotope of any possible element up to the limits of the extended periodic table.

Marc's novel relies on wafer technology - being able to download all the memories and the personality someone into a storage medium that may then be run on a computer or downloaded onto another person.

We are not in Kansas anymore Dorothy
[/Aside]

 

[Ulsyus]

It's a matter of the efficiency of the Maker.

Right now, for example, nobody uses "3D printing" in what we consider conventional manufacturing. It's far cheaper to tool up specific systems to make product than to use a generic device.

It may well be cheaper to import a mass produced tractor than print one locally. However, at the same time, it may well be cheaper to use a Maker to make a replacement part than get a new one.

The point about expertise in assembly is important as well. Having a box of parts is different from being able to assemble them properly. Now, you may well have Franks Tractor Shop that's skilled it Making tractors and other equipment, manufactured locally via Maker technology. But, at some point of scale, it will be more efficient to mass produce parts than using the Maker tech.

You can think of Makers like a color Ink Jet printer at the house. Useful for many projects, but at some point you're going to head off to the Copy Shop and have them do it. And even beyond that, you may contract with an actual printer, sending proofs, paying setup charges, etc. if you have to go even higher volume.

All fair points. The technology of Making in the high tech sector is becoming embedded though, and likely won't be doing much other than advancing.

Getting back to the Traveller universe though, have any of you introduced anything like the nanofactory that was available in CP2020, or was that a leap too far?

 

[Timerover51]

[Aside]
Traveller's default setting is not the near future, it is the 57th century.

We may be able to imagine what TL8 or 9 my be like, but by TL10 you are entering the realm of A.C. Clarke, it's just that the setting never showed us what TLs much above 10-12 would be like.

TL 8/9 grants gravitic technology and fusion energy - your 3d printer/CNC machine can now work in zero g even on a planet so you can assemble stuff with greater versatility and energy is not an issue.
TL12 grants control over nuclear forces - another technology that has not been fully explored but should result in the ability to manufacture any isotope of any possible element up to the limits of the extended periodic table.

Marc's novel relies on wafer technology - being able to download all the memories and the personality someone into a storage medium that may then be run on a computer or downloaded onto another person.

We are not in Kansas anymore Dorothy
[/Aside]

As I said, my thinking is not anywhere near that. IF that is the way Traveller and the forum are going, I suspect that any more visits here will be extremely infrequent. And thanks a lot for the flame.

 

[mike wightman]

It's not meant as a flame - I apologise is that is how it has come across.

The 3I setting is far far future, MWM's vision of the 3I in his novel was revelatory in my eyes in that Traveller is not stuck in the room sized computer and death during character generation tropes that many criticize it for.

What strikes me is that the setting - the T5 rules - have the potential for a transhumanist setting along the veins of GURPS THS, Eclipse Phase and the like.

But, and it's a very important but, the 3I setting maintains humanity as we understand it.

Maker technology in T5 and AotI is now 3I fact, but so is human nature as we understand it. That is what has renewed my fascination with the setting.

 

[Reban]

TL 8/9 grants gravitic technology and fusion energy - your 3d printer/CNC machine can now work in zero g even on a planet so you can assemble stuff with greater versatility and energy is not an issue.

Thats a good point!

Expensive materials produced in zero-g can be produced in planetary environments.

When grav tech comes in a Makershop could manipulate, hold and clamp things without physically touching an object. Or should that wait until Tractor Pressers come in at TL16? Its operations are described as "remote manipulation".

 

[whartung]

Most certainly, I have not read T5, nor the novel, so I honestly don't know how Maker technology is portrayed.

As it is, I project what my little Pooh brain can based on what we've seen so far in what is popularly called "3D printing".

Despite A. C. Clarke admonishment, I think it's a laudable goal, even given it's "high technology" to try and keep things from being "magic".

And Maker Tech I think can easily be extrapolated to something akin to magic. Diamond Age kind of stuff.

Historically, we've kept Traveller to a sort of Firefly, "1980's with Fusion power" kind of world.

The trans-humanist aspects are one thing, but simply dealing with a post-scarcity economy and society are another.

Already we're having difficulty imaging a world where many mundane tasks are automated, as automation continues to advance.

But we've had automation on a large scale for some time, due to the costs and complexities of automation. There are machines that can make a pumpkin pie. Well, I should say there are machines that can make 1000's of pumpkin pies, but not a single pie. It also can't easily turn around and make an apple pie. I can do that, I can make both an apple pie and a pumpkin pie in a couple hours.

However, with the machine, it seems the limit of human interaction is dumping bags of flour (large bags) along with other ingredients in to hoppers. The interactions with my pies are a bit more intimate.

As for Makers, right now we can "print" solid metal objects (there's a famous example of someone printing a .45 pistol, I don't see to recall if they printed the barrel or not -- but I think even that is possible). But the characteristics of "printed" metal is quite different from machined metal, or cast metal, or forged metal.

But what if there is a localized, very intense gravitic field within the Maker? Perhaps that can be used to simulate forging.

Today, you could 3D print linked chains, which is pretty neat when you think about it. The idea of printing a linked items, a ball in a box, or a Ship in a Bottle. But our current material limitations wouldn't let us put any real load on that chain I don't think.

Also, we're discussing the limitations of not just manufacture, but assembly, etc. But I think if we're able to create Makers, having autonomous machines able to cope spatially and having appropriate manipulators or bits, sockets, or drivers, should be able to assembly anything they're told to. Now your ship engineers are there to second guess the machines, there to add context to the fabrication task that the machine may not be able to grasp.

Note, I'm not using any terms like AI here. As we've learned so far, anything we've called "AI" in the past is really not much more than an interesting, task specific, sorting algorithm. The problems now is that we have general learning algorithms that we train. We don't tell the software how to, say, identify a table lamp. Rather we show them thousands of "things that might be lamps" and give it treats when it guesses correctly.

But to that end, after the training, we can't look at the data and say "Ah, yes, see here? Lamp". We're in the age of "not knowing how it works".

So, despite every reason for the future to be some kind of low scarcity, heavily automated society (at least as it evolves, if not by choice), Traveller is still "shotguns in space".

We like our technology to bring convenience to our lives, but not to make us redundant, or worse.

"Why am I paying someone for +4 Broker when there's a app for that?"

Or, "Yea, this is another AAA Scenario. An automated Scout ship was sent to a system, where it was projected to deploy 50 drones in order to perform a 6 month mapping and data gathering mission of the 4th planet before returning. It's latest update is overdue, and our automated recall ship has not returned either. So, neither seems to not be responding, so we need you to go out there and tow then back home."

"Recall ship?" "Yes, we send those out to essentially Ctrl-Alt-Delete the Scout ship and tell it to come home."

 

[Timerover51]

It's not meant as a flame - I apologise is that is how it has come across.

The 3I setting is far far future, MWM's vision of the 3I in his novel was revelatory in my eyes in that Traveller is not stuck in the room sized computer and death during character generation tropes that many criticize it for.

What strikes me is that the setting - the T5 rules - have the potential for a transhumanist setting along the veins of GURPS THS, Eclipse Phase and the like.

But, and it's a very important but, the 3I setting maintains humanity as we understand it.

Maker technology in T5 and AotI is now 3I fact, but so is human nature as we understand it. That is what has renewed my fascination with the setting.

I call it a flame.

 

[aramis]

Makers combine 3D printing, automated machining system, an advanced polymer chem lab, and an automated assembly plant. In a box.

 

[Reban]

Most certainly, I have not read T5, nor the novel, so I honestly don't know how Maker technology is portrayed.

As it is, I project what my little Pooh brain can based on what we've seen so far in what is popularly called "3D printing".

Despite A. C. Clarke admonishment, I think it's a laudable goal, even given it's "high technology" to try and keep things from being "magic".

And Maker Tech I think can easily be extrapolated to something akin to magic. Diamond Age kind of stuff.

I don't think it is portrayed as magic or Diamond Age. I hope I've argued clearly that its not nanotech magic in a box but rather an extrapolation of what we can do now.

An important point on hows its portrayed: Its a lot like how Traveller treats high tech robots; they're there, they ubiquitous in high tech societies, and most importantly they blend into the background (to allow us the players to roleplay).

The trans-humanist aspects are one thing, but simply dealing with a post-scarcity economy and society are another.

Already we're having difficulty imaging a world where many mundane tasks are automated, as automation continues to advance.

But we've had automation on a large scale for some time, due to the costs and complexities of automation. There are machines that can make a pumpkin pie. Well, I should say there are machines that can make 1000's of pumpkin pies, but not a single pie. It also can't easily turn around and make an apple pie. I can do that, I can make both an apple pie and a pumpkin pie in a couple hours.

I don't think the presence of makers or automation implies post scarcity.

I think Makers and automation fill niches. We can probably automate any task, but that doesn't imply it will be done better. I'd much rather have a handmade (by human hands) pumpkin pie than one that slides out of a food fab or off a production line.

Makers are there for when you can't pop to the store to pick up an important replacement part or you need a specially designed gun, or when your expanding Imperium needs to become the exclusive supplier of cheap fusion power.

But what if there is a localized, very intense gravitic field within the Maker? Perhaps that can be used to simulate forging.

I like that. If I recall correctly aren't superdense materials in Traveller made by collapsing metals in grav fields?

Today, you could 3D print linked chains, which is pretty neat when you think about it. The idea of printing a linked items, a ball in a box, or a Ship in a Bottle. But our current material limitations wouldn't let us put any real load on that chain I don't think.

Also, we're discussing the limitations of not just manufacture, but assembly, etc. But I think if we're able to create Makers, having autonomous machines able to cope spatially and having appropriate manipulators or bits, sockets, or drivers, should be able to assembly anything they're told to. Now your ship engineers are there to second guess the machines, there to add context to the fabrication task that the machine may not be able to grasp.

I'm definetly opposed to the idea that a finished gun with all its moving parts drops out of the Maker slot into the Player's hands. It keeps my suspension of disbelief intact if a Player with the appropriate Skill gets the parts and has to do the final assembly on them.

So, despite every reason for the future to be some kind of low scarcity, heavily automated society (at least as it evolves, if not by choice), Traveller is still "shotguns in space".

We like our technology to bring convenience to our lives, but not to make us redundant, or worse.

I agree with you completely. I think most travellers have out run the comfortable low scarcity core to live on the frontier of society as it expands, where there's still a need for a shotgun, but one place to get a shotgun is out of a Maker (or a gun store, or by mail order, from a factory or the cold dead hands of a Zho).

"Why am I paying someone for +4 Broker when there's a app for that?"

Well in the OTU you don't necessarily have access to that app. In AoI access to Makershops is Implied to be exclusive to Imperial Services and Imperial Clients, at least the ones that have templates for FusionPlus units.

Going through a Broker will probably get you a better deal. Makers without restriction imply convience and convenience implies extra cost.

I call it a flame.

I took it as a reminder to us all that Traveller deals with some very high technology that challenges us to use our imaginations.

Makers combine 3D printing, automated machining system, an advanced polymer chem lab, and an automated assembly plant. In a box.

Excellent detail Aramis; an advanced polymer chem lab allows you to make up required materials from basic chemical stock. You only need to stock and replenish the basic chemicals and not keep a wide range of different materials on hand just in case you need them.

 

[Reban]

Setting some limits

In the absence of official rules can we flesh out what a Makershop is and the limits to what a Maker can do?

Looking at the ACS chapter on p.304 "Makers" appears on Table 20 Starship Compartments, so thats a good place to start fleshing it out.

Volume
We know compartments come in set tonnages from the Ship sheets on p.317. So suppose Makershops come in compartment sized volumes with the individual Makers in sub-compartment tonnages.

Most Makershops will be 100dtons and contain six 16dton Makers.

(This is a bit rigid but probably gives a useful guide)

Lets say a Maker can produce a finished object half its size. So for example a 16dton maker could build an 8dton truck.

We know a Maker can reproduce itself so lets assume that a Maker can produce objects bigger than half its own volume by producing the components and having them assembled in a workshop, a hanger, empty cargo hold or other large work space.

Cost
Staying with ACS on p.307 under fitted payload: "Sophisticated tonnage (routinely used; furnished with custom equipment) such as Labs, Workspaces costs MCr1.0 per ton.". I think that covers Makershops.

Suppose we assume that cost represents a fully stocked Makershop that has all the materials it might need on hand.

When it produces an object through GunMaker, VehicleMaker, or Thingmaker processes it expends materials equal to the cost of the object. Once it depletes its stores it must be recharged with materials from a Starport

(We can restrict that more by saying the materials stored in the Makershop are only equal to half its cost, and/or making refills for Makershops only available at A and B class Starports).

Base TL
The Base TL of a Maker and Makershop is what? I'm very open to suggestions on this one. If Cleon I used Makers to spread FusionPlus and expand the first Imperium we could say Base TL=11 or that they were Experimental versions and Makers have a Base TL of TL14....

But we are seeing very early versions of Makers at TL8 so maybe TL11 is correct?

Power
Makers and Makershops are self powered with FusionPlus modules

Templates
Makers can only produce objects they have a Template for. How do we handle this? One option is that anything capable of being produced via GunMaker, VehicleMaker or ThingMaker exists in the database of a Maker. That appeals to me.

An alternative is that a Template for any item can be bought or designed.

Design requires the designer to make a skill check with the Designer Skill.

Proprietary brandname designs could come as limited use Templates. Buy a Template from Ling Standard Products for an Air/raft and its good for only one use. Buy and extended licence and produce four or more....

How much does a Template cost? 10% of the product cost?

Time
How long does a Maker take to produce an object?

Control Codes
Attempting to use a Maker without the proper control Codes results in a massive explosition.

Any other thoughts?

 

[Original_Carl]

I played with Makers in my last big T5 game. I think they added a lot to the campaign and the setting I envisioned. They did not break the game -- at least, they didn't break mine. Your results may differ.

My inspiration for makers in T5 came from Warren Ellis' Transmetropolitan and Joe Haldeman's Forever Peace.

I've been reading a lot of SciFi again lately (both new and old) and what I notice about the most successful stories is that the authors don't try to explain a whole lot about the technology. The first book to really slam that home was Dune. Herbert doesn't try to explain anything. He just lays it out: Navigators, Bene Gesserits, Sappho Juice, Ornithopters and Gurney Halleck's 9-string balliset. It's similar with E.C. Tubb's Dumarest books. So in that spirit, I came up with some usage guidelines and avoided explaining how they work at all.

Rule 1: Imperial Makers consume Credits to make things.
This keeps the capital flowing and provides a handy sink for all those extra Credits your players have laying around.

Rule 2: Imperial Makers consume only Imperial Credits.
You can't use other materials in an Imperial maker, nor may an Imperial maker be modified to use other materials -- note that in T5, that makes it "Impossible" so roll a bunch of dice and hope you don't produce a singularity.

Rule 3: The size of the maker limits what it can produce.
Makers come in Small, Medium, and Large. Small makers are about the size of a microwave oven (TL 7). Medium makers are the size of sub-compact car (like a Smart). Large makers -- we never came across one, but I imagined that they would be the size of a large shipping container.

They can also be "Industrial" or "Military" or "Civilian" I used those descriptors to determine what could be produced by a given maker. Every ACS had a small maker. Every BCS had a medium maker. Most installations had a medium maker. Factories, military bases, and Class A starports had large makers. High TL (14+), Class A starports used makers to manufacture starships. The biggest differences between these makers were they patterns they came loaded with.

Rule 4: The complexity of the item determines how long it takes to be produced.
This was a lot of handwavium, and I probably abused the Flux dice, but to keep it simple I used a d6 + Flux to determine time span. Basic sustenance took seconds (Maker! Make me a sandwich!). Mechanical stuff took minutes, Electronic stuff took hours, complex stuff could take days, or weeks. Theoretically, you could use a small maker to produce a Scout/Courier but it would take a long, long time to print out the parts and assemble them. The bigger the maker, the faster it produced stuff.

Rule 5: You can load a maker with your own Designs.
This was my player agency rule. Computer skill allowed you to load patterns on a maker. Designer allowed you to develop new patterns, and Programmer allowed you to modify existing patterns.

Rule 6: A maker can potentially produce anything -- even another maker -- that isn't "living"
With enough Designer skill, Programmer skill and Computer skill, you could produce anything up to the tech level of the maker. It is not possible to produce a living animal with a maker. At least no maker that my group ever came across...

It's difficult for me to imagine a SciFi game without maker technology anymore. It would seem anachronistic.

-Carl

 

[Ulsyus]

Cost
Staying with ACS on p.307 under fitted payload: "Sophisticated tonnage (routinely used; furnished with custom equipment) such as Labs, Workspaces costs MCr1.0 per ton.". I think that covers Makershops.

Suppose we assume that cost represents a fully stocked Makershop that has all the materials it might need on hand.

If you want, but are there many advanced systems that can be bought now that come fully stocked? Cartridges for a printer/plotter, okay. Sticks for a hot glue gun, no worries. But sufficient advanced materials to be able to build a car? That could require a lot of different materials, so I'm not sure I'd be so generous to my players by giving that to them freely.

Additionally, a Maker may be spitting something out that is not constructed using scales of economies as seen in conventional manufacturing techniques. Sure, it's convenient, and they can make components that would be constructed from several sub-elements previously. So maybe making things on demand could be more expensive, at least up until V High TLs when all the materials are collected by an automated process so everything's more readily available.

(We can restrict that more by saying the materials stored in the Makershop are only equal to half its cost, and/or making refills for Makershops only available at A and B class Starports).

If the technology is widely available, the availability of the materials may depend on each world separately. High Law Levels? Material and tech restricted. Lower TLs? Now it's restricted to the starport.

Base TL
The Base TL of a Maker and Makershop is what? I'm very open to suggestions on this one. If Cleon I used Makers to spread FusionPlus and expand the first Imperium we could say Base TL=11 or that they were Experimental versions and Makers have a Base TL of TL14....

But we are seeing very early versions of Makers at TL8 so maybe TL11 is correct?

We're seeing bits of Makers now, but the whole thing could be seen as the maturation of a number of technologies and then finally being combined into a single item.

Makers combine 3D printing, automated machining system, an advanced polymer chem lab, and an automated assembly plant. In a box.

So maybe you're right and they pop in now at TL11. I think I may be inclined to go with 12 or 13, so that at TL9 comes the earliest experimental units that combine all the components Aramis mentioned.

Power
Makers and Makershops are self powered with FusionPlus modules

Why? Especially if we want to give the Engineer character plenty of geeky tech action installing and connecting up the Reghus Model VII Heavy Ship Components Maker in the cargo hold of their ship...

Control Codes
Attempting to use a Maker without the proper control Codes results in a massive explosition.

I hate explositions, but wouldn't it be more likely to only have that sort of failure on a particularly bad flux roll after failing the operating the thing by a massive margin on a dice roll?

Any other thoughts?

Yes but it's getting late. Great list there!