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Magic and Sci-Fi

Jame

SOC-14 5K
I've long been thinking of writing up a magic system for Traveller, based primarily on GURPS 3rd Edition Magic, and I have two questions.

First, is there anything I'd have to do to get permission to convert it? Especially since I'm thinking about possibly publishing it?

and

Second, what is the general thought on using magic in a technological setting? My fiancee thinks it won't work because one "will" or "has to" overpower the other. That is, if you have tech and develop magic, your tech will stop advancing, or if you have magic and develop tech, the tech will cause magic to die out. Is there a way to integrate magic and tech without either stopping the other?
 
I've been toying around with a variant of this idea. My thought is to merge a bit of the ideas from Harry Turtledove's The Road Not Taken with a bit of John Ringo's Legacy of the Aldenate.

With this idea, the scientific method, while necessary for technology as we know it, hits a rather insurmountable stumbling block in the application of macro scale effects from quantum theory. That is to say, the scientific method yields a 'hard' scifi tech base with no magitech, handwavium, or unobtainium.

In this, the gravitics technology from The Road Not Taken comes not from technology but from mysticism in the form of an Indowy like handcrafted manufacturing technique. An important difference from both The Road Not Taken and the Legacy of the Aldenata series is that I propose that mysticism cannot coexist psychologically with the scientific method. In fact, I'm taking it a bit further than psychology alone and extended it to a cultural, and even racial, incompatibility.

This would possibly take the form of a technological (scientific method) based humanity in partnership (for reasons and by methods yet to be determined) with an alien pseduo-Indowy race which pursues mysticism. Many Traveller technologies require elements of both - Jump drive being a prominent example. In this extreme Traveller variant, psionics would not exist except possibly as some form of mystic based tech.

In the above described setting, magic aka mysticism exists primarily (only?) as a manufacturing process, although there would be huge cultural and psychological differences between races dependent upon which 'road' they followed in addition to all other differences due to being.. well.. alien.

Another way of bringing magic into Traveller is to simply re-describe psionics. You could even provide for ritual based magic by adding rules to allow telepaths to work together ala Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series. Depending upon how much work you put into it, copyright would be a non-issue.
 
I guess you'd have to be thoughtful in how you integrate it.

A general issue I have is that magic settings seem to require everyone to have magic. I don't know how to overcome that, except perhaps to limit magic.

Meanwhile, in the SF setting, tech sort of requires everyone to have tech.

SO in order to survive in such a setting, does one need tech AND magic? How do they interact?
 
I guess you'd have to be thoughtful in how you integrate it.

Substituting magic for psionics, the Darkover series shows at least one way of integrating the two. Similarly the OTU shows two ways when you look at the underground psionics institutes within the Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate.

To me, psionics and magic are just two words with pretty much the same meaning.
 
Clarke's 3rd law of prediction - 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.'

Permission - query the rights holders.
 
Thieves' World by Chaosium had rules for magic in Traveller (or explainations). IMTU, psionics is as close as it gets to magic.
 
My favorite setting for a Magic Sci-Fi mix is the Lord Darcy series by Randall Garett. It's the mid-late 20th century (70's) science is 1890's so it is delayed.
Wikipedia has a quick article about the series here.
There are some books about the mix in DriveThurRPG
 
SO in order to survive in such a setting, does one need tech AND magic? How do they interact?

See "Sheewash Drive", The Witches of Karres (James H. Schmitz, 1966).

http://www.bookloons.com/cgi-bin/Review.asp?bookid=1883
"The Witches of Karres" was written originally during 1949 as a novelette, and has been reprinted many times. This version was included in The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Volume Two as one of the best novellas up to 1965.

Schmitz expanded it into a novel in 1966 by writing three more novelettes.

The first voice said distinctly, “Shall we just leave it on?”

A second voice, considerably more muffled, replied, “Yes, let’s! You never know when you need it—”

The third voice, tucked somewhere in between them, said simply, “Whew!”

Peering about in bewilderment, the captain realized suddenly that the voices had come from the speaker of the ship’s intercom connecting the control room with what had once been the Venture’s captain’s cabin.

He listened; but only a dim murmuring was audible now, and then nothing at all. He started towards the passage, returned and softly switched off the intercom. He went quietly down the passage until he came to the captain’s cabin. Its door was closed.

He listened a moment, and opened it suddenly.

There was a trio of squeals:

“Oh, don’t! You spoiled it!”

The captain stood motionless. Just one glimpse had been given him of what seemed to be a bundle of twisted black wires arranged loosely like the frame of a truncated cone on — or was it just above? — a table in the center of the cabin. Above the wires, where the tip of the cone should have been, burned a round, swirling orange fire. About it, their faces reflecting its glow, stood the three witches.

Then the fire vanished; the wires collapsed. There was only ordinary light in the room. They were looking up at him variously — Maleen with smiling regret, the Leewit in frank annoyance, Goth with no expression at all.

“What out of Great Patham’s Seventh Hell was that?” inquired the captain, his hair bristling slowly.

The Leewit looked at Goth; Goth looked at Maleen. Maleen said doubtfully, “We can just tell you its name…”

“That was the Sheewash Drive,” said Goth.

“The what drive?” asked the captain.

“Sheewash,” repeated Maleen.

“The one you have to do it with yourself,” the Leewit added helpfully.

“Shut up,” said Maleen.

There was a long pause. The captain looked down at the handful of thin, black, twelve-inch wires scattered about the table top. He touched one of them. It was dead cold.

“I see,” he said. “I guess we’re all going to have a long talk.” Another pause. “Where are we now?”

“About two light-weeks down the way you were going,” said Goth. “We only worked it thirty seconds.”

“Twenty-eight,” corrected Maleen, with the authority of her years. “The Leewit was getting tired.”

“I see,” said Captain Pausert carefully. “Well, let’s go have some breakfast.”

They ate with a silent voraciousness, dainty Maleen, the exquisite Leewit, supple Goth, all alike. The captain, long finished, watched them with amazement and — now at last — with something like awe.

“It’s the Sheewash Drive,” explained Maleen finally, catching his expression.

“Takes it out of you!” said Goth.

The Leewit grunted affirmatively and stuffed on.

“Can’t do too much of it,” said Maleen. “Or too often. It kills you sure!”

“What,” said the captain, “is the Sheewash Drive?”

They became reticent. Karres people did it, said Maleen, when they had to go somewhere fast. Everybody knew how there. “But of course,” she added, “we’re pretty young to do it right.”

“We did it pretty clumping good!” the Leewit contradicted positively. She seemed to be finished at last.

“But how?” said the captain.

Reticence thickened almost visibly. If you couldn’t do it, said Maleen, you couldn’t understand it either.

He gave it up, for the time being.

“We’ll have to figure out how to take you home next,” he said; and they agreed.
* * *

Karres, it developed, was in the Iverdahl System. He couldn’t find any planet of that designation listed in his maps of the area, but that meant nothing. The maps weren’t always accurate, and local names changed a lot.
 
Just a personal opinion, but science and magic should NEVER be mixed. I hate it in fiction and I hate it in games.

Clarke-ism and psionics are the absolute limit - and even then, very very sparingly.

YMMV, of course.
 
Just a personal opinion, but science and magic should NEVER be mixed. I hate it in fiction and I hate it in games.

Clarke-ism and psionics are the absolute limit - and even then, very very sparingly.

YMMV, of course.

It does. Science and magic is difficult to pull off, but not impossible. Heinlein's Magic, Inc. and Anderson's Operation Chaos are both excellent stories as are all of Garrett's Lord D'Arcy stories, and although I've never played in a GURPS:Technomancer campaign, the book looked very promising to me.


Hans
 
Just a personal opinion, but science and magic should NEVER be mixed. I hate it in fiction and I hate it in games.

Clarke-ism and psionics are the absolute limit - and even then, very very sparingly.

YMMV, of course.

I use a restatement of Clarke's law (axiom?)

"Science is the name we give to miracles we understand, sorcery is the name we give those we don't"

When I (very very rarely) mix magic with sci-fi, it normally goes by the name of "probability physics." That is manipulating the laws of probability to make things happen (its a neat Sci-Fi sounding handwave basically).

It works on the premise that there is no absolute reality. Everything is just various probabilities created by interactions with other probable things and events.

ForEx, the probability that the pen on my desk is red is extremely high. However you can manipulate probability and make it green. I state it like this for players "The pen is red because the universe believes it is. Magic works by imposing your belief that the pen is green over that of the universe"
 
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@ BlackBat: Love it! ROFL


When I (very very rarely) mix magic with sci-fi, it normally goes by the name of "probability physics." That is manipulating the laws of probability to make things happen (its a neat Sci-Fi sounding handwave basically).

You're right. I'll make an exception for the Infinite Improbabliity Drive, on account of it's funny. :)
 
See "Sheewash Drive", The Witches of Karres (James H. Schmitz, 1966).

http://www.bookloons.com/cgi-bin/Review.asp?bookid=1883
"The Witches of Karres" was written originally during 1949 as a novelette, and has been reprinted many times. This version was included in The Science Fiction Hall of Fame, Volume Two as one of the best novellas up to 1965.

Schmitz expanded it into a novel in 1966 by writing three more novelettes.

Sounds pretty much like psionics. Is there a substantial difference?

I note that SpaceMaster had psionics, but the abilities were for all intents and purposes just spell lists. So is the Sheewash stuff more like psionics, or spell lists?
 
I use a restatement of Clarke's law (axiom?)

"Science is the name we give to miracles we understand, sorcery is the name we give those we don't"

When I (very very rarely) mix magic with sci-fi, it normally goes by the name of "probability physics." That is manipulating the laws of probability to make things happen (its a neat Sci-Fi sounding handwave basically).

It works on the premise that there is no absolute reality. Everything is just various probabilities created by interactions with other probable things and events.

ForEx, the probability that the pen on my desk is red is extremely high. However you can manipulate probability and make it green. I state it like this for players "The pen is red because the universe believes it is. Magic works by imposing your belief that the pen is green over that of the universe"

Hmmm, that also seems like psionics, except perhaps the ability to create a mass-illusion.
 
"Did anyone pick up the core Traveller: Prime Directive book? I'm sure that that one will mention transporters..."
 
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